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Pikes Peak 2013


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#1 MatsNorway

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 18:01

The Animal has resurrected. Video in the article.
http://doyouwantmeto...Photography.php

Very excited to see something that got the power to weight ratio to match the 208 T16. And a seasoned driver.

Edited by MatsNorway, 27 May 2013 - 18:01.


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#2 desmo

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 03:42

Seen the diffusers under the factory Pug racing this year? Yikes. Good stuff.

#3 MatsNorway

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 17:38

Big it is. But i am disappointed that they did not implement exhaust blown diffuser tech. The engine is after all right there and they have the space to do it. I mean.. come on.. even the front motor 405 T16 kinda has it.

http://i2.ytimg.com/...xresdefault.jpg

Edited by MatsNorway, 29 May 2013 - 17:44.


#4 GBarclay

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 16:54

The Animal has resurrected. Video in the article.
http://doyouwantmeto...Photography.php

Very excited to see something that got the power to weight ratio to match the 208 T16. And a seasoned driver.


Damn MatsNorway

you are quite the fan, I did not think that video had made the rounds outside some of us locals

that car is testing today at Pikes Peak Raceway PPIR in Fountain, Joel, the owner of Yust Photo will be in attendance, so expect some updates.

#5 MatsNorway

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 18:38

Internet got no boundaries. Its both scary and beautiful :)

I really do enjoy this type of unlimited racing. Lets call it manly enough to be worth watching unlike most series. Having enough power to actually challenge the tires out of the corners is allways good fun to watch.
One of my favorite builds. Silver state classic winner and the fastest street car for a short period. I only wish he did more on the aero side, its so brute force now.



Romain Dumas is a contender too this year if he gets a decent turbo engine for hes car.
http://www.endurance...ocus-18587.html
Posted Image

Edited by MatsNorway, 06 June 2013 - 18:43.


#6 GBarclay

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 21:46

Internet got no boundaries. Its both scary and beautiful :)

I really do enjoy this type of unlimited racing. Lets call it manly enough to be worth watching unlike most series. Having enough power to actually challenge the tires out of the corners is allways good fun to watch.
One of my favorite builds. Silver state classic winner and the fastest street car for a short period. I only wish he did more on the aero side, its so brute force now.



Romain Dumas is a contender too this year if he gets a decent turbo engine for hes car.
http://www.endurance...ocus-18587.html
Posted Image


Love the Norma, hope it is fast. I have an LS they can use, :p

Will be at testing tomorrow morning, we test June 15/16 on the mountain, but will test at Pikes Peak International Raceway before then.

#7 scolbourne

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 03:36

Shame all these dinasaurs will be beaten by a simple battery powered car !!!

#8 packapoo

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 04:08

Only on your dining-room track.

#9 MatsNorway

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 05:50

The Norma with a proper 4-5cyl turbo probably got the most growth potensial of the lot for the future.

A battery car will not win anything unlimited yet.

Edited by MatsNorway, 08 June 2013 - 13:14.


#10 GBarclay

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 17:57

Shame all these dinasaurs will be beaten by a simple battery powered car !!!


You may well be correct, one day.

from what I saw this morning at testing, Loeb might set a time we all thought impossible, and it will be well beyond the e-cars capabilities (for the next decade or so)



#11 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 20:00

Hi all, I'm no PP expert but what is the reason for the change to all tarmac? Seeing LM type cars do Pikes Peak just doesn't seem right. Surely the challenge used to be the dual surface and how your car or tyres were setup to be better on one or the other.

#12 desmo

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 20:55

It's a public road.

#13 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 23:43

Hi all, I'm no PP expert but what is the reason for the change to all tarmac? Seeing LM type cars do Pikes Peak just doesn't seem right. Surely the challenge used to be the dual surface and how your car or tyres were setup to be better on one or the other.

I too regret the out and out race cars on Pikes Peak. The footage I have seen over the years has had some wild and wonderfull one offs. Plus things like Sprintcars and midgets.
Now it is just another road race venue, though still very daunting.
I suspect the reason it was bitumenised is that it is a tourist road, far safer and cheaper to maintain when blacktopped than gravel.
A local venue I go to once a year is similar, a very steep flowing country road with a tourist viewing area [stunning views] . Sealed to make maintenance largely a thing of the past. Erosion can kill hill roads very quickly. Though the runoff at the top is still gravel !

#14 scolbourne

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 04:27

Where are the testing results from this years Pikes Peak posted ?
I reckon an electric car will make the top five this year.

#15 MatsNorway

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 07:09

I reckon an electric car will make the top five this year.


I take that bet.

The real question is. Will loeb take it. I consider him favorite to do it. Got a killer car there.


Rhys millens car.
Posted Image
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https://fbcdn-sphoto...355855392_n.jpg

Edited by MatsNorway, 09 June 2013 - 07:20.


#16 scolbourne

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 06:12

I think there are so far 7 electric vehicles entered (I am not sure whether that includes bikes).

I think they will get to the top five if all goes well. We will soon see in two weeks time.

#17 MatsNorway

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 16:00

Phantom drawing of the Lovefab NSX. there is a different drawing on hes facebook page. More sleek front with the radiator on the sides. Single seater and more prototype like.
Posted Image

Chassie. Comments?
Posted Image
He will struggle for front grip again it looks like but he knows what hes doing now. I am surprised no one makes an elevated front like the prototypes. That way you can get some front grip by ground effects.
Posted Image

Edited by MatsNorway, 10 June 2013 - 16:05.


#18 GBarclay

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 17:56

Hi all, I'm no PP expert but what is the reason for the change to all tarmac?


The Sierra Club sued the City of Colorado Springs - the owners of the road, in the early 90's forcing them to pave the whole road.

While the style of car racing may change, the variety of vehicles is large, and the challenge still immense, possibly harder than when it was dirt.

There will not be any official times posted until practice week starts. The tests, while officially sanctioned, are "private" and the times only posted on the timing trailer.



#19 GBarclay

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 18:00

Now it is just another road race venue, ......


Hardly. PP will never be just another anything. It was unique when dirt, and is still unique, though different, now it is fully paved. Slating it as just another road race venue shows a distinct lack of knowledge of the event.

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#20 Wuzak

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 22:56

How free are the rules?

Now that it is all tarmac you would think a suction car would be the go....

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#21 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 23:52

Hardly. PP will never be just another anything. It was unique when dirt, and is still unique, though different, now it is fully paved. Slating it as just another road race venue shows a distinct lack of knowledge of the event.

I think many will disagree with you. A very daunting venue, and as a hillclimb goes very long. But all bitumen is still not the same as multiple surfaces. That was unique. Though progress, and it is progress for the road itself has taken away some of the 'difference' for the event

#22 MatsNorway

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 07:46

Show us a similar event then. 10min long, high alltitude. Fast and dangerous with no performance limiting rules in the top class.

Edited by MatsNorway, 11 June 2013 - 07:47.


#23 scolbourne

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 10:18

There was a similar event hosted in New Zealand near Queenstown, explaining why the NZ people did well at PP.
I think the private road has been sold to several new owners , so there is not much chance of any more events in the near future.

#24 MatsNorway

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 10:45

What i do not understand is why rhys millen made a 2WD car when he had the 2011 4WD prototype silouette racer.

Perhaps he got some sick aero trick going on. The Rod Millen Celica had crazy aero. But that one also had 4wd.

Edited by MatsNorway, 12 June 2013 - 11:02.


#25 GBarclay

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 16:31

There will not be any official times posted until practice week starts. The tests, while officially sanctioned, are "private" and the times only posted on the timing trailer.


Well an improvement this year, the times ARE posted online

http://www.ppihc.com...esting-times-2/

Sunday times for the cars may not be a complete picture as I believe the cars were only timed to Boulder Park. There are some frost heaves in the road between Boulder Park and the Summit that are scheduled for repair this week.

A private test Friday morning, then the final testing this weekend prior to official race week.



#26 GBarclay

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 16:38

I think many will disagree with you. A very daunting venue, and as a hillclimb goes very long. But all bitumen is still not the same as multiple surfaces. That was unique. Though progress, and it is progress for the road itself has taken away some of the 'difference' for the event


Many may disagree, but I have to wonder how many of those have experience on the mountain, and are not just e-racers.

No doubt the hill was challenging when it was all dirt. And then the almost 2 decades of mixed surfaces added to the challenge. Unfortunately the mixed surface resulted in cars with very compromised setups, and cars that could only be used for one event per year - Pikes Peak. With the road all pavement, many with experience on the hill are now saying the challenge is greater than it ever has been. The road is significantly narrower than it ever was, there is no "cushion" afforded by the dirt, and speeds are higher in some sections. We are all grateful that we no longer have to run compromise setups or compromise tires, and most of us can now run the cars in other events during the season. Or better yet, we are seeing cars that never could have run on dirt now being able to be competitive at the event, and I for one, welcome that.

The road may have changed, possibly for the better, possibly for the worse, but the unlimited rule book barely stretches to 2 pages - and there are no other events that I can think of like that.

#27 MatsNorway

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 18:38

https://www.facebook...0...e=2

Lovefab got a Scary looking car coming. Impressive for a small crew. Oh and that engine sounds so right. :)

#28 Tony Matthews

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 19:47

Lovefab got a Scary looking car coming. Impressive for a small crew. Oh and that engine sounds so right. :)

Wonderful sound! Mind you, electric would sound better... ;)

#29 MatsNorway

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 15:26

Video and pictures of Rhys Millens car.

http://www.autoblog....g_river_article

#30 MatsNorway

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 15:44

http://www.gtspirit....Peugeot-208.jpg

Big diffuser indeed!

#31 chunder27

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 21:19

Can you believe how much quicker Seb is than everyone else!

I reckon he might even be able to get near to 9 flat, he is certain to totally muller everyone else unless Dumas or something can get dialled in quickly.

#32 pugfan

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 22:57

Can you believe how much quicker Seb is than everyone else!


Wouldn't it be a bit embarassing otherwise for a 9x rally champ?

#33 Wuzak

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 01:38

http://www.gtspirit....Peugeot-208.jpg

Big diffuser indeed!


Could they use a fan car?

#34 Kelpiecross

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 03:55

Could they use a fan car?


As Woozy has suggested a couple of times now - if the PP hillclimb is "Formula Libre" and a fan car is legal - surely it would be best?

#35 pugfan

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 04:19

As Woozy has suggested a couple of times now - if the PP hillclimb is "Formula Libre" and a fan car is legal - surely it would be best?


Driving in a rally style (particularly with lots of low speed hairpins) would favour a fan car I would think as conventional tunnels/ground effects would be sensitive to yaw?

Edited by pugfan, 18 June 2013 - 04:21.


#36 MatsNorway

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 07:19

Loeb is the only big name racer with a 4WD car. He gains so much in every single hairpin and slow corner.

I do not think it is superior in high speed. In essence it is a very ligth box with a big diffuser under it. On the faster stuff the monstrosity and the Norma should be competitive. (assuming 500hp+ in the Norma)

Some times from last year.

Race: http://www.ppihc.com/2012-results/
Article with some: http://www.autoblog....practice-day-2/

Edited by MatsNorway, 18 June 2013 - 07:20.


#37 GBarclay

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 16:43

If Loeb and Peugot keep it clean, and the mountain offers them a good run on race day, I fear we may see the record shattered. It may conceivably be set beyond the reach of any budget limited team for the foreseeable future.

They certainly have looked very good in practice.


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#38 GBarclay

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 16:50

The above picture really illustrates one of the aspects I love about Pikes Peak. A total amateur effort gets to run on the same race course under (mostly) the same conditions, on the same day as the very best in the world. Something certainly not possible at Monaco, Indy or the Daytona 500.

While the Mini may have less than 1/4 the HP of the Peugot, and is running on a budget likely about 1/100th that of the factory effort, the level of achievement of both teams should they see the checkered flag on race day is likely to be something that the crew and drivers remember for the rest of their lives.

Having our race car pictured with Loeb and the Peugot may just be one of the highlights of the racing life of Michele the Mini. :smoking:

#39 desmo

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 17:47

Oddly I suppose to most people's way of thinking, a formula libre offers the best hope of a budget limited team getting one over on a factory effort. Restrictive tech regs pretty much guarantee the winning edge will be bought with ruinously expensive endless detail development rather than innovation or new thinking which is potentially free. The bigger the entrants, the more risk averse and the more they fear having their enormous budgets cancelled out by someone with a better idea.

Stringent tech regs aren't really in place to encourage competitive parity; they are there to protect the investments of those with deep pockets and insecurity about their own abilities.

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#40 GBarclay

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 20:33

Oddly I suppose to most people's way of thinking, a formula libre offers the best hope of a budget limited team getting one over on a factory effort. Restrictive tech regs pretty much guarantee the winning edge will be bought with ruinously expensive endless detail development rather than innovation or new thinking which is potentially free. The bigger the entrants, the more risk averse and the more they fear having their enormous budgets cancelled out by someone with a better idea.

Stringent tech regs aren't really in place to encourage competitive parity; they are there to protect the investments of those with deep pockets and insecurity about their own abilities.


Exactly.

There is still plenty of innovation (some may call it Redneck Engineering) on the mountain. Former stock cars now sporting open wheels and massive wings. E-cars from both factory efforts (Toyota and Mitsubishi), and from small shops. The Unlimited class with a huge variety of vehicles, yet pretty close in times. The one big game changer can be experience, so a low budget team with an experienced driver can sure take it to the big boys, often just through sheer determination.

Loeb and Peugeot may well be out of the league though this year. It is going to be awesome.

#41 MatsNorway

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 08:15

Colorado Time → CEST
Colorado, United States Time: 08.00 (am)
Central European Summer Time:16.00 (04.00pm)

#42 CSquared

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 19:10

The above picture really illustrates one of the aspects I love about Pikes Peak. A total amateur effort gets to run on the same race course under (mostly) the same conditions, on the same day as the very best in the world. Something certainly not possible at Monaco, Indy or the Daytona 500.

While the Mini may have less than 1/4 the HP of the Peugot, and is running on a budget likely about 1/100th that of the factory effort, the level of achievement of both teams should they see the checkered flag on race day is likely to be something that the crew and drivers remember for the rest of their lives.

Having our race car pictured with Loeb and the Peugot may just be one of the highlights of the racing life of Michele the Mini. :smoking:

:clap: That's so awesome. Wish I could have made it to watch this year. Best of luck!

#43 jpf

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 03:34

I can't help but feel kind of amazed that a 911 GT3-R set a faster time than all of those unlimited cars, some of which have to be putting out double or more power, have big honking wings and who knows what else. It's about .02 sec off the overall record.

The Palatov won its class last year with a time 18sec off the 911 GT3-R, despite carrying only ~3.7 lb/hp vs. 5.3 lb/hp for the Porsche. Is the difference all chassis setup? Having a world class driver in Romain Dumas, who set the time?

How is it possible that the unlimited class specials are not stomping all over the 911? I know it's only been one year with a fully paved course which might affect the balance of performance.

#44 JimboJones

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 05:25

Big it is. But i am disappointed that they did not implement exhaust blown diffuser tech. The engine is after all right there and they have the space to do it. I mean.. come on.. even the front motor 405 T16 kinda has it.

http://i2.ytimg.com/...xresdefault.jpg


I think the Pug's diffuser is actually pretty disappointing, much like the whole aero package. Formula Student cars are more impressive aerodynamically than this.
And the T16 doesn't have an exhaust blown diffuser, just happens to come out there. The development costs in that technology are insane (to have the engine/exhausts survive when you're igniting gases at full throttle outside of the engine), and whilst it gives a noticeable gain in F1, the fact you can run unregulated floor geometry, plus skirts/fans makes EBD a pointless exercise at Pikes Peak.

I can't help but feel kind of amazed that a 911 GT3-R set a faster time than all of those unlimited cars, some of which have to be putting out double or more power, have big honking wings and who knows what else. It's about .02 sec off the overall record.

The Palatov won its class last year with a time 18sec off the 911 GT3-R, despite carrying only ~3.7 lb/hp vs. 5.3 lb/hp for the Porsche. Is the difference all chassis setup? Having a world class driver in Romain Dumas, who set the time?

How is it possible that the unlimited class specials are not stomping all over the 911? I know it's only been one year with a fully paved course which might affect the balance of performance.


I think this highlights the horrendous standard of engineering on most of the unlimited cars. Yes, they have way more power, but they haven't a clue when it comes to the chassis side, which is probably more important on a hill climb. The Porsche is a properly sorted racing car, and I'd imagine a professional driver brings a huge chunk of laptime too. Same with the Peogeot i feel; that car is nothing special at all, it's just bloody well sorted, puts it's power down, and has arguably the best driver in the world at the wheel. If Peugeot wanted to set an unbeatable record, they would have given it 1500hp and a proper aero package.

#45 scolbourne

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 07:07

I can't help but feel kind of amazed that a 911 GT3-R set a faster time than all of those unlimited cars, some of which have to be putting out double or more power, have big honking wings and who knows what else. It's about .02 sec off the overall record.

The Palatov won its class last year with a time 18sec off the 911 GT3-R, despite carrying only ~3.7 lb/hp vs. 5.3 lb/hp for the Porsche. Is the difference all chassis setup? Having a world class driver in Romain Dumas, who set the time?

How is it possible that the unlimited class specials are not stomping all over the 911? I know it's only been one year with a fully paved course which might affect the balance of performance.

And then the 911 was beaten by a Hyundai :)

#46 MatsNorway

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 14:22

I think the Pug's diffuser is actually pretty disappointing, much like the whole aero package. Formula Student cars are more impressive aerodynamically than this.

Show us.

How can you call this diffuser small?

http://www.gtspirit....Peugeot-208.jpg
Note the fleksible ends on the sidewalls on the diffuser to get the diffuser sealed as much as possible.


And the T16 doesn't have an exhaust blown diffuser,

Kinda is the word you should not have skipped. And having off throttle blowing might be difficult but EDB can be done without. The Pat Doran RS200 allready got it..

http://www.speedhunt...s12part1-31.jpg
http://images.piston...mDoran_05-L.jpg
Last years article: http://www.speedhunt...torsport_rs200/

I think this highlights the horrendous standard of engineering on most of the unlimited cars. Yes, they have way more power, but they haven't a clue when it comes to the chassis side, which is probably more important on a hill climb. The Porsche is a properly sorted racing car, and I'd imagine a professional driver brings a huge chunk of laptime too. Same with the Peogeot i feel; that car is nothing special at all, it's just bloody well sorted, puts it's power down, and has arguably the best driver in the world at the wheel. If Peugeot wanted to set an unbeatable record, they would have given it 1500hp and a proper aero package.


Are you talking about last years times? Because im pretty sure there will be a world of difference this year. Most of the unlimited cars last year did not even start or finish.

Edited by MatsNorway, 20 June 2013 - 14:41.


#47 JimboJones

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 16:11

Show us.

How can you call this diffuser small?


Never called it small... disappointing. Plenty of proper wing packages at FSAE Michigan earlier this year. Few teams extend the diffuser to the maximum space of the regs, and skirts are not allowed, but I still think the thought put into generating downforce demonstrates a much better effort. The fact Peugeot just bolted on an LMP1 wing they had lying around, rather than a bespoke design says it all...
https://www.facebook...4...9683&type=1

Edited by JimboJones, 20 June 2013 - 16:13.


#48 MatsNorway

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 16:32

Never called it small... disappointing. Plenty of proper wing packages at FSAE Michigan earlier this year. Few teams extend the diffuser to the maximum space of the regs, and skirts are not allowed, but I still think the thought put into generating downforce demonstrates a much better effort. The fact Peugeot just bolted on an LMP1 wing they had lying around, rather than a bespoke design says it all...
https://www.facebook...4...9683&type=1


I see your point. Time will tell if the crazy wings is the future.

#49 MatsNorway

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 17:22

Let me moderate my first statement. I expect most of the unlimiteds to be safely in front of the time attack cars but those semi pro/pro time attack cars only got more weight to drag around compared to the amatur unlimiteds. Dallenbach knows the mountain. That has to count for something, same for Jeff Zwart. I expect them to be top contender this year in Time attack. And i expect them to beat the backmarkers in unlimited, the camaro and so on.

http://slashdrive.tv...with-jeff-zwart

Lets guess the lowest total times in unlimited for good fun.

Here is my top 10 pick for practice.

1. Loeb in the pug
2. Romain Dumas (assuming 650hp)
3. 1400hp thingy
4. The box with a R35 motor and a mini logo on it.
5. Rhys Millen
6. Mark Rennison
7. Pat Doran
8. Dave Carapetyan
9. Cody Loveland (out due to crash during track testing)
10. Krisssomething thingy.

Edited by MatsNorway, 25 June 2013 - 18:34.


#50 MatsNorway

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 06:23

Posted Image

Edited by MatsNorway, 21 June 2013 - 06:23.