94 replies to this topic

[ZooL]

it probably was a bad idea to tell lewis to slow down, and really you can only guess a gap round monaco, as you cant see through barriers...

I still can't understand why the team asked him to maintain a 6 second gap.

Surely if you wanted to maximise your chance of coming out ahead you stack up? Unless they were worried about temperatures.

Edited by ZooL, 27 May 2013 - 18:48.

[ashley313]

Can see Merc not wanting a direct stack up when they're expecting most of the field to be coming in at the same time. Busy pit lane.

Nico and Lewis went thru, SV pulled off into the pit lane from behind them. The SC was deployed about a second after SV's pit stop was completed (when the Mercs would have been somewhere near the end of S1. He came out just a couple of seconds in front of MW who had already stopped. They were the first cars to pull up to the back of the SC and were cruising behind it. Meanwhile, the Merc guys were stood outside their garage for a LONG time before Nico showed up, while the SC had already started waving people by somewhere around the hairpin. So the Red Bulls (and everyone else) are cruising around to get back while the safety car is slowly moving along letting cars go and waiting for Nico, who has emerged from the pit lane just before the released Red Bulls have come through, at single-waved-yellow speed. Meaning they were at a pretty good clip on all parts of the circuit except St Devote where there were probably double yellows for the clean up. It seems as if Nico slowed quite a bit once the SC was deployed (based on how long the Merc mechanics were waiting for him) and if they had instructed Lewis to make a 6 sec gap behind him, that backs Lewis up even further. I can't be sure, but to me it seems like it was actually Nico's fault not the team or Lewis'. Does anyone have Nico's S2 and S3 times from his in lap? That would confirm. Also explains how Nico was very very close to losing HIS position to one or both Red Bulls.

[PurpleHam]

I don't think anyone has done a thorough enough analysis, not the media, not this forum.

I haven't done it yet, but from what I've seen there was nothing that Hamilton could have done to prevent losing positions to RBR.

Buttoneer you can see from the pics that when Rosberg left the box Mercedes were not waiting anywhere near 11 seconds for Hamilton to reach the box. Hamilton could have shaved 4-5 seconds off, but some here are saying that the RBR's already went screaming past in the background while Hamilton was in the pitbox?

Davidson on Sky said Hamilton was 21secs ahead of Vettel and then Vettel made up 13secs after he was released by the safety car.

I just don't see how Hamilton could have held onto 2nd, I said at the time it looked impossible and I still think that.

[Buttoneer]

I can't be sure, but to me it seems like it was actually Nico's fault not the team or Lewis'. Does anyone have Nico's S2 and S3 times from his in lap? That would confirm. Also explains how Nico was very very close to losing HIS position to one or both Red Bulls.

Lewis went from being 2.5s to 11.5 behind between Tabac and the pitlane entrance. How could it possibly be Nico's fault?

There's a bit of room for it to be the teams fault, and a bit for it being Lewis's, to whatever degree you feel like arguing, but I see no room for this being Nico's fault at all.

[rage2]

It was not a lucky advantage, it was a good call from the pit wall by RBR. I wondered why Mercedes waited so long to call their cars to the pits. I think, Merc were very lucky not to lose P1 to the Red Bulls in that situation.

Webber made his pit stop at the end of lap 25, while Vettel made his pit stop at the end of lap 30, and Rosberg and Hamilton both completed lap 30 on track while it was still just yellow. 8 seconds after Rosberg completed his lap the safety car was called out, as Vettel just completed his pit stop. At this stage, everyone has to follow the delta. Not sure what happened at this point, but the only reason why both RBR's got past Hamilton was because Hamilton must have been driving slower than the SC delta (assuming everyone has the same sector deltas).

Prior to the safety car, Hamilton was 2 seconds behind Rosberg, but somehow, Hamilton was 11 seconds behind Rosberg going into the pits. I have no idea where Hamilton lost 9 seconds under SC deltas. Judging from Hamilton's pit exit, if he was 7 seconds faster, meaning he would've been 4 seconds behind Rosberg, he would've maintained 2nd place.

Mercedes made the right call assuming they were on a 1 stop strategy. They called both cars into the pits as soon as the SC went out. I'll go through my F1 2013 app to check sector times for both RBR and MB-AMG drivers from laps 29 to lap 32 later tonight.

Edited by rage2, 27 May 2013 - 21:48.

[prty]

Not sure I follow.

Rosberg is stationary for less than 3 seconds. It's true Rosberg has to brake coming into pits/box, but so does Hamilton, therefore Hamilton doesn't gain any 'time'. When Rosberg comes to a stop, Hamilton would still be 6 seconds behind regardless of whether that's circuit/pitlane/braking zone. When Rosberg leaves the pitbox, Hamilton is still 3 seconds behind. Isn't that 3 seconds wasted or am I missing something?

In an ideal situation Hamilton would 'tap' the back of Rosberg in the pit box, but to do this he would have to be 3 secs behind.

It's a bit hard to see yes, but picture two cars following each other at the pit lane, 3 seconds between each other. There's no way they can do a seamless consecutive pit stop with that little time: when the first car has reached the stopping place with the front of the car, still a second or so elapses until complete stop, maybe even more. The same with acceleration. If teams impose 6 seconds there is a reason.
As Hamilton showed, it is a gap hard to judge as you might lose the sight of the car in front, specially in all the blind Monaco corners.

Edited by prty, 27 May 2013 - 21:48.

[Crossmax]

I was just going to ask the same thing, I get soo confused when the SC comes out

I think that the SC was released at the 'wrong' time so missed the Mercs and only collected the RBs. But how did the bulls get back into 2nd and 3rd
Did the SC stop and wait at one point?

The Bulls were released as they weren't leading the race. The SC dropped back and let all cars pass until Rosberg caught up with it.

[rodfarva]

well the real issue here is the safety car deltas. i'm not sure how they work, but if its just a minimum lap time or sector time, then it would seem both rosberg and hamilton were too slow on their inlaps (they slowed down when they should have gone full speed like the red bulls). i think sector 3 ends at end of pitlane, so they should have been flat out really since the pit land speed limit would have kept their s3 time high anyway.

i think the evidence of this is in the lap timings, lap 31 i think.

mercedes caught napping in my opinion. they will learn from this.

[rage2]

Here's the sector times for the RBR and MB-AMG drivers:

Lap 29	S1	   S2	   S3
Rosberg   20.643   36.794   21.710
Hamilton  20.764   36.759   21.604
Vettel	20.990   36.719   21.845
Webber	21.091   37.124   21.937

Lap 30	S1	   S2	   S3
Rosberg   23.171   36.855   21.673
Hamilton  22.669   37.363   21.697
Vettel	22.630   37.311   PIT
Webber	21.582   37.184   23.596

*** SC DEPLOYED ***

Lap 31	S1	   S2	   S3
Rosberg   26.300   45.540   PIT
Hamilton  25.304   49.231   PIT
Vettel	35.030   39.075   24.062
Webber	32.675   40.263   24.995

Basically, after the SC was deployed, the RBR drivers were going way faster on track than the MB-AMG drivers in S2 alone. Vettel was 6.5s/10.2s faster than Rosberg/Hamilton, while Webber was 5.3s/9.0s faster than Rosberg/Hamilton. While the RBR cars weren't going full speed in S2, they were close to their previous laps prior to SC. Only 2s slower for Vettel, and 3s slower for Webber. A look at all drivers Lap 31 S2 times once the SC was called out:

Lap 31		S2
Rosberg	   45.540
Hamilton	  49.231
Vettel		39.075
Webber		40.263
Raikkonen	 47.747
Alonso		46.950
Button		47.322
Perez		 46.821
Sutil		 46.851
Vergne		45.178
Di Resta	  47.897
Hulkenberg	48.039
Ricciardo	 46.525
Grosjean	  56.084
Bottas		53.077
Chilton	   49.351
Gutierrez	 46.823
Maldonado	 46.448
Bianchi	   46.247
Van Der Garde 46.388

Hamilton was driving much slower than the field average of ~45-46s, while both RBR drivers were driving much faster.

Edited by rage2, 27 May 2013 - 22:35.

[Skinnyguy]

Hamilton was driving much slower than the field average of ~45-46s, while both RBR drivers were driving much faster.

Hamilton probably drove S1 to delta, and lifted then way under that delta pace to open a gap with Rosberg who was surely driving at normal delta pace.

RB drivers drove S1 way slower than delta behind SC, so they could push after that and still not get into trouble.

Funny we´re discussing how SC deployment costed Lewis two places, we should be discussing how SC deployment costed Lewis ONLY two places. Without the SC comming where it did, Lewis would have lost out way more places.

[rage2]

RB drivers drove S1 way slower than delta behind SC, so they could push after that and still not get into trouble.

No, the numbers are slightly deceiving. Vettel's 35.030 time for S1 was because it was his outlap from the pits. Webber's 32.675 in S1 was because the SC was deployed while he was in S3, and had to drive to a delta for the entire S1. You can see Webber's S3 time was slower than normal. Rosberg and Hamilton was 1/3 into S1 before the SC was deployed so the times was much faster.

Edited by rage2, 27 May 2013 - 23:37.

[EthanM]

The safety car was deployed just as Nico was arriving at S2 of lap 31. He then went almost 6 seconds slower through that sector than Seb would then do on his out lap and Mark did behind Seb. If Nico slowed down that much and Lewis was to build a gap back from Nico to allow for a smoother pit stop, then in fact Nico backed Lewis up and cost him those positions (and nearly cost himself his own) because all RBR had to do when they were released from behind the SC was give Seb a sector time slower than his green-flag time but faster than Nico's, and Mark would obviously increase his pace to stay with him.

you realize the target laptime behind the SC comes from the FIA not the teams right?

[EthanM]

It does not. If it did, why did the whole field do different times? The regs say cars are to maintain an "appropriate" speed while catching up to the safety car. It states a MINIMUM SPEED is given for each race...not a specific delta. How would the FIA determine it anyway? Even if they used a program to say "okay everyone must go 5 seconds slower per sector" how do they know which previous lap sector to subtract it from? What if one car was crawling around on the last green flag lap because it had a puncture - then the delta it has to drive to is dangerously slow, and could be below the minimum speed. Appropriate speed, based on precedent of prior allowances and penalties, is slower than your green flag sectors but faster than the minimum speed.

FWIW the Safety Car regs also include all the messages that can be shown on the dash from the FIA and NONE are lap time targets. Check for yourself.

the target laptime is universal and comes from the FIA, each specific driver's individual target laptime is calculated by the (standard) ECU based on the FIA laptime and each driver's individual GPS position on the track. And it covers a lap. If a Redbull loses 10 seconds in S1 going slower behind the SC the target remains the same, they make it up in S2 and S3. In all your analysis you detailed how much the Mercedes "lost" in S2, you forgot to account for how much the Red Bulls "lost" in S1. Compare Rosberg's and Hamilton's S1s with Webber's who wasnt in the pits

EDIT: the relevant regulation

40.7All competing cars must reduce speed and form up in line behind the safety car no more than ten car lengths apart. In order to ensure that drivers reduce speed sufficiently, from the time at which the "SAFETY CAR DEPLOYED" message is shown on the timing monitors until the time that each car crosses the first safety car line for the second time, drivers must stay above the minimum time set by the FIA ECU.

Edited by EthanM, 28 May 2013 - 00:32.

[EthanM]

you still don't get it.

The FIA determines the time of a Safety Car Lap

Each driver gets an individual target and live delta based on where he is on the lap. And there is a smoothing algorithm in place to avoid a repeat of Valencia 2010 where people on SC line were given 20 and 30 second deltas to cover 2 meters of track.

If you do your S1 in 45 seconds you can do the rest of the lap in 50 seconds. If you do your S1 in 10 seconds then you have to take 1:25 to do the rest of the lap. The teams don't interfere one iota in the process, it's all automated by the FIA. All the driver sees is a + or - and a delta on his dash, similar to quali runs. All the driver does is keep it to as small a + as possible.

Perhaps the steward's decision regarding Raikkonen's infringement will help you clear it up a bit in your head

FIA sets the time, not the team, not Nico, not Seb, the FIA

Nico's Lap 31 was 1:54.863 how the hell can he be "well over" the FIA delta when that includes a pitstop and on average everybody else's lap 31 was 1:38-1:41

Edited by EthanM, 28 May 2013 - 01:18.

[lbennie]

No, the numbers are slightly deceiving. Vettel's 35.030 time for S1 was because it was his outlap from the pits. Webber's 32.675 in S1 was because the SC was deployed while he was in S3, and had to drive to a delta for the entire S1. You can see Webber's S3 time was slower than normal. Rosberg and Hamilton was 1/3 into S1 before the SC was deployed so the times was much faster.

Both red bulls were definitely stuck behind the SC for a large chunk of S1.

[V3TT3L]

http://www1.skysport...er-in-Monaco-GP

Lewis Hamilton takes the blame for podium-costing pit-stop blunder in Monaco GP

[TTim]

We were overlooking the pits and thats it exactly what it looked like. Hamilton was just coasting in to avoid stacking up in the pits. Rosberg opened up a massive gap over the course of that lap.

I don't think there was too much they could have done differently, Redbull were lucky in that they had already stopped webber earlier.

[black magic]

why did mercedes suggest such a strategy - what possible advantage was their in letting lewis "deliberately" lose time but only the exact time required to change rosberg??

given no pitstopt is exactly the same there was only down side to this strategy. they should have left lewis where he was , he would have been paused for about 1 sec only and if by chance they were quicker than usual he was in the right place to respond - or are we to seriously believe that a f1 car risks explosion if held stationary for 4 sec - 1 sec to finish, get rosberg a way and 3 - 6 sec to get lewis tyres out.

just another dumb strategy from mercedes that lewis compounded

[EthanM]

why did mercedes suggest such a strategy - what possible advantage was their in letting lewis "deliberately" lose time but only the exact time required to change rosberg??

given no pitstopt is exactly the same there was only down side to this strategy. they should have left lewis where he was , he would have been paused for about 1 sec only and if by chance they were quicker than usual he was in the right place to respond - or are we to seriously believe that a f1 car risks explosion if held stationary for 4 sec - 1 sec to finish, get rosberg a way and 3 - 6 sec to get lewis tyres out.

just another dumb strategy from mercedes that lewis compounded

because you can't double stack in Monaco, the pitlane is too small, there isn't space in the box to double stack without (in Mercedes' case) blocking the Lotus box

[V3TT3L]

Lewis could have parked at the McLaren pit... he is always welcome there

Plus the Mercedes is like a shark... can't stp moving due to the risk of overheating.

[EthanM]

Plus the Mercedes is like a shark... can't stp moving due to the risk of overheating.

it has nothing to do with overheating, there just isn't physically enough space for two cars in the box.

This is the Alonso leaving the pits. There is barely enough space to leave if McLaren are servicing a car, if McLaren put two cars there then the Ferrari box is blocked. They just cant fit two cars in the box so they have to time them, try and get the second to arrive as the first leaves so it can slot straight in

[OfficeLinebacker]

Not sure I follow.

Rosberg is stationary for less than 3 seconds. It's true Rosberg has to brake coming into pits/box, but so does Hamilton, therefore Hamilton doesn't gain any 'time'. When Rosberg comes to a stop, Hamilton would still be 6 seconds behind regardless of whether that's circuit/pitlane/braking zone. When Rosberg leaves the pitbox, Hamilton is still 3 seconds behind. Isn't that 3 seconds wasted or am I missing something?

In an ideal situation Hamilton would 'tap' the back of Rosberg in the pit box, but to do this he would have to be 3 secs behind.

Well for one thing, don't the team have to get the next set of tyres ready? Doing two pit stops in a row is more complicated, as now you're dealing with 16 tyres instead of 8. Maybe the pit crew aren't immediately ready for the next car when the first car is done.

Secondly, after already moving at a slower than race pace speed, perhaps they are worried about overheating if standing still for too long, so it's better to take a leisurely pace (well back from Nico's hot exhaust) rather than go fast, then sit, then shoot forward 10 meters, then sit again.

Honestly, Lewis misjudged what "6 seconds" looks/feels like on the back side of the Monaco circuit. It could happen to anyone. Do you think Fernando Alonso or Kimi Raikkonen know better how six seconds, under this hybrid SC condition that existed (SC deployed but not having picked up the field) feels or looks like?

[EthanM]

Well for one thing, don't the team have to get the next set of tyres ready? Doing two pit stops in a row is more complicated, as now you're dealing with 16 tyres instead of 8. Maybe the pit crew aren't immediately ready for the next car when the first car is done.

Yes they were, Lewis' tyres were in the pitlane as Rosberg was getting service

[Szoelloe]

why did mercedes suggest such a strategy - what possible advantage was their in letting lewis "deliberately" lose time but only the exact time required to change rosberg??

given no pitstopt is exactly the same there was only down side to this strategy. they should have left lewis where he was , he would have been paused for about 1 sec only and if by chance they were quicker than usual he was in the right place to respond - or are we to seriously believe that a f1 car risks explosion if held stationary for 4 sec - 1 sec to finish, get rosberg a way and 3 - 6 sec to get lewis tyres out.

just another dumb strategy from mercedes that lewis compounded

Yeah well after Rosberg's pitstop the pitcrew was waiting for LH for 5-6 seconds. That is when he lost 2nd. Period. It was perfectly calculated, and LH still would have had a few seconds to spare to come out in front of Vettel if he would have stacked as the team told him to. Instead he lost another 6. He said so the team said so, Anthony davidson analyzed it post race and said so.

[rage2]

Yeah well after Rosberg's pitstop the pitcrew was waiting for LH for 5-6 seconds. That is when he lost 2nd. Period. It was perfectly calculated, and LH still would have had a few seconds to spare to come out in front of Vettel if he would have stacked as the team told him to. Instead he lost another 6. He said so the team said so, Anthony davidson analyzed it post race and said so.

If Lewis was there and the pit crew didn't have the wait the 5-6 seconds, Lewis would've been 3rd. He needed at least 7 seconds to clear Vettel.

[JaredS]

My problem is not claiming that Lewis has some kind of brake issue. My problem is claims like if it wasn't for said brake issue, Hamilton would be braking 10 times or whatever better than everyone else because zomg he is such a braking god. That is ridiculous.

And I am specifically referring to that quote by Mark Hughes. What he described as some kind of special skill Hamilton uses is basically trail-braking. His claim that Hamilton somehow brakes much harder and later than everyone else is laughable.

It's always the same story. Like, Hamilton would be 1 sec faster than anyone else but the tyres are holding him back...now the brakes are holding him back. It's sad. Have you considered that maybe he just isn't that great?

And every time people bring up GP2, aka amateur hour, you just have to laugh.

I fully agree with your sentiment i.e claims of Hamilton braking 10 times or whatever better zomg braking god. Except that I don't specially see such claims, rather that this might be making the tenth or two difference to his current times.

I also agree that at F1 level, the skill that Mark Hughes describes about driving a downforce car and tapering off braking force with reducing downforce and judging it just right, whilst impressive at F3 level is par for course at GP2 and F1 level.

However what Mark Hughes describes is not actually trail braking, which you seem to have confused. Trail braking is carrying the brakes into the corner and even approaching the apex i.e combining steering input with braking, which actually goes against basic theory of getting all the braking done in a straight line before starting to turn in. It's difficult to do and risky. Yes F1 drivers do it all the time, but even amongst them there is a difference between the levels they can combine braking and steering input. Trail braking causes the rear to go very light and can easily snap into oversteer. Drivers that aren't comfortable with an unstable rear and confident in their ability to feel and catch it won't be able to do it as well as those who are very comfortable with oversteer under braking.

I think Hughes claim that Lewis brakes later than most is reasonably accurate. He tends to do very, very well on the hard braking tracks such as Canada where he tends to find chunks of time compared to his team mates generally being anywhere from half a second to 1 second a lap quicker, even almost half a second quicker than Alonso in 2007. The coming race in Canada will be a good indicator, because if he's comfortable with the brakes and car then he's going to be very quick - it's quite simply his specialty track. If Nico is quicker in quali there, that would be pretty telling really.

I still don't see it the way you do though - as it being some sort of excuse for him. It quite simply isn't. It's his responsibility to work with his engineers and find a solution. That is afterall one of the reasons he moved to Merc, for the new challenge and growth.

[ayanate]

Upon reflection - good work all round from Merc this weekend. Nico just squeaked through with a faster time on Saturday for pole, and that was it. He controlled the race and won at a canter.

Lewis was less than a 10th from taking pole and the race win, but he still did a great job on Saturday. On Sunday there was nothing he could really do - its Monaco, you can't overtake, and there's no point trying to harass the guy in front as you'll only burn your own tyres up. Maybe Lewis could have been a bit sharper under the SC, but I don't know how clear the direction from the team was and in any case I don't think he could have got out ahead of the Red Bulls.Nico has generally been very strong in quali for the past 3 years, and proven he can win a race pole to flag. I think he is pretty equal to Lewis in terms of quali speed, and so far maybe has the Merc set up a bit better. Its very close.

Watched the Monaco race again last night, Lewis lost negligible time after Nico was released from his stop. Mark Webber went almost full speed past the pit exit as Lewis was just starting to build up speed, so a couple of seconds extra at most that could have been gained from stacking up behind Nico would not have brought him out in front of either Red Bulls. Mercedes should have radioed Nico and Lewis to speed up as quickly as allowed for their pitstops, that's the only way they could have kept the one-two for the remainder of the race. I really would like to know what exactly pitstop strategists are doing when they make these fundamental errors, shocking really!

All in all, Lewis was blameless. Although I also think he should be asking these questions during the race and not be so passive and totally rely on directives from the team. We saw this at Mclaren and he is repeating the same bad habit at Mercedes.

[trogggy]

Watched the Monaco race again last night, Lewis lost negligible time after Nico was released from his stop. Mark Webber went almost full speed past the pit exit as Lewis was just starting to build up speed, so a couple of seconds extra at most that could have been gained from stacking up behind Nico would not have brought him out in front of either Red Bulls. Mercedes should have radioed Nico and Lewis to speed up as quickly as allowed for their pitstops, that's the only way they could have kept the one-two for the remainder of the race. I really would like to know what exactly pitstop strategists are doing when they make these fundamental errors, shocking really!

All in all, Lewis was blameless. Although I also think he should be asking these questions during the race and not be so passive and totally rely on directives from the team. We saw this at Mclaren and he is repeating the same bad habit at Mercedes.

What error did Merc make? They were screwed by the timing of the safety car - it happens.
When should they have been going faster (ie which laps)?

[scheivlak]

Watched the Monaco race again last night, Lewis lost negligible time after Nico was released from his stop. Mark Webber went almost full speed past the pit exit as Lewis was just starting to build up speed, so a couple of seconds extra at most that could have been gained from stacking up behind Nico would not have brought him out in front of either Red Bulls. Mercedes should have radioed Nico and Lewis to speed up as quickly as allowed for their pitstops, that's the only way they could have kept the one-two for the remainder of the race. I really would like to know what exactly pitstop strategists are doing when they make these fundamental errors, shocking really!

All in all, Lewis was blameless. Although I also think he should be asking these questions during the race and not be so passive and totally rely on directives from the team. We saw this at Mclaren and he is repeating the same bad habit at Mercedes.

You're wrong. It was Lewis' own mistake, as Mark Hughes' article here http://plus.autospor...aco-masterplan/ showed. Lewis was 5 seconds too slow on his SC in lap. If he had driven at the speed his crew asked of him, he would have stayed ahead of Vettel and Webber.

[P123]

You're wrong. It was Lewis' own mistake, as Mark Hughes' article here http://plus.autospor...aco-masterplan/ showed. Lewis was 5 seconds too slow on his SC in lap. If he had driven at the speed his crew asked of him, he would have stayed ahead of Vettel and Webber.

That's questionnable. But yes, as he admitted himself, he let the gap grow too much between himself and Rosberg.

[Mtom]

That's questionnable. But yes, as he admitted himself, he let the gap grow too much between himself and Rosberg.

I ve counted, and he came in around 5-6 sec after Rosberg's pitstop, and came out from the pits 3-4 sec behind Webber. The very best scenario he could have leave the pits next to Webber, and with a mighty luck maybe join back between the two RB's.
There was no way he could beat Vettel.

[Wolf]

A few pages back I did a simple calculation- showing that if he came in as team requested he would have come out almost abreast of Vettel (I think he would've been 0.2 behind him). He came in almost 5 seconds behind what the team requested of him (he would've left the pits 5.6 behind Ros, instead of 10.5)...

[stanga]

Personally I think the best he could have hoped for was 3rd and that with a handful of luck.

[ayanate]

What error did Merc make? They were screwed by the timing of the safety car - it happens.
When should they have been going faster (ie which laps)?

The lap they pitted, they could have both gone faster and the team should have been telling them that their lead was marginal over the RB's instead they let them cruise.

[ayanate]

A few pages back I did a simple calculation- showing that if he came in as team requested he would have come out almost abreast of Vettel (I think he would've been 0.2 behind him). He came in almost 5 seconds behind what the team requested of him (he would've left the pits 5.6 behind Ros, instead of 10.5)...

Your calculation was totally off. Rosberg came out just ahead of Vettel and Lewis if stacked up behind Rosberg in the pits would have still been behind by 4.5 to 5 secs. Best in that scenario is a mad scramble with Webber for third and I think Webber would have had the edge since he was on the race track.

[ThomFi]

You're wrong. It was Lewis' own mistake, as Mark Hughes' article here http://plus.autospor...aco-masterplan/ showed. Lewis was 5 seconds too slow on his SC in lap. If he had driven at the speed his crew asked of him, he would have stayed ahead of Vettel and Webber.

The analysis of AMuS came to the same conclusion. Going unnecessarily too slow, cost him the second position.

So verschenkte Hamilton Platz 2

[trogggy]

The lap they pitted, they could have both gone faster and the team should have been telling them that their lead was marginal over the RB's instead they let them cruise.

Wasn't Nico driving to a safety-car delta?

[P123]

I've finally been able to watch it again. Hamilton entered the pitbox approx 5.5s after Rosberg left. Vettel passed the same point on pit exit approx. 7s before Hamilton, therefore the available time from not slowing relative to Rosberg that would have apparently enabled him to remain ahead of Vettel just isn't there. He could have been ahead of Webber by a second or two had he been queueing, so he certainly cost himself 3rd place by hanging back too far.

Bear in mind that Hamilton's lateness into the box and subsequent stop time (3s) equates to him leaving the pits around 8.5s after Rosberg, and Vettel passed the pits 7s before Hamilton- Rosberg only remained in the lead by 1.5s. Had the SC not held up the Bulls (and other cars?) then it could have been worse for the team.

[Juan Kerr]

I've finally been able to watch it again. Hamilton entered the pitbox approx 5.5s after Rosberg left. Vettel passed the same point on pit exit approx. 7s before Hamilton, therefore the available time from not slowing relative to Rosberg that would have apparently enabled him to remain ahead of Vettel just isn't there. He could have been ahead of Webber by a second or two had he been queueing, so he certainly cost himself 3rd place by hanging back too far.

Bear in mind that Hamilton's lateness into the box and subsequent stop time (3s) equates to him leaving the pits around 8.5s after Rosberg, and Vettel passed the pits 7s before Hamilton- Rosberg only remained in the lead by 1.5s. Had the SC not held up the Bulls (and other cars?) then it could have been worse for the team.

Vettel went like hell around the track after being released and that made all the difference, so much for a safety delta, the speed he was going past the pits was certainly nowhere near the Safety car delta.

[Dolph]

It's not right for drivers to gain/lose positions just from the luck of whether they pitstop just before or just after the safety car. Losing a hard-earned lead is bad enough.

We can't allow muppets who crash all the time (Maldonado, Grosjean) to determine the outcome of races and championships. Of course there is a luck element in all sports, but if it can be eliminated then why not?

I think Will Power agrees

[P123]

Vettel went like hell around the track after being released and that made all the difference, so much for a safety delta, the speed he was going past the pits was certainly nowhere near the Safety car delta.

I wonder if the delta doesn't count when you're waved through from behind the SC, or if after being held up he (and the rest) were simply making up time.

[Skinnyguy]

Vettel went like hell around the track after being released and that made all the difference, so much for a safety delta, the speed he was going past the pits was certainly nowhere near the Safety car delta.

It was always inside the safety delta over every full lap until the reagroupment. That´s why he didn´t get into trouble.

[ThomFi]

I wonder if the delta doesn't count when you're waved through from behind the SC, or if after being held up he (and the rest) were simply making up time.

It was already beautifully explained.

the target laptime is universal and comes from the FIA, each specific driver's individual target laptime is calculated by the (standard) ECU based on the FIA laptime and each driver's individual GPS position on the track. And it covers a lap. If a Redbull loses 10 seconds in S1 going slower behind the SC the target remains the same, they make it up in S2 and S3. In all your analysis you detailed how much the Mercedes "lost" in S2, you forgot to account for how much the Red Bulls "lost" in S1. Compare Rosberg's and Hamilton's S1s with Webber's who wasnt in the pits

EDIT: the relevant regulation

40.7All competing cars must reduce speed and form up in line behind the safety car no more than ten car lengths apart. In order to ensure that drivers reduce speed sufficiently, from the time at which the "SAFETY CAR DEPLOYED" message is shown on the timing monitors until the time that each car crosses the first safety car line for the second time, drivers must stay above the minimum time set by the FIA ECU.

[P123]

It was already beautifully explained.

Thanks.

[V3TT3L]

Vettel went like hell around the track after being released and that made all the difference, so much for a safety delta, the speed he was going past the pits was certainly nowhere near the Safety car delta.

Yep!

Tony Kanaan did the same at Indy.
The SC was deployed but he kept going fast to overtake it before enter the track.
So Tony completed another lap 'forcing' the race to finish under yellow.