34 replies to this topic

[rwhitworth]

I was interested to see Brabham BT24-3 in the paddock at Brands Hatch, but unfortunately there was nobody about that I could ask about it. It seemed curious to me that it has Brabham's name on the side, and I also wondered whether the Repco engine is its original.

On returning home, I can see that I was right to wonder about both points: http://www.oldracing...hp?CarID=BT24/3

It ran in the lunch-time demonstration, and I think the commentator said it belongs to Ron Maydon. They also - correctly* - talked about it being Jochen Rindt's car.

Anyone know any more about it?

*EDIT: incorrectly, as becomes clear below

Edited by rwhitworth, 27 May 2013 - 18:33.

[Giraffe]

My understanding that this is the John Dimmer built replica that was purchased as such by Ron Maydon in 2008, having been the subject of much controversy. I'm sure it's all documented somewhere on the forum?

To quote Beat Schenker from May 2010, "It's ex de Siebenthal, Soprano, Topran, Dimmer BT24 replica, based on a BT23 chassis (maybe 04) and a 620 based engine with 740 heads "

Edited by Giraffe, 27 May 2013 - 16:51.

[rwhitworth]

My understanding that this is the John Dimmer built replica that was purchased as such by Ron Maydon in 2008, having been the subject of much controversy. I'm sure it's all documented somewhere on the forum?

To quote Beat Schenker from May 2010, "It's ex de Siebenthal, Soprano, Topran, Dimmer BT24 replica, based on a BT23 chassis (maybe 04) and a 620 based engine with 740 heads "

Ah yes, that rings a bell - thanks.

Strange then that it has "Motor Racing Developments BT24 - 03" as a plate on the dash, if it isn't actually that car.

[Tim Murray]

Here's the most relevant thread discussing the genuine car and the 'replica':

The cars of Silvio Moser

and here's another thread with some photos showing Beat Schenker's restoration of the genuine car:

Brabham Cosworth BT24-3 in progress

[rwhitworth]

Thanks for the links. Yes, I now remember reading that very confusing story several years ago. That must be what triggered the mental alarm bells when I saw the car today!

My obsession stems from BT24-1 being the only F1 car I have ever sat in

[bschenker]

Jochen Rindt is driven only the BT24-2 GP South Africa in 1968, today, if my skills are up to date, the car is owned one of the descendants of Sam Tingle and is in Donington. Also the original BT24-3 was driven by him, built for him in 1968, for use attending it’s was ready his BT26 Repco. But certainly he has not driven this supposed BT24.

However its correct Jack Brabham has driven this wrong BT24 in Adelaide 2000. Enclosed Jack's opinion about this vehicle.
Letter from Ron Tauranac

Also a link to an Interesting article.
Old Cars In Law

When Ron Maydon had bought this vehicle, he informed me that He is aware that it is not an original BT24.

.

[rwhitworth]

Fascinating - thanks for responding, Beat.

How is it going with the restoration of the real BT24-3?

[bschenker]

Too slow.

All parts that I need come single, and after a long wait.

Still wait for parts ordered in 2008.

.

[Andrew Fellowes]

To quote Beat Schenker from May 2010, "It's ex de Siebenthal, Soprano, Topran, Dimmer BT24 replica, based on a BT23 chassis (maybe 04) and a 620 based engine with 740 heads "

The short history of BT23-4 is here http://www.oldracing...s/brabham/bt23/ so as can be seen it would be quite possible but its not the only one missing!

[bschenker]

There is a part of this false BT24, at least upon arrival in the United States, who probably had to do with Silvio Moser.

The engine is most probably one of the engines of Charles Vögeles BT20-2 and was installed in 1968 along with a new DG300 Hewlandgearbox in Vögeles Porsche 910. This car ended up in French-speaking Switzerland, and was built there back to original.

Now De Siebenthal the builder of this fraud was in Lausanne, in French-speaking Switzerland, and at the time specialized on Porsche.

Not cleared the origins and time of installation from the 740 heads.

.

Edited by bschenker, 27 May 2013 - 22:21.

[Paul Hamilton]

I was interested to see Brabham BT24-3 in the paddock at Brands Hatch, but unfortunately there was nobody about that I could ask about it. It seemed curious to me that it has Brabham's name on the side, and I also wondered whether the Repco engine is its original.

On returning home, I can see that I was right to wonder about both points: http://www.oldracing...hp?CarID=BT24/3

It ran in the lunch-time demonstration, and I think the commentator said it belongs to Ron Maydon. They also - correctly* - talked about it being Jochen Rindt's car.

Anyone know any more about it?

*EDIT: incorrectly, as becomes clear below

I drove this car in the lunch time demo yesterday and can confirm that it is owned by Ron Maydon. Ron is fully aware of the car's provenance and quite openly describes it as a replica. It is not a precise replica in various areas of detail but its a pretty impressive machine nevertheless.

[rwhitworth]

I drove this car in the lunch time demo yesterday and can confirm that it is owned by Ron Maydon. Ron is fully aware of the car's provenance and quite openly describes it as a replica. It is not a precise replica in various areas of detail but its a pretty impressive machine nevertheless.

Thanks for chipping in, Paul. I couldn't hear all of the commentary (partly drowned out by the pack of BRM V12s) so I didn't know who was driving. It sounds like the commentators were not aware of the car's status, as they were talking about Rindt and what might nave been if he had stayed with Brabham.

It certainly looked good, anyway, both in the paddock and on track.

[Supersox]

I drove this car in the lunch time demo yesterday and can confirm that it is owned by Ron Maydon. Ron is fully aware of the car's provenance and quite openly describes it as a replica. It is not a precise replica in various areas of detail but its a pretty impressive machine nevertheless.

So just to clarify we have an inaccurate replica, being run by the man who is the owner of the business which runs the FIA championship for old Formula 1 cars being gently enthused over by the Australian representative on the FIA Historic Motor sport commission -CAMS-themselves an organisation which takes a particular spin on old racing cars.
Double standards seems inadequate somehow.

[Ray Bell]

Yep...

All the ingredients for intrigue, argument etc are there.

But maybe we should just leave them out and accept that people saw a nice car?

[Giraffe]

Yep...

All the ingredients for intrigue, argument etc are there.

But maybe we should just leave them out and accept that people saw a nice car?

It's all been thrashed out in the courts already Ray, so it's old hat really. A previous owner sued the FIA, who subsequently had a man on the case for some 12 months or more.

[Supersox]

Yep...

All the ingredients for intrigue, argument etc are there.

But maybe we should just leave them out and accept that people saw a nice car?

Ah the Goodwood defence. Its only a show old boy as long as the thing looks like a racing car and sounds like a racing car we can sell it to the general public as a racing car and after the beer and circus they go home happy.

[bschenker]

It is not a precise replica in various areas of detail but its a pretty impressive machine nevertheless.

This is not a surprise!

The BT24 was born from the experience with Jack Brabham's 1967 Tasman car, the BT23A where the Repco 740 was applied for the first time. Some of the changes were incorporated also in the BT23C. Ever in the BT23 series barely missing a version for all engines available at that time, including the BT23G for this Repco engine.

The three built BT24 among themselves tensioning a significant difference in the rear bulkhead.
- BT24-1 was first fitted with a Hewland FT200, so that you will see Original mounting point on this car, and the change made for the DG300 version.
- BT24-2 missing the attachment point for the smaller transmission, but it is clear that this was not planned from begins for DG300.
- BT24-3 in Origin the reserve chassis is clearly built for the Hewland DG300. However, on begin of 1968 this frame was finished as a race car and it’s was used the FG400. This chassis was always used only with this Hewland variant.

The fact is that today Ron Maydon’s car is a BT23 chassis rebuilt to fit a Repco RB620 engine with 740 heads.

But in any case it is never a BT24.

.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Supersox
Ah the Goodwood defence. Its only a show old boy as long as the thing looks like a racing car and sounds like a racing car we can sell it to the general public as a racing car and after the beer and circus they go home happy.

Not at all... and I will thank you if you don't accuse me of that again...

I do have a desire to see some form of acceptance of good replicas where the originals connot exist. But I have no desire to see anyone pass off a replica as a real car, therefore this car, with its provenance very publicly known, shouldn't be an issue.

There are a great many cars which aren't genuine and are passed off as such, why don't you go away and vilify them?

[bschenker]

Like some Jaguar XK 120C clearly declared as Replica.

.

I have no problem with replicas, even if 100% the original in every detail, as long as they are clearly marked as replicas.

When I found out that there is next to our car, a car that is considered original, I was told by a world renowned expert, I had to prove with dated pictures and others that our car is the original.

Why do I have for something that’s documented since 14 May 1969 was always in my hand I have to constantly collecting evidence in order to convince others that this is so?

As I later found out this expert knew long before that is the case.

What bothers me is that a vehicle that was clearly recognized as a false is still presented as BT24-3 without a clear indication that it's just not the BT24-3.
At least 80% of the people who have seen this car believe he is in front of the original and that is clearly not in correct.

.

Edited by bschenker, 28 May 2013 - 09:36.

[rwhitworth]

There is clearly a difference in intent between a forgery and a replica. But sometimes the distinction can become a bit blurred, as here we have (it would seem) a forgery that has been uncovered, and has evolved into a replica which has its own interesting history and merits.

Also, it isn't always a clean distinction between a restoration, a reconstruction and a replica. More of a continuum. For instance, which category does the "Jim Clark" Lotus 49 fall into?

A further factor is between reproducing a type of car, and reconstructing (or forging) a specific car and hijacking its history.

I have no problem with this particular "BT24" being shown, driven, and even raced for the benefit of fans (although perhaps other competitors wouldn't be quite so happy). It is a nice car! I do have a problem with it being described by the commentators (probably inadvertently) as being an ex-Rindt car.

I think if it were mine, I would also feel a little uneasy about displaying this:

[Ray Bell]

Same here...

That really does spoil the whole story.

[Andrew Fellowes]

I have no problem with this particular "BT24" being shown, driven, and even raced for the benefit of fans (although perhaps other competitors wouldn't be quite so happy). It is a nice car! I do have a problem with it being described by the commentators (probably inadvertently) as being an ex-Rindt car.

I have a problem with that as its a BT23 and should be restored as such. I imagine its RF number has long gone but it would be interesting to know one way or the other.

[bschenker]

For me, the problem with this car is not that it takes part in historical events, the problem is how.

A BT23 chassis of the first series was converted to take a Repco engine, which is certainly not objectionable. The problem is that this car was created from the start to make money with a false identity and money was made.

When I became aware of the car, I got in touch with the owner. Because of all the communication I am convinced that this owner was due to various reasons doubts about the car, but the supposedly complete documentation and owning a historically valuable vehicle took the upper hand.

Now, as we know was the court confirmed that this car is not a BT24 and certainly not BT24-3. We also know that the current owner which was fully conscious when he bought this car.

What I do not like that this car is still always presented as BT24-3 and is also listed as such in programs and result lists.

Not only, I could find this is also told viewers that way. Only when people realize that the questioner knows a bit more it is confirmed that it is a copy. A friend from me, at the Nürburgring, the only proper ding that was said that this car was driven by Jack Brabham (Adelaide 2000).

Now this car is not a BT24 and certainly not the BT24-3. This car is not even a copy of a BT24. This car is a BT23 with a Repco engine.

I have no problem with this vehicle that participates in events, but not as BT24-3, not even as a BT24-3 copy or replica, what simply this car is not.

.

[Giraffe]

I have seen the car testing at Mallory, and going up the hill at Goodwood, but I cannot recall seeing it in a race.

[MODE]

This one ?

http://www.gurneyfla...rces/HO8493.jpg

[Allen Brown]

I have always listed this car on OldRacingCars.com as "Brabham BT24/3-R" as it is intended to represent BT24/3, rather than just being a representation of a generic BT24.

However, ORC was out of date on location (an increasing problem as we try to cover more and more cars) so I have just updated it to show BT24/3 in Switzerland in 2013 and "Brabham BT24/3-R" in the UK.

By the way, if anyone would like to volunteer to help keep ORC's records up to date by reporting in from historic meetings, I would love to talk to them (allen@oldracingcars.com). I believe our pages provide a useful public service but without more resource, we too often lag behind the latest changes of ownership.

[jj2728]

Not one of my better snaps,
Moser at speed during a practice session USGP 1969



Copyright JAG

[Andrew Fellowes]

Now this car is not a BT24 and certainly not the BT24-3. This car is not even a copy of a BT24. This car is a BT23 with a Repco engine.

I have no problem with this vehicle that participates in events, but not as BT24-3, not even as a BT24-3 copy or replica, what simply this car is not.

So true.

Simple solution,
Make a BT24 replica chassis, transfer the running gear. Result Genuine Replica
Rebuild the existing chassis as a BT23, the value should easily exceed the cost so isn't this a win win?

[Giraffe]

the BT24-2 GP South Africa if my skills are up to date, the car is owned one of the descendants of Sam Tingle and is in Donington.

.

BT24-2 making a somewhat spectacular appearance at Goodwood! It was listed as being entered by John Tingle, and driven by Malcolm Oastler and Sam Tingle Jnr.

[Ray Bell]

That should be way more potent than the Bowin I recall Malcolm racing...

What's actually happening there?

[Giraffe]

What's actually happening there?

A Merc firing up nextdoor!

[Dipster]

A Merc firing up nextdoor!

A diesel Merc?!

[275 GTB-4]

Not one of my better snaps,
Moser at speed during a practice session USGP 1969



Copyright JAG

Maybe Graham Hill should have copyrighted his helmet then!

[Ray Bell]

Why?

Do you see some similarities?

[ozpata]

hope you don't mind me posting this

http://oscarplada.blogspot.com/