29 replies to this topic

[F.M.]

So what's up with the timing of the safety car deployment?

After Massa's crash it takes them a few laps to decide to deploy de SC, and then they send it out at the completely wrong time How hard can it be to send it out such that it picks up the leader of the race, instead of coming on track somewhere in the middle of the pack, having having part of the field bunched up behind them while others just have to run at the reduced speed (which is faster than the SC speed), subsequently have to let all these cars past till the leader is behind them and then drive around till the cars he picked up the first time have catched up again.

How incompetent is the person who decides on this? I mean, even my non-existent 6 year old girl could figure out what is a good time to actually let the SC join the track.

[jk]

Totally agree. I dont know if something dodgy is up or if it is just incompetence. But really in situations where it is safe to let the cars run on the reduced speed, it should be impossible to mess up. Just wait until the leader is coming up on pit exit and deploy the SC so it will be ahead. Also, make the SC stop on pit exit and wait for the leader, instead of running around randomly waiting for the leader to catch up. The SC should find the leader, not the other way around. As we saw today it creates random gaps and takes way too long to form the queu.

It certainly seemed fishy that it was deployed just in front of the Red Bulls and behind the leading Mercs. I remember a similar instance at Le Mans a few years back, where in the opening hours a delayed SC somehow managed to slot in a 4 seconds gap between the Peugeots and Audis. And since there are many queus at Le Mans, this instantly handed Peugeot a 1 minute lead.

[Tonka]

The Safety Car is used to ensure the marshalls are not injured by cars and the drivers don't run into an obstruction. Delaying the Safety Car to keep the race order isn't really an option is it ?

[Kalmake]

Normally it doesn't matter if SC holds the wrong car for a bit, because everyone has to stay above the minimum lap time anyway.

How much time did Vettel lose to this?

[Nonesuch]

They've been doing this, letting the leaders slip through, for years. One has to assume at this point Charlie Whiting and his cronies are simply incompetent, as there's no clear consistent beneficiary.

Once a full-course yellow - to borrow the American phrase - is in effect there is a minimum lap time drivers have to respect to ensure no shenanigans occur when cars are moving back to the pitlane, or potentially passing the scene of the accident. There thus doesn't seem to be any credible excuse as to why race control is incapable of correctly timing the deployment of the safety car so that it immediately catches the leaders of the race.

[Bleu]

What I think happened today:

First, Charlie probably thought there was no need for SC. Massa could get out of his car and there is a crane at Ste Devote, so the car would be taken away pretty soon. But then the marshals at the corner informed that Massa needs medical help, so SC was sent out on the track followed by a medical car. MC then stopped at Ste devote and SC continued alone.

Had they waited SC just ahead of leader, they would have also delayed MC on the spot.

[thechin]

So what's up with the timing of the safety car deployment?

After Massa's crash it takes them a few laps to decide to deploy de SC, and then they send it out at the completely wrong time How hard can it be to send it out such that it picks up the leader of the race, instead of coming on track somewhere in the middle of the pack, having having part of the field bunched up behind them while others just have to run at the reduced speed (which is faster than the SC speed), subsequently have to let all these cars past till the leader is behind them and then drive around till the cars he picked up the first time have catched up again.

How incompetent is the person who decides on this? I mean, even my non-existent 6 year old girl could figure out what is a good time to actually let the SC join the track.

What i don't understand is that they let the Red Bull cars through before Mirabeau but it seemed that Kimi and Alonso didn't get past until the tunnel? (Not 100% on this as didn't see it properly on TV, but it seemed like Red Bull gained loads through this compared to Lotus and Ferrari?)

Did anyone else see this who could confirm?

If they let Red Bull through they should just park the safety car and wait for Rosberg to come round to where they are surely?

[Lights]

See lap 31 from FIA timing

The Red Bulls were let through at Mireabeau, the rest of the field was kept behind the safety car much longer. Even a lap later (32) they hadn't completely caught up the Mercedes's and Red Bull's.

[sniper80]

The safety car deployment was not immediate because the FIA was still talking to Horner about the best timing to get Vettel up to 2nd place.

[F.M.]

What i don't understand is that they let the Red Bull cars through before Mirabeau but it seemed that Kimi and Alonso didn't get past until the tunnel? (Not 100% on this as didn't see it properly on TV, but it seemed like Red Bull gained loads through this compared to Lotus and Ferrari?)

Did anyone else see this who could confirm?

If they let Red Bull through they should just park the safety car and wait for Rosberg to come round to where they are surely?

Yeah, I was wondering how the Red Bull cleared Hamilton easily, while Kimi, who was right behind them, was over 7 seconds behind on the start finish line that lap...

[Lights]

This really ruins races for me. I don't see how Hamilton deserves to lose 2 places just because he pits the lap the SC gets called out, as opposed to Vettel who pitted 1 lap earlier.

At the same time Hamilton can be lucky he wasn't passed by 2 or 3 more cars as that could have easily been the case.

[thechin]

Yeah, I was wondering how the Red Bull cleared Hamilton easily, while Kimi, who was right behind them, was over 7 seconds behind on the start finish line that lap...

Checking the link that Lights just posted, it seems kimi and alonso lost about 10 seconds or more to red bull during safety car phase. This would fit in with not being allowed past before Mirabeau and having to follow until the tunnel. Why would the safety car do this? Surely it should just stop where it is on track and wait for Rosberg to arrive? Or if not do that then at least hold everyone behind fairly?

Just surprised we didn't hear more about this during the race.

[Andrew Hope]

"Deserve's got nothing to do with it".

Racing is racing, sometimes it will fall your way and sometimes it won't. I'll feel sorry for a driver losing 2nd and falling to 4th because of a safety car when I see a driver who went from 4th to 2nd because of one standing on the podium saying "I didn't really deserve 2nd".

Edited by Andrew Hope, 26 May 2013 - 20:47.

[thechin]

"Deserve's got nothing to do with it".

Racing is racing, sometimes it will fall your way and sometimes it won't. I'll feel sorry for a driver losing 2nd and falling to 4th because of a safety car when I see a driver who went from 4th to 2nd because of one standing on the podium saying "I didn't really deserve 2nd".

Yes, i agree that sometimes the luck is with you, sometimes it isn't. It's just that if they are going to wave some through they should wait where they are and wave the rest through until the leader reaches them. Seems pretty simple to me to make it fairer, it's not making it any more dangerous and would avoid situations like today.

[Lights]

"Deserve's got nothing to do with it".

Racing is racing, sometimes it will fall your way and sometimes it won't. I'll feel sorry for a driver losing 2nd and falling to 4th because of a safety car when I see a driver who went from 4th to 2nd because of one standing on the podium saying "I didn't really deserve 2nd".

Q: Obviously when the safety car came out that caught Lewis out, the Mercedes had just completed a lap. Where exactly were you when you got the message to come into the pits.
SV: The safety car wasn’t out yet. Obviously it was a very, very good call from the team. Initially we wanted to pit a lap earlier but then we aborted that. Obviously there was a yellow and in the end I think we were just a little bit lucky. So we decided to pit and when I changed tyres and went back out, at the same moment the safety car came - which probably helped us a little bit. I don’t know if Lewis had a problem with the stop or if it was just down to the fact that the safety car came at the wrong time for him. But, yeah, it was nice. At some stage I was hoping that it might be enough to get Nico as well but he obviously was in the lead by quite a bit at that time, before we came in.

Perhaps that's because the drivers don't really know exactly what went on in the race with other drivers. And even so, Vettel notes that they were lucky with the situation. We're then left discussing the link between 'luck' and the definition of 'deserve'.

And in some cases, deserving literally has something to do with it.

[asmodeo]

So what's up with the timing of the safety car deployment?

After Massa's crash it takes them a few laps to decide to deploy de SC, and then they send it out at the completely wrong time How hard can it be to send it out such that it picks up the leader of the race, instead of coming on track somewhere in the middle of the pack, having having part of the field bunched up behind them while others just have to run at the reduced speed (which is faster than the SC speed), subsequently have to let all these cars past till the leader is behind them and then drive around till the cars he picked up the first time have catched up again.

How incompetent is the person who decides on this? I mean, even my non-existent 6 year old girl could figure out what is a good time to actually let the SC join the track.

Welcome to Charlie's world

[Nomore]

The safety car deployment was not immediate because the FIA was still talking to Horner about the best timing to get Vettel up to 2nd place.

exactly

[Tonka]

This really ruins races for me. I don't see how Hamilton deserves to lose 2 places just because he pits the lap the SC gets called out, as opposed to Vettel who pitted 1 lap earlier.

At the same time Hamilton can be lucky he wasn't passed by 2 or 3 more cars as that could have easily been the case.

Hamilton cocked up. He should have been right behind Rosberg ready to change his tyres, instead he slowed so much he pitted almost 10 seconds after Rosberg had gone back onto the circuit. That 10 seconds enabled the Red Bulls to pass him.

[redreni]

In my view the SC boards and flags should go out as soon as the incident occurs but the SC itself should not enter the track until everybody has been either through or past the pits once. This would eliminate a huge amount of unfairness by keeping everyone to the same delta thereby preserving the gaps between the cars until the pitstops are done. Only then should the SC pick up the leader, as others have said, causing the SC train to form up so the marshalls can have good access to the track to clear the debris..

Why there was a two minute delay on calling the SC today is anybody's guess. Quite lucky we didn't have cars coming at 120mph backwards out of the tunnel with punctures after Charlie decided to let everyone run at racing speed through Massa's debris on the run to Ste Devote.

[Skinnyguy]

Sorry but race order shouldn´t even be a factor in the timming of the SC deployment in a big accident. They should deploy it as soon as they think it´s convenient.

Also, about the "mistakes" being discussed:

- The gap between RB and Räikkönen was down to circuit layout, not to bad procedure. Cars can´t pass between Mirabeau and the tunnel for evident reasons. Same between Tabac and the main straight.

- Lewis getting passed was down by having to queue and his little slip falling too much behind. When you´re leading 1-2 by a little margin and SC is out you´ll automatically lose 2nd place so this wasn´t a bad deployment or anything. He would have lost more places had the pack been together and had he queued behind Rosberg, which would be the normal thing.

[green-blood]

In my view the SC boards and flags should go out as soon as the incident occurs but the SC itself should not enter the track until everybody has been either through or past the pits once. This would eliminate a huge amount of unfairness by keeping everyone to the same delta thereby preserving the gaps between the cars until the pitstops are done. Only then should the SC pick up the leader, as others have said, causing the SC train to form up so the marshalls can have good access to the track to clear the debris..

Why there was a two minute delay on calling the SC today is anybody's guess. Quite lucky we didn't have cars coming at 120mph backwards out of the tunnel with punctures after Charlie decided to let everyone run at racing speed through Massa's debris on the run to Ste Devote.

Double waves yellows for the Massa incident, anyone driving,through at full race speed should lose thier licence

Delay in SC as it was not needed until confirmation that the doctor was needed. Medical car can only enter the track under SC conditions. They all saw massa smash in qualifying so reacted accordingly and correctly

Do people watch the races?

[HuddersfieldTerrier1986]

Cars can´t pass between Mirabeau and the tunnel for evident reasons. Same between Tabac and the main straight.

I disagree. Leave the SC at the edge of Mirabeau and let anyone who shouldn't be behind it, past. As for between Tabac and the main straight, plenty of space for cars to get past a slowing SC as far as I'm concerned.

[Skinnyguy]

I disagree. Leave the SC at the edge of Mirabeau and let anyone who shouldn't be behind it, past.

You know what, you´re absolutely right. Stopping the SC in a safe place doesn´t hurt anyone. And we´ve seen it parked waiting plenty of times before! This was indeed a mistake now I think about this possibility.

As for between Tabac and the main straight, plenty of space for cars to get past a slowing SC as far as I'm concerned.

We won´t agree here. Doesn´t look a good idea to me. But I guess that with your parking idea this is totally irrelevant.

[Rinehart]

I just don't see the point of the SC.
Have an SP instead (safety phase) and the min lap time delta set for the approximate pace of the would be SC then there is no difference.
As it is countless cars pass the scene of an accident, not behind the SC because its not out yet or not picked cars up.
It is currently the most ridiculous process devised by mankind.

[Skinnyguy]

I just don't see the point of the SC.
Have an SP instead (safety phase) and the min lap time delta set for the approximate pace of the would be SC then there is no difference.

Cars are reagrouped because Delta is faster than actual SC. With Delta and without SC gaps would remain and marshalls can´t work, and medical car can´t move. Point of SC is not only slowing, but reagrouping too.

[Rinehart]

Cars are reagrouped because Delta is faster than actual SC. With Delta and without SC gaps would remain and marshalls can´t work, and medical car can´t move. Point of SC is not only slowing, but reagrouping too.

If you read I said make delta same as SC.
Secondly, you'd agree that the first 2 or 3 minutes are the most critical in life threatening situations right?
SC does not even get called, let alone group the field in that time. Pretty much every car passes an accident scene once or twice not behind the SC.

[alfa1]

So what's up with the timing of the safety car deployment?

The safety car is deployed at the exact instant that it is deemed to be required.

Safety overrules racing.

If the race order gets messed up a bit, tough titties, because safety is the priority.

[chumma]

Forget the timing of the safety car being brought out, what about the length the safety car stays out on track when it isnt needed? I think, for the pinnacle of motorsport, simply allowing lapped cars to drop back (in order) and have a lap added to their current status is more than accomplishable than simply giving them 2 laps to get back and rejoin the field.

[teejay]

Medical issues will always outweigh timing to ensure everyone is happy happy.

Get the car out asap to allow treatment to arrive and commence.

[OfficeLinebacker]

I just don't see the point of the SC.
Have an SP instead (safety phase) and the min lap time delta set for the approximate pace of the would be SC then there is no difference.

They actually tried this in Indy Cars during the 1970s. It did not work well, mainly because the delta was not required to be adhered to when passing through pit lane. Cars abused the system by making unnecessary pit stops.