108 replies to this topic

[schubacca]

I am reading Coulthard's column on the BBC site, and I just wish that he would stop with the sideways criticism of MS. He was referring to Perez's banzai passing moves yesterday.

"It's the same philosophy Michael Schumacher used to use - Michael would barrel down the inside, effectively saying: "I will pass you or we will crash." More often than not, people would move over. But not everyone races like that."

Now, I have no issue with the criticism of Perez, or Schumacher's toughness. However, there was once a great driver called Ayton Senna that passed in the same manner.

For the record once more, AS is one of the greatest F1 drivers ever. I got no problem with those that see AS as #1 of all time.

However, these indirect comments that we get from the BBC crew just seem petty and unprofessional for me.

He just needs to say that Perez was reckless and leave it at that.

[Risil]

[Collombin]

I suspect the difference is that Coulthard faced Schumacher's tactics first hand.

Nobody would deny Senna was just as bad though.

[bub]

I don't see the problem. If he see's similarity in the way they overtake then that's his opinion. MS probably has behaved like that at times.

[Cavani]

that is the senna way and that is the perfect way , i adore perez overtaking style

[muramasa]

I am reading Coulthard's column on the BBC site, and I just wish that he would stop with the sideways criticism of MS. He was referring to Perez's banzai passing moves yesterday.

banzai, 万歳 = wohoo!, yes! (that's what I'm talking about! : Vettel style) , i've done it! , congrats! , hooray! , long live ___!

[Vitesse2]

I suspect the difference is that Coulthard faced Schumacher's tactics first hand.

Nobody would deny Senna was just as bad though.

I'm pretty sure there are quite a few who would. I expect they'll be along shortly ...;) [edit: see?]

I don't see the problem. If he see's similarity in the way they overtake then that's his opinion. MS probably has behaved like that at times.

Probably?

First witness ... Mr D Hill ... second witness ... Mr J Villeneuve ...

[edit] First witness ... Mr M Hakkinen (what year was it at Macau - 1991?)

Edited by Vitesse2, 27 May 2013 - 13:30.

[TheThirdTenor1]

Probably?

First witness ... Mr D Hill ... second witness ... Mr J Villeneuve ...

[edit] First witness ... Mr M Hakkinen (what year was it at Macau - 1991?)

Erm none of those moves were anything like Perez's moves on Sunday. In fact, in all of those moves, Schumacher was the ones being overtaken.

[SpaMaster]

I think it is perfectly understandable to compare that sort of driving to Schumacher and Senna. Both of them did a lot of brash moves.

[TheThirdTenor1]

And to be fair to Coulthard, he may have a point. Schumacher pulled off a very similar move to Perez in the 1998 Monaco Grand Prix. I believe it was on the last lap against an Arrows (can't remember the driver).

[Ross Stonefeld]

And Montoya did it.

And Lewis.

And.

[Boxerevo]

You have to understand 2 things.

First is that almost all of us saw Schumacher career,so he is a better target.

Second,Senna passed away,so everybody is more careful with words.

Edited by Boxerevo, 27 May 2013 - 13:56.

[selespeed]

if he compares someone to schumacher than it should be raikkonen...you try to pass me i smack you into the wall.

[sharo]

DC better have a look at his overtaking style and abilities - more often than not he was attacking a gap that does not exist in a true ram attack style. Sometimes the attacked drivers delayed their corner entry to let him fly past into the gravel, but quite often the result was a crash.

[Jon83]

if he compares someone to schumacher than it should be raikkonen...you try to pass me i smack you into the wall.

Well he wouldn't do that given Kimi didn't do, or try to do, any such thing.

[Vitesse2]

Erm none of those moves were anything like Perez's moves on Sunday. In fact, in all of those moves, Schumacher was the ones being overtaken.

So "defending" by nerfing someone off is okay in your book then?

[schubacca]

And Montoya did it.

And Lewis.

And.

Talking to a friend on the weekend, we agreed that the JPM comparison would be more apt.

AS and MS knew would they could tangle with and who they needed to be careful with.

Perez and JPM do/did not and would attack every driver the same way.

[pUs]

Well, maybe Michael drove just as badly as Perez. But in that case it's really strange that he and Kimi rarely crashed into each other while both were racing..

[schubacca]

So "defending" by nerfing someone off is okay in your book then?

Back then it was common practice...

However, the dredging up of MS's faults is not relevant to the conversation as we are talking about passing....

[ZZei]

Well, maybe Michael drove just as badly as Perez. But in that case it's really strange that he and Kimi rarely crashed into each other while both were racing..

I think its the case of Schumacher driving just for pure pleasure in the "second career" with no championship at stake.

[pUs]

I think its the case of Schumacher driving just for pure pleasure in the "second career" with no championship at stake.

Perhaps he did, but he and Kimi actually did six seasons against each other (2001-2006) before that as well. I'd say their racing was nice and clean most of the time.

[schubacca]

I think its the case of Schumacher driving just for pure pleasure in the "second career" with no championship at stake.

Even in his first career MS did not crash into FA, KR, MH, and other elite level drivers.

These drivers know how much they can push with each other....

DC, JPM, were easy marks because they were either soft, or uncontrolled in their overtaking/defense.

[holiday]

Comparing Perez' dilettante & brash dive-bombing with Schumacher's confident & intimidating overtaking skills is beyond me.

MS, Montoya, LH, AS and Kimi all know/knew despite their aggressiveness how to drive a car wheel-to-wheel, whereas Perez is just a punk who has not figured out yet that two material objects cannot occupy the same space at the same time.

[grunge]

Ill completely disagree ..Yes,Schumacher was at times as bad as they get ..but i cant imagine MS doing something this stupid..i honestly cant.

And Schumacher raced wheel to wheel many times with Raikkonen pre retirement..The 2005 season is full of it..Cant remember MS pulling off one such move

Edit: as Holiday pointed out above,MS was definitely 'pushy' at times but he always had the presence of mind/Skill when it came to wheel to wheel battles

Edited by grunge, 27 May 2013 - 14:54.

[Mila]

And to be fair to Coulthard, he may have a point. Schumacher pulled off a very similar move to Perez in the 1998 Monaco Grand Prix. I believe it was on the last lap against an Arrows (can't remember the driver).

It was Pedro Diniz. The funny thing is that they weren't racing each other. Diniz was running in 6th, the last points-paying position; and Schumacher was a lap (or more?) behind, so he had nothing to gain by doing the bonzai.

[tkulla]

DC is right, ultimately.

It all traces back to F1 becoming much safer around the time that Senna entered the sport. His archrival Prost was around for the tail end of the "fireball" era and therefore treated contact with other cars as being something to be avoided at all costs. Senna saw this as a weakness in Prost and used it to his advantage. Instead of being reviled for such behavior he was celebrated by his fans (who would condone any action he took since he was so beloved it bordered on worship) and the nonsense about needing to be "ruthless" and have the "killer instinct" became accepted even by the pundits. In reality it's just poor sportsmanship, but since that's been dying a slow death in all sports during this same time period no one cared. The fact that previous great drivers (such as Stewart) found his tactics unacceptable was dismissed.

Schumacher's formative years took place as Senna was being celebrated for such behavior, so it's no wonder he followed the same path. This, in turn, has affected a great percentage of the current drivers who grew up idolizing the German.

What's amazing to me that we have a group of top drivers who appear to be from the "gentleman" school (Alonso, Raikkonen, Button, Webber and even Hamilton at this point). The drivers younger than this, however, are also part of the videogame generation where everyone (me included) drivers likes there is no danger because, well, it's a game and there is no danger. They are also too young to remember and have been affected by Senna's death so to them F1 is totally safe, just like those games. However, the reality is that tragedy could still strike F1. We've had a few close calls in the last couple of years as flying cars have come close to hitting helmets (Alonso and Schumi are the two potential victims in the two incidents that come to mind) and every high-speed accident increases the probability of such horrors happening. The cars and circuits of today are nearly as safe as can be, so the biggest safety gains left are in the minds of the drivers.

[ZZei]

Perhaps he did, but he and Kimi actually did six seasons against each other (2001-2006) before that as well. I'd say their racing was nice and clean most of the time.

You're right about that, could have something to do with Kimi being one the cleanest drivers out there and the fact that the mclaren of his wasnt exactly "a 23-points finishes in a row" capable car like lotus. But definetely Schumachers dirty moves lessened with age. Not completely dissapered though, like monaco 2006 and some clash with rubens a few years ago remind us ;)

[Shambolic]

First witness ... Mr D Hill ... second witness ... Mr J Villeneuve ...

Is that Damon "whoops, I seem to have just totally fudged it in Silverstone 95 and rammed us both off the track" Hill?
As in Damon "Oh look, there's a disappearing gap, he looks to be going awfully slowly but I'm too far back, oh screw it I'll hurtle up the inside anyway.. Oh. Bugger." Hill?

And Jaques "Point, squeeze, weave whilst racing under suspension, oh, didn't do anything beneficial, appeal removed" Villeneuve?
Jaques "lucky he tried to hit me, or I'd have been in the gravel in a cloud of lockup smoke and shame" Villeneuve. The same Villeneuve as 14 or 15 years later was hardly a gentleman racer at a track named after his father, when trying for a win in America's second tier roundy roundy farce racing.

I don't mind DC's commentary for the most part, same goes for Brundle's. But they've both been quick to try to stick the knife in when it comes to Schumacher. It's one of the few bright sides to Schumacher retiring again, there's less bitterness and sniping from the commentary boxes.

[holiday]

It was Pedro Diniz. The funny thing is that they weren't racing each other. Diniz was running in 6th, the last points-paying position; and Schumacher was a lap (or more?) behind, so he had nothing to gain by doing the bonzai.

Out of the top of my mind...wasn't this against Wurz at the last turn before the tunnel? That was one great move, although they made contact and MS eventually had to retire. But it was a move born out of aggressiveness, while Perez clumsy 'overtaking' attempts are more of the human rocket type.

[schubacca]

DC is right, ultimately.

It all traces back to F1 becoming much safer around the time that Senna entered the sport. His archrival Prost was around for the tail end of the "fireball" era and therefore treated contact with other cars as being something to be avoided at all costs. Senna saw this as a weakness in Prost and used it to his advantage. Instead of being reviled for such behavior he was celebrated by his fans (who would condone any action he took since he was so beloved it bordered on worship) and the nonsense about needing to be "ruthless" and have the "killer instinct" became accepted even by the pundits. In reality it's just poor sportsmanship, but since that's been dying a slow death in all sports during this same time period no one cared. The fact that previous great drivers (such as Stewart) found his tactics unacceptable was dismissed.

Schumacher's formative years took place as Senna was being celebrated for such behavior, so it's no wonder he followed the same path. This, in turn, has affected a great percentage of the current drivers who grew up idolizing the German.

What's amazing to me that we have a group of top drivers who appear to be from the "gentleman" school (Alonso, Raikkonen, Button, Webber and even Hamilton at this point). The drivers younger than this, however, are also part of the videogame generation where everyone (me included) drivers likes there is no danger because, well, it's a game and there is no danger. They are also too young to remember and have been affected by Senna's death so to them F1 is totally safe, just like those games. However, the reality is that tragedy could still strike F1. We've had a few close calls in the last couple of years as flying cars have come close to hitting helmets (Alonso and Schumi are the two potential victims in the two incidents that come to mind) and every high-speed accident increases the probability of such horrors happening. The cars and circuits of today are nearly as safe as can be, so the biggest safety gains left are in the minds of the drivers.

It is hard to define the gentlemanly drivers nowadays because the rules severely impact the ability to defend against DRS and KERS assisted overtakes.

MS was slated for his defense against LH at Monza a couple of years ago. I felt that it was some of the best examples of old school defense in years.... (That is just me...)

[schubacca]

Is that Damon "whoops, I seem to have just totally fudged it in Silverstone 95 and rammed us both off the track" Hill?
As in Damon "Oh look, there's a disappearing gap, he looks to be going awfully slowly but I'm too far back, oh screw it I'll hurtle up the inside anyway.. Oh. Bugger." Hill?

And Jaques "Point, squeeze, weave whilst racing under suspension, oh, didn't do anything beneficial, appeal removed" Villeneuve?
Jaques "lucky he tried to hit me, or I'd have been in the gravel in a cloud of lockup smoke and shame" Villeneuve. The same Villeneuve as 14 or 15 years later was hardly a gentleman racer at a track named after his father, when trying for a win in America's second tier roundy roundy farce racing.

I don't mind DC's commentary for the most part, same goes for Brundle's. But they've both been quick to try to stick the knife in when it comes to Schumacher. It's one of the few bright sides to Schumacher retiring again, there's less bitterness and sniping from the commentary boxes.

Yep, no snickering when MS gets a mechanical failure...

[joshb]

Out of the top of my mind...wasn't this against Wurz at the last turn before the tunnel? That was one great move, although they made contact and MS eventually had to retire. But it was a move born out of aggressiveness, while Perez clumsy 'overtaking' attempts are more of the human rocket type.

The move on Wurz (banging wheels at Loews and Portier) put Wurz out a bit later on (suspension failure in the tunnel) and Schumacher almost immediately came in for lengthy repairs (he went 3 laps down) before being sent back out. He then had his attempted move on Diniz on the last lap for 6th at the time and broke his front wing, and was classified 10th- 2 laps down on Hakkinen.

Edited by joshb, 27 May 2013 - 15:31.

[Myrvold]

The same Villeneuve as 14 or 15 years later was hardly a gentleman racer at a track named after his father, when trying for a win in America's second tier roundy roundy farce racing.

Ah, I take it you actually watch NASCAR?;)

[Mila]

Diniz and Schumacher were definitely not fighting for position.

[joshb]

DC is right, ultimately.

It all traces back to F1 becoming much safer around the time that Senna entered the sport. His archrival Prost was around for the tail end of the "fireball" era and therefore treated contact with other cars as being something to be avoided at all costs. Senna saw this as a weakness in Prost and used it to his advantage. Instead of being reviled for such behavior he was celebrated by his fans (who would condone any action he took since he was so beloved it bordered on worship) and the nonsense about needing to be "ruthless" and have the "killer instinct" became accepted even by the pundits. In reality it's just poor sportsmanship, but since that's been dying a slow death in all sports during this same time period no one cared. The fact that previous great drivers (such as Stewart) found his tactics unacceptable was dismissed.

Schumacher's formative years took place as Senna was being celebrated for such behavior, so it's no wonder he followed the same path. This, in turn, has affected a great percentage of the current drivers who grew up idolizing the German.

What's amazing to me that we have a group of top drivers who appear to be from the "gentleman" school (Alonso, Raikkonen, Button, Webber and even Hamilton at this point). The drivers younger than this, however, are also part of the videogame generation where everyone (me included) drivers likes there is no danger because, well, it's a game and there is no danger. They are also too young to remember and have been affected by Senna's death so to them F1 is totally safe, just like those games. However, the reality is that tragedy could still strike F1. We've had a few close calls in the last couple of years as flying cars have come close to hitting helmets (Alonso and Schumi are the two potential victims in the two incidents that come to mind) and every high-speed accident increases the probability of such horrors happening. The cars and circuits of today are nearly as safe as can be, so the biggest safety gains left are in the minds of the drivers.

Agree with the vast majority, but some of those driver you mention I wouldn't say are 'Gentlemen' drivers. Gentlemen drivers don't have their teammates up against the pit wall at 180 mph to name 1 example, but no doubt the drivers of today factor in the safety of the cars and will push is as a result, thinking they're not gonna hurt anyone.

[Sakae]

Having career of a racing driver on your CV doesn't necessarily implies, that you are a good race commentator, or good at anything else, actually. BBC has hitched their future with people like Benson, Coulthard, and others, and bias, incendiary, or any other tones doesn't seems to bother them. Protests like in this thread will not help. Finding a better broadcaster perhaps might.

Edited by Sakae, 27 May 2013 - 15:42.

[JtP1]

DC, a man of limited recollection. After some of the moves by DC over the years he should critisise anyone and that includes those he tried to lap and those trying to lap him.

[boldhakka]

Comparing Perez' dilettante & brash dive-bombing with Schumacher's confident & intimidating overtaking skills is beyond me.

MS, Montoya, LH, AS and Kimi all know/knew despite their aggressiveness how to drive a car wheel-to-wheel, whereas Perez is just a punk who has not figured out yet that two material objects cannot occupy the same space at the same time.

[muramasa]

I lost quite a bit of respect for DC when he said it's coz Japanese/Asian has slit/small eyes so have narrower vision so cannot see other cars around well or sth like that when Kamui had near-miss (or couldve been actual collision, i forgot) with someone else.

[Baddoer]

Austria 1999, anyone?

[tkulla]

To the OP - please include a link to the article in question when creating threads like this one. Thanks.

[Sakae]

Comparing Perez' dilettante & brash dive-bombing with Schumacher's confident & intimidating overtaking skills is beyond me.

MS, Montoya, LH, AS and Kimi all know/knew despite their aggressiveness how to drive a car wheel-to-wheel, whereas Perez is just a punk who has not figured out yet that two material objects cannot occupy the same space at the same time.

Well, probably neither is Whitmarsh, since he condones Perez's driving techniques.

[undersquare]

Checo is nothing like as dirty as Schumi. He's a bit impetuous, that's all, it's quite a different thing from Schumi's policy of finding areas where other drivers didn't like to go but the stewards wouldn't quite take action.

Perez reminds me of a young JPM, more than anyone.

[Risil]

I lost quite a bit of respect for DC when he said it's coz Japanese/Asian has slit/small eyes so have narrower vision so cannot see other cars around well or sth like that when Kamui had near-miss (or couldve been actual collision, i forgot) with someone else.

wat

[midgrid]

I lost quite a bit of respect for DC when he said it's coz Japanese/Asian has slit/small eyes so have narrower vision so cannot see other cars around well or sth like that when Kamui had near-miss (or couldve been actual collision, i forgot) with someone else.

But even Kamui himself has said the same thing....

[SpartanChas]

I lost quite a bit of respect for DC when he said it's coz Japanese/Asian has slit/small eyes so have narrower vision so cannot see other cars around well or sth like that when Kamui had near-miss (or couldve been actual collision, i forgot) with someone else.

I'm pretty sure this is something Kobayashi himself said.

e: thankfully only took a couple of minutes to dig up; http://www.formula1....0/11/11568.html

Edited by SpartanChas, 27 May 2013 - 16:28.

[TheThirdTenor1]

Austria 1999, anyone?

"Oh David, what are you doing?"

[Sakae]

Checo is nothing like as dirty as Schumi. He's a bit impetuous, that's all, it's quite a different thing from Schumi's policy of finding areas where other drivers didn't like to go but the stewards wouldn't quite take action.

Perez reminds me of a young JPM, more than anyone.

Schumacher was a racer from different era, when rough and hard driving was expected. He has lived in the zone beyond what many of us can comprehend, which is why he is, and not us, a seven times champion, but he was never dirty. It is not in his character, notwithstanding what his detractors do say. He operated in a fast lane, and things do happen there in nano-seconds. We can than yak about it later. I do object your characterization of him, and if you cannot understand it, that's your problem, but not Schumacher's.

[SenorSjon]

DC is right, ultimately.

It all traces back to F1 becoming much safer around the time that Senna entered the sport. His archrival Prost was around for the tail end of the "fireball" era and therefore treated contact with other cars as being something to be avoided at all costs. Senna saw this as a weakness in Prost and used it to his advantage. Instead of being reviled for such behavior he was celebrated by his fans (who would condone any action he took since he was so beloved it bordered on worship) and the nonsense about needing to be "ruthless" and have the "killer instinct" became accepted even by the pundits. In reality it's just poor sportsmanship, but since that's been dying a slow death in all sports during this same time period no one cared. The fact that previous great drivers (such as Stewart) found his tactics unacceptable was dismissed.

Schumacher's formative years took place as Senna was being celebrated for such behavior, so it's no wonder he followed the same path. This, in turn, has affected a great percentage of the current drivers who grew up idolizing the German.

What's amazing to me that we have a group of top drivers who appear to be from the "gentleman" school (Alonso, Raikkonen, Button, Webber and even Hamilton at this point). The drivers younger than this, however, are also part of the videogame generation where everyone (me included) drivers likes there is no danger because, well, it's a game and there is no danger. They are also too young to remember and have been affected by Senna's death so to them F1 is totally safe, just like those games. However, the reality is that tragedy could still strike F1. We've had a few close calls in the last couple of years as flying cars have come close to hitting helmets (Alonso and Schumi are the two potential victims in the two incidents that come to mind) and every high-speed accident increases the probability of such horrors happening. The cars and circuits of today are nearly as safe as can be, so the biggest safety gains left are in the minds of the drivers.

Schumacher adopted the Senna style after some incidents in 1992 between him and Senna. Senna got away with it, so Schumacher adopted it. A bit like Perez getting a free pass on Alonso.

The post testban generation looks for the reset switch after every crash, but are disappointed they can't find it. Chances are you run out of fuel or tires before reaching a barrier or gravel trap on new tracks. Tarmac runoffs, everything has been made relatively riskless.

Barrichello vs Schumacher @ Hungary was a lot of fuss because they were teammates. We've seen it before (Webber starts that year) and we've seen it again last year without much noting.

[Tarzaan]

Is that Damon "whoops, I seem to have just totally fudged it in Silverstone 95 and rammed us both off the track" Hill?
As in Damon "Oh look, there's a disappearing gap, he looks to be going awfully slowly but I'm too far back, oh screw it I'll hurtle up the inside anyway.. Oh. Bugger." Hill?

And Jaques "Point, squeeze, weave whilst racing under suspension, oh, didn't do anything beneficial, appeal removed" Villeneuve?
Jaques "lucky he tried to hit me, or I'd have been in the gravel in a cloud of lockup smoke and shame" Villeneuve. The same Villeneuve as 14 or 15 years later was hardly a gentleman racer at a track named after his father, when trying for a win in America's second tier roundy roundy farce racing.

I don't mind DC's commentary for the most part, same goes for Brundle's. But they've both been quick to try to stick the knife in when it comes to Schumacher. It's one of the few bright sides to Schumacher retiring again, there's less bitterness and sniping from the commentary boxes.

+1