128 replies to this topic

[PayasYouRace]

Shiroo, here's your solution

[HoldenRT]

Monaco didn't used to be that bad.

They were literally cruising.

Even in the days of grooved tyres.. you'd have the top 4 or 5 pushing for a 2 stop to make a gap, and the others doing a 1 stop.

The train factor of that race was just silly. Everyone doing a 1 stop.. which is the exact thing that Pirelli were supposed to avoid, but it was only one race.

The problem was.. Monaco is supposed to sacrifice overtakes.. for pushing hard on a track that isn't suitable for racing. That in itself is exciting for me.. watching the live timing.. or just knowing that they are pushing each other. A battle of the stopwatch.. to make a gap.. or to stay in touch with a car infront that is quicker.

And it didn't even have that.

Edited by HoldenRT, 28 May 2013 - 19:37.

[DampMongoose]

In 1972 they had the pits along there, so the chicane was at the end of the street as in that photo. All other years it's been at the beginning of that street.

As I said...

[PayasYouRace]

As I said...

Yes you did. Sorry for missing it.

[Clatter]

Some of you armchair critics should get off your backsides and go to Monaco.
Walk the circuit and then watch the race.
You would then realise what rubbish you are talking.
It is a spectacle on a circuit virtually the same as when started in 1929
Better than watching on boring modern Tike circuits with miles of run off and nothing to hit.

It is a spectacular circuit to watch a car on, but a damned poor one to run a race on.

[Jimisgod]

But even Valencia and SIngapore (that 2nd is quite enjoyable) isn't as boring as Monaco. Is uneventful (if we won't include ******** crashes like Grosjean).

Bullshit. Valencia was utterly awful every year until last year. After India it is the race I least care about missing.

It's fairly wide so it has absolutely none of the spectacle of Monaco, and they still can't overtake often.

Edited by Jimisgod, 29 May 2013 - 03:51.

[Lotusseven]

But even Valencia and SIngapore (that 2nd is quite enjoyable) isn't as boring as Monaco. Is uneventful (if we won't include ******** crashes like Grosjean).

It was 17 overtakes at Monaco GP 2013. Just saying...I have no idea how to make it more interesting/eventful so I will leave this thread.

0 (zero) overtakes in 2003 Monaco GP !


Year /Track /Laps/RaceTimes/Overtakes/Weather
1998 Monaco 78 1:51:24.400 1 Dry
1999 Monaco 78 1:49:31.812 3 Dry
2000 Monaco 78 1:49:28.213 2 Dry
2001 Monaco 78 1:47:22.561 5 Dry
2002 Monaco 78 1:45:39.055 5 Dry
2003 Monaco 78 1:42:19.010 0 Dry
2004 Monaco 77 1:45:46.601 5 Dry
2005 Monaco 78 1:45:15.556 11 Dry

source: cliptheapex.com

[Shiroo]

It was 17 overtakes at Monaco GP 2013. Just saying...I have no idea how to make it more interesting/eventful so I will leave this thread.

0 (zero) overtakes in 2003 Monaco GP !


Year /Track /Laps/RaceTimes/Overtakes/Weather
1998 Monaco 78 1:51:24.400 1 Dry
1999 Monaco 78 1:49:31.812 3 Dry
2000 Monaco 78 1:49:28.213 2 Dry
2001 Monaco 78 1:47:22.561 5 Dry
2002 Monaco 78 1:45:39.055 5 Dry
2003 Monaco 78 1:42:19.010 0 Dry
2004 Monaco 77 1:45:46.601 5 Dry
2005 Monaco 78 1:45:15.556 11 Dry

source: cliptheapex.com

cause you have teams like Caterham, Marussia. And kimi gave few as well due to his new tyres. And Perez with dive bombs. I meant in general "style" of these overtakes. And also look at these times they were lapping, 1:20 on the finish. Man, that is not proper racing it is cruising, and it is both, the track that doesn't allow for almost any overtakes and shitty tyres. As a result we get cruising top drivers to the finish.

At least in 2003 they were pushing, at the moment they are cruising and overtaking Caterhams and Marussias

[nosecone]

Desire to make F1 more interesting get us in all those problems we have recently.

yes. F1 tries all means to become more spectacular year by year, even if it is bad for racing or sth else. In 2011/12 the races were exciting enough (-ok 2011 was sometimes boring as Vettel won everything but apart from that is was brilliant races). But F1 tried to become even more spectacular and thrilling, thus they did a second DRS zone and softer tyres even thought Pirelli wasn't capable to produce softer tyres which don't blow up when a driver locks up the tyres.

IMO the this years race wasn't boring at all apart from the tyre safing train from P1-4. There was real racing! You saw thrilling overtakes. In a ordinary race you would see thousands of replays of DRS blow bys.

This was one of the best Monaco GP's i saw. Last year was worse and 2011 too.

But yeah i know most of you don't share this opinion with me

Edited by nosecone, 29 May 2013 - 12:08.

[PaulTodd]

It all depends on what you call interesting. If you want an overtaking fest then yea you could dislike like the Monaco Grand Prix in a big way, but then again it makes me wonder how anyone who calls them self a formula one fan and dislike Monaco. It's the main race of the year.

I like having different styles of circuits to race on it would be boring if every track allowed you to pass at ease. It's not always about overtaking.

[juicy sushi]

Monaco is the tightest street circuit on the planet with the fewest overtaking opportunities. It's nature is one of survival, with any overtaking being pure opportunism. Yes, that can be dull, and when it is, I don't bother watching. But it is Monaco, and I accept it. More onboard footage from better angles would help, but quality of the TV coverage is its own issue.

[JohnnySchwaffel]

If you don't get excited of the onboards of any driver from any team going full out trough the Monaco streets, maybe you should watch tennis then.... or curling.

[Muppetmad]

I was watching yesterday the race and I need to say IT WAS THE MOST BORING RACE EVER. And if someone disagree with me, then man, only because:
a) his fav driver won
b) his most hated driver got DNF or lost vs his closest WDC contender
c) someone enjoys ******** GP2-like overtakes and crashes
d) like procession ala resurrection procession (and to be honest is as same eventful as this race was)

a) Nope.
b) Nope.
c) Nope.
d) Nope.

Sorry, I seem to disagree with you yet don't fulfil any of your stringent criteria. It wasn't the most interesting of races ever, but it was no where near to being "the most boring race ever". I think it's great to see the drivers navigate the most difficult circuit on the calendar; some can do it perfectly, some make mistakes. It's always a great way of differentiating between the most talented and those who are bolstered somewhat by the abundance of new, formulaic circuits.

[Clatter]

If you don't get excited of the onboards of any driver from any team going full out trough the Monaco streets, maybe you should watch tennis then.... or curling.

Is that really all it takes to get you excited.

Edited by Clatter, 29 May 2013 - 12:53.

[g1n]

Is that really all it takes to get you excited.

to be honest both those are more exciting than cricket....

[JohnnySchwaffel]

Yeah it does. If I read most comments here about the Monaco race, it's a great reflection of human nature here... "complaining" simply because to be able to complain.

I guess most of you have all to big expectations of F1, if they had 90 overtakes this year, people would still complain. To many this, to little that, this way to that, but always some complaining to do.

I like competition, I like to see crashes, I like to see tactics, I also like overtaking if possible, and this years Monaco had it all in my opinion. But then again, I also get excited when they simply start they're engine's in the pitbox.;)

Edited by JohnnySchwaffel, 29 May 2013 - 13:40.

[Diablobb81]

I think it's great to see the drivers navigate the most difficult circuit on the calendar; some can do it perfectly, some make mistakes. It's always a great way of differentiating between the most talented and those who are bolstered somewhat by the abundance of new, formulaic circuits.

And could you tell me how you could differentiate in the last race since it was nothing more than a big, slow train?

Edited by Diablobb81, 29 May 2013 - 13:49.

[Muppetmad]

And could you tell me how you could differentiate in the last race since it was nothing more than a big, slow train?

Qualifying plays a big part too. Rosberg differentiated himself by delivering the great lap and reaped the rewards in the race. That may sound stupid, but every year there's at least one driver who says they didn't get the most out of the car on their flying lap at Monaco - this year it was Vettel. Being able to do it consistently is a key differentiator (because I don't wish to suggest Vettel isn't top notch - he was simply this year's example). Just look back to 2010's Q3 - almost everybody from P3 down to P10 said they had more to give, and that year Webber and Kubica were the people who "differentiated" themselves.

If you wish to simply stick to the race though, Sutil certainly differentiated himself from others in the pack - he made quite a few clean overtakes, it was very impressive. Raikkonen did too at the end, although of course we shouldn't count the Bottas overtake. Otherwise, simply not making errors is a way to differentiate - Monaco highlights errors more than many circuits, and those who didn't make errors reaped the rewards with strong finishes whilst those who were error-prone paid the price (although sadly there were some innocent victims along the way). To suggest it was "nothing more than a big, slow train" is to ignore the evidence to the contrary - it may have been slow, and if this is true then the circuit is not to blame but the tyres, but it wasn't a train.

Edited by Muppetmad, 29 May 2013 - 14:04.

[holiday]

I think they should run the race in the other direction, seriously.

+ Moving the race into the 'rainy season', if the bad weather probability is really much higher then.

Ok, on second thought this would mean pulling Monaco out of the European season, to March or October.

[Radoye]

It's the cars, not the track.

Take off downforce. TONS of downforce. Say, run it in Monza trim.

Then Monaco will be fun again.

[Atreiu]

No, it's neither the cars nor the track, it's the fans who need constant spicing on their show. And that's where DRS and marginal tyres come from.
Monaco was always about being tight, slow, hard to pass and very different from any other circuit.

How some of the people who watch F1 these days have come to expect otherwise baffles me. It's one of the worse cases of short memories and misplaced expectations I've seen in a while.

Edited by Atreiu, 30 May 2013 - 00:19.

[jj2728]

I was watching yesterday the race and I need to say IT WAS THE MOST BORING RACE EVER. And if someone disagree with me, then man, only because:
a) his fav driver won
b) his most hated driver got DNF or lost vs his closest WDC contender
c) someone enjoys ******** GP2-like overtakes and crashes
d) like procession ala resurrection procession (and to be honest is as same eventful as this race was)

Driver NOT pushing at all, cause there is simply no reason. Even if they could race 2sec faster they won't do that, cause they prefer to conserve tyres, go for 1 Pit Stop cause it is impossible overtake here between top drivers on same strategy (unless someone decide to dive bomb and hope that his opponent will simply yield, or both of them crash).
And no, it isn't Pirelli fault that drivers aren't pushing. They simply have no reason to push. What for to push if you can go for 1 pit stop, cause it won't change a ****. And going for more pit stops is NO NO in Monaco.
Also some GP2 drivers that somehow got into F1 still think that proper way to overtake is dive bomb someone and count that someone will simply yield.

So I looked at Monaco layout and thought, WHAT THE **** is need to be done to make it at least a bit more interesting and make driver push instead of cruise.



When you take a look at Monaco layout there are like 2 possibilites to make it a racing track, not the most rich and boring resurrection procession.

1) Add DRS in tunnel (too risky so I believe it is no no)
2) Remove that god damn Nouvelle Chicane and add DRS zone from TUNNEL till Tabac. Tunnel often allows to be alreayd behind the slower car, yet chicane destroys everything (unless you do DIVE BOMB kamikaze attack). It is good for nothing, place where "new drivers" like to test old folks and dive bomb just for "proper overtake", at least they think so.

First of all: It would make drivers to push in Monaco, cause if they would cruise, someone would simply overtake them in that new DRS zone like nothing. Monaco would be changed to 2-3 pit stop instead of 1 pit stop and finish. It would have shitload of overtakes, different strategies, and train wouldn't be so often as they are now. It would also remove these ******** dive bombs in that chicane.

Imagine if they would lap in 1:21 with such DRS. The guy behind would go past them like nothing. So they would need to push, change tyres etc.

And let's be honest, even gorgonzolo tyres won't change anything in Monaco unless the layout will be modified. And that is probably best thing to do with that. It would be then proper racing, with skill of driver having major role in good quali lap, yet result wouldn't be already know after qualifications.

Your thoughts? (and please, no argument aka "It isnt about racing, it is about MONACO being "that type of track" Or similar)

Haven't seen many Monaco GPs have you.
Oh and I disagree with you but NOT for any of the reasons you stated above.

[jj2728]

And to be honest, I don't give a **** about Monaco being legendary track. Yes, it is legendary for rich people, they just come there, show off their butts and then go back (well I believe most of them just go or track Formula 1 races during GP Monaco or so). It is too expensive to watch race there live in good spot I believe, and in TV is just quite boring (it is the only race, where I almost fall asleep)

Then you really don't appreciate the sport nor its heritage. And that's too bad.....must be a younger generation thing.

[Radoye]

No, it's neither the cars nor the track, it's the fans who need constant spicing on their show. And that's where DRS and marginal tyres come from.
Monaco was always about being tight, slow, hard to pass and very different from any other circuit.

How some of the people who watch F1 these days have come to expect otherwise baffles me. It's one of the worse cases of short memories and misplaced expectations I've seen in a while.

Well i've been following F1 for 30+ years now and i understand what Monaco represent. It indeed is about precision driving in a very tight environment. Nowhere can one see driver skill being tested as much as in Monaco - not even on tracks where everybody is seemingly "pushing" on everlasting tires. There is no place in this world where racing drivers work harder than at Monaco.

But, i also remember Monaco being a place where overtaking, although harder than on other circuits, was perfectly possible. And i'm not talking about eyes closed divebombing attacks that are more likely to end up in tears than leading to a successful overtake. Back then it was possible to overtake at several places on the track - most often into the hairpin, then into Ste Devote after the start-finish straight (OK, let's call it a straight even though it is not ;) ) and just then into the chicane, which used to be much tighter if i remember correctly. Occasionally, you could even see overtakes in other places on the track. I remember cars powersliding through Casino, going sideways with opposite lock - a magnificent sight!

There was a point in time a few years back when overtaking at Monaco literally became impossible except through pits and the cars appeared as if being glued to the track or driving on rails. It is recently getting a bit better if you ask me, with the changes introduced in the last few years, though i am most likely a minority here.

So what happened?

Back in the 1970's and 1980's the cars had just a fraction of the downforce they could achieve in the 2000's. As downforce increased, so the possibility of overtaking at Monaco decreased and the races turned into a procession.

(Keep in mind - i'd take a procession at Monaco any day over some of the more bland among the modern tracks; Valencia or Abu Dhabi anyone?)

And the trend started reversing since FIA started putting limits on aerodynamics, effectively cutting downforce and total grip available on the cars.

I would even dare to simplify it to the bone - the less grip, the more fun at Monaco!

So that's why, if i could make such decisions, i would mandate Monza levels of downforce at Monaco. And i'm quite confident - there would be then powersliding and overtakes again. No need for DRS and any other gizmos. And it would be still tighter, slower, harder to pass than any other place - unique.

[DKMoto]

I know how to make Monaco 100x more interesting. Replace the driver's F1 cars for souped up go-carts and let them go at it. Would be ultra fun, well until Grosjean crashes.

[makroncommander]

It's the cars, not the track.

Take off downforce. TONS of downforce. Say, run it in Monza trim.

Then Monaco will be fun again.

Drivers rely too much on downforce and it keeps the car stuck to the racing line.

Let them slide around a bit, and be able to follow close.

[Craven Morehead]

As far as Monaco Grand Prix go, this one was quite good.

No need to fix anything. Those that are bored/ disinterested are free to turn off their TVs.

[JohnnySchwaffel]

well said!

[wewantourdarbyback]

As many have said, fix the rest of the sport, show people what real racing is about, leave Monaco.

I can't see what's not to like about watching the cars fly round the tight streets inches from the wall, never fails to grab the attention.