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Pikes Peak 2013


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#101 MatsNorway

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 16:37

MatsNorway, you have single-handedly revived my interest in Pikes Peak. Thanks, I'll see if I can get there next year.


Your welcome :) hope to see some pictures then and perhaps an article?

You also have to add that F1 cars only reach the proper performance with very small ride height because the diffusor contributes a lot of the downforce. For that concept to work you have to run the car very low which isn't feasible at PP.


Pug

Maximum power: 875hp
Torque: 900Nm
Maximum rpm: 7,800rpm
Top speed: 240kph
0-100kph: 1.8s
0-200kph: 4.8s
0-240kph: 7.0s



F1
0 to 100 km/h (62 mph): 1.7 seconds (sounds rather optimistic)
0 to 200 km/h (124 mph): 3.8 seconds
0 to 300 km/h (186 mph): 8.6 seconds

0-160-0 inn less than five seconds.



Wikipedia.

Quarter mile: about 8sec without drag spesific setup (estimated by you good folks some time ago)


For me there is little doubt a F1 car would take it. Loeb had and average of 141km`h

Edited by MatsNorway, 03 July 2013 - 05:57.


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#102 MatsNorway

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 17:27

http://www.youtube.c...E...screen&NR=1
http://www.youtube.c...eature=youtu.be

The electric cars sound so silly. Why not a sound thats more like a tier fighter/howard scream something scary to get people moving.
https://www.youtube....mM87r1ft4#t=82s

As long as its more than a certain db above XXkm`h.

Edit: after some thinking i suggest two stroke sound. Anything with a two stroke sounds like its about to break the speed of light.

Play it loud


Onboard with Pat Doran. Too much people on the wrong places for my liking.

Edited by MatsNorway, 01 July 2013 - 17:56.


#103 Tony Matthews

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 18:16

The electric cars sound so silly. Why not a sound thats more like a tier fighter/howard scream something scary to get people moving.

The Tie Fighter would be great!




Edit: after some thinking i suggest two stroke sound. Anything with a two stroke sounds like its about to break the speed of light.

Play it loud

It's a great sound, it's just a bit disappointing when you expect to see a T-Rex come round the bend at high speed and all you get is a small red car...

Onboard with Pat Doran. Too much people on the wrong places for my liking.

Rally spectators have very little imagination. Mind you, if there were no barriers at Gran Prix circuits there would be spectators standing on the edge of the track.

#104 kikiturbo2

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 19:07

official onboard..

http://bcove.me/fo1v1bdy

#105 GBarclay

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 19:17

Skewed results for Monster and the e-machine, only because the Time Attack cars all encountered rain and a wet surface. The e-cars definitely had better conditions, but no small feat for Monster to beat his previous petrol powered time. And he showed up the factory efforts prettily handily.

To really toot the e-horn so to speak, look at the bike results. Carlin Dunne quickest on an e-bike, and only a dozen seconds slower than his 2012 full blown factory Ducati effort.

Most impressive as always, Mike Ryan and the Freightliner.

The Peugeot team deserve the accolades, they showed up with a budget, a proper car, one of the best drivers in history, ran every practice session they could including private testing, and were fortunate for good weather. Plus every single one of them we met were great guys and gals. Having Seb personally wish us luck on Sunday morning was a true David and Goliath moment. Allez Peugeot.

Mats, keep up the posting, makes me happy to see someone so enthused with the event. You ever make it here to Colorado, we would be happy to add you as crew for race week.

Personally, despite an entire run in pouring rain, on racing slicks, John managed to steer the Mini to the Mountain Summit. Michele the Mini is now 3 for 3 on the hill, and John managed to better several cars in Time Attack including Porsche, Mustang, Evo and BMW despite being over 100hp down on the next car in class, and 600hp down on the class winner. Anyone who saw the checkered flag yesterday is a winner in my book, it was a tough drive for anyone who ran in the rain or damp track. And the Mini is definitely one of the fan favorites when we look at the reaction during the winners parade down the mountain.

only 364 days until we do it again



#106 MatsNorway

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 19:55

Thank you :)

Congrats with a well done race at pikes peak. And if i ever get close to where you guys race i would love to give you a hand.

Edited by MatsNorway, 01 July 2013 - 19:56.


#107 canon1753

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 20:26

The Tie Fighter would be great!

My thought would be a BRM V16 sound at equivalent speed....

#108 CSquared

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 21:46

Skewed results for Monster and the e-machine, only because the Time Attack cars all encountered rain and a wet surface. The e-cars definitely had better conditions, but no small feat for Monster to beat his previous petrol powered time. And he showed up the factory efforts prettily handily.

To really toot the e-horn so to speak, look at the bike results. Carlin Dunne quickest on an e-bike, and only a dozen seconds slower than his 2012 full blown factory Ducati effort.

Most impressive as always, Mike Ryan and the Freightliner.

The Peugeot team deserve the accolades, they showed up with a budget, a proper car, one of the best drivers in history, ran every practice session they could including private testing, and were fortunate for good weather. Plus every single one of them we met were great guys and gals. Having Seb personally wish us luck on Sunday morning was a true David and Goliath moment. Allez Peugeot.

Mats, keep up the posting, makes me happy to see someone so enthused with the event. You ever make it here to Colorado, we would be happy to add you as crew for race week.

Personally, despite an entire run in pouring rain, on racing slicks, John managed to steer the Mini to the Mountain Summit. Michele the Mini is now 3 for 3 on the hill, and John managed to better several cars in Time Attack including Porsche, Mustang, Evo and BMW despite being over 100hp down on the next car in class, and 600hp down on the class winner. Anyone who saw the checkered flag yesterday is a winner in my book, it was a tough drive for anyone who ran in the rain or damp track. And the Mini is definitely one of the fan favorites when we look at the reaction during the winners parade down the mountain.

only 364 days until we do it again

GBarclay, I've tried to message you but get this "This message can not be sent because the recipient has their personal messenger disabled or they are in a member group not allowed to use the personal messenger."

#109 Tony Matthews

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 22:21

My thought would be a BRM V16 sound at equivalent speed....

I agree, I just limited my choice to Mat's options.

#110 pugfan

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 01:10

F1
0 to 100 km/h (62 mph): 1.7 seconds (sounds rather optimistic)
0 to 200 km/h (124 mph): 3.8 seconds
0 to 300 km/h (186 mph): 8.6 seconds

0-160-0 inn less than five seconds.


You reckon it will still be able to do those figures with less than 2/3rds of rated power due to altitude?

Edited by pugfan, 02 July 2013 - 01:10.


#111 gruntguru

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 03:34

You reckon it will still be able to do those figures with less than 2/3rds of rated power due to altitude?

Good point.

OTOH the F1 has a huge weight advantage (700kg with driver and fuel vs 1000 kg for the Pug). This translates to a power/weight advantage at the start and probably on par at the top.

Even more importantly, the lift/weight would almost certainly be higher for the F1 - add this to superior mechanical grip and its a no-brainer.

Ground clearance and tunnel performance is the only concern I see.

#112 scolbourne

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 04:44

Good point.

OTOH the F1 has a huge weight advantage (700kg with driver and fuel vs 1000 kg for the Pug). This translates to a power/weight advantage at the start and probably on par at the top.

Even more importantly, the lift/weight would almost certainly be higher for the F1 - add this to superior mechanical grip and its a no-brainer.

Ground clearance and tunnel performance is the only concern I see.

I think a turbo F1 car would be required as otherwise the high altitude would greatly reduce the engine power. Larger wings would also help.


#113 pugfan

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 06:36

Good point.

OTOH the F1 has a huge weight advantage (700kg with driver and fuel vs 1000 kg for the Pug). This translates to a power/weight advantage at the start and probably on par at the top.


I disagree, I make it:

208: 875/1000 = .875 hp/kg
F1: 500/650 = .77 hp/kg

this is at the bottom of the mountain and with values skewed in favour of the F1 too. It gets a whole lot worse at the top assuming the 208 suffers little loss of power.

Even more importantly, the lift/weight would almost certainly be higher for the F1 - add this to superior mechanical grip and its a no-brainer.


I'm not sure about superior mechanical grip with highly regulated tyres designed to give the public a show (if the Pirrelli's hold together!) I suspect the 208 would have used the latest tyre technology from Le Mans cars and it's driving a second axle.

Ground clearance and tunnel performance is the only concern I see.


I don't think the 208 is light on tunnel performance either given the dust it was kicking up during practice.

Edit: Units of course.

Edited by pugfan, 02 July 2013 - 06:43.


#114 gruntguru

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 06:37

I think a turbo F1 car would be required as otherwise the high altitude would greatly reduce the engine power.

I disagree. The F1 would have a comparable power/weight (to the Pug) at the top of the climb and superior power/weight everywhere else.

#115 gruntguru

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 06:43

I disagree, I make it:

208: 875/1000 = .875 hp/tonne
F1: 500/650 = .77 hp/tonne


Correction.
208: 875/1000 = 875 hp/tonne
F1: 750/650 = 1153 hp/tonne

#116 pugfan

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 06:52

Correction.
208: 875/1000 = 875 hp/tonne
F1: 750/650 = 1153 hp/tonne


I've assumed that the 208 has 875hp at the altitude it's designed for, which I don't think is an unreasonable assumption but I could be wrong.

The F1 certainly won't have 1153hp/tonne on Pikes peak though. At the top it'll be around 575hp/tonne.



#117 kikiturbo2

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 09:12

I disagree. The F1 would have a comparable power/weight (to the Pug) at the top of the climb and superior power/weight everywhere else.



I think that due to the number of hairpins, F1 would be severely dissadvantaged... I highly doubt that we will ever see a new record in a 2WD car...

#118 kikiturbo2

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 09:14

I've assumed that the 208 has 875hp at the altitude it's designed for, which I don't think is an unreasonable assumption but I could be wrong.

The F1 certainly won't have 1153hp/tonne on Pikes peak though. At the top it'll be around 575hp/tonne.



According to the RR figures done on the car in colorado springs, the car had 815 HP at 1800 meters altitude.... However, and I might not be correct, US rolling road figures are almost always given on the wheels... ? so it might just be 815 HP at the wheels, which is a LOT..



#119 pugfan

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 10:50

Ground clearance and tunnel performance is the only concern I see.


Having just watched the Peugeot Sport in car footage, the F1 would have to be set with some serious ground clearance for the high speed top section of the mountain, very bumpy indeed.

Interestingly the 208 hits the rev limiter at one point (only once though) in 6th at around 240 - 250 km/h.

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#120 saudoso

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 10:52

The full run:

I'm amzed something this reckless can still take place in the U.S.A. :up:

Edited by saudoso, 02 July 2013 - 10:54.


#121 Tony Matthews

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 11:11

The full run:

I'm amzed something this reckless can still take place in the U.S.A. :up:

I watched - http://www.youtube.c...eature=youtu.be - earlier, thinking "What is going on? Nobody steers like that unless they are on a school run or have just passed their test." and wondering if he needed a quicker rack. Sebastian Loeb, on the other hand (!) no change of grip all the way up. Fantastic run!

Perhaps we need an Autosport BB Tech Forum Coach Trip to Pikes Peak...

Edited to add that someone else mentioned steering behaviour in an earlier post...

Edited by Tony Matthews, 02 July 2013 - 11:12.


#122 Kelpiecross

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 11:38


On the subject of Loeb's Peugeot versus a F1 car at PP - if you imagine the Peugeot lined up next to a F1 car on a typical road circuit - who do think would win? After the first 100 feet or so the F1 car would vanish into the distance never to be seen again. Even with the drop off of the F1's power with altitude and the allegedly bumpy surface (looks pretty smooth to me) it would still be much faster than the Peugeot.

Maybe Red Bull should send one of their F1 cars to PP next year?

#123 kikiturbo2

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 12:06

but PP is no typical road circuit..
Surely, the 208 T16 is not an ideal PP car, but an F1 car aint one either..

#124 Wuzak

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 12:18

I was thinking that the bottom section the F1 car would be comfortably ahead. But closer to the top where there are all the switchbacks I'm not so sure.

Also, how long would it take for a driver to feel comfortable taking some of those corners flat out in an F1 car and seeing only sky beyond?

#125 pugfan

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 12:43

On the subject of Loeb's Peugeot versus a F1 car at PP - if you imagine the Peugeot lined up next to a F1 car on a typical road circuit - who do think would win? After the first 100 feet or so the F1 car would vanish into the distance never to be seen again. Even with the drop off of the F1's power with altitude and the allegedly bumpy surface (looks pretty smooth to me) it would still be much faster than the Peugeot.

Maybe Red Bull should send one of their F1 cars to PP next year?


Certainly, on a typical smooth road circuit at sea level, the F1 would simply walk away from the 208 T16. With 4WD, the 208 T16 might be in the hunt for the first, say, 10 - 20 metres, particularly if it has some sort of traction control.

#126 RogerGraham

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 14:55

Sebastian Loeb, on the other hand (!) no change of grip all the way up. Fantastic run!


I'm no expert on such things, but watching Loeb it was interesting that there was virtually no use of opposite lock. Even coming out of the very tight hairpins, he seemed to just be able to pin it and be on his way, quickly centering the wheel, but no opposite lock. There must have a lot of grip to be doing that with 875hp?!

I'd love to see what difference the driver makes; how good would it be to see Loeb jump into each of the top 5 cars and see what times he could wring out of them!


#127 MatsNorway

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 15:17

Loebs car had only wheelspin once during hes run as i noticed. of a tight hairpin and that gave no slide so fairly soft diffs it seems. (not that i know anything about it) Or some traction system on each wheel.(not that i know anything about it)

I love how he seems to hit second gear before hes out of the hairpin. And not a single slide to be found either just smooth driving all the way.

I believe that Romain Dumas next year if he shows up, joins the 8 min club. (again assuming he got 5-600hp in that prototype)

I really believe in this type of vehicle, its the only type that can work without 4WD on pikes peak i believe.


Edited by MatsNorway, 02 July 2013 - 15:19.


#128 jpf

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 18:19

It seems to me that to really exploit the potential of an open rulebook, you have to look at running big underbody tunnels or maybe just a big front wing and rear diffuser — whichever is better suited to what I'd expect are the necessarily higher ride heights for a track this bumpy.

Will a LMP-derived chassis like the Norma have enough flexibility to accommodate tunnels or diffusers of this size? Maybe starting with an F1 or GP2 chassis designed around tighter packaging (and only one seat) would give the room you need.

Also, lots of downforce + bumpy tracks/tricky ride height issues sounds like a recipe for active suspension to me :)

#129 carlt

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 19:40

The full run:



What a sublime piece of driving !

wonderful to be able to ride [virtually] with such an artist

when you compare this with some of the other unlimited incar footage [where it is all on and off the power , wastegates chirping]

Loeb is so smooth- no fuss - when he lights up the tyres coming out the hairpin he just shifts up instantly, using the upshift to bring back traction

#130 GBarclay

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 19:50

GBarclay, I've tried to message you but get this "This message can not be sent because the recipient has their personal messenger disabled or they are in a member group not allowed to use the personal messenger."


Guess I am persona non grata as far as the PM system is concerned, not sure why never used it.

Sent you an email instead with my contact info

#131 GBarclay

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 20:02

On the subject of Loeb's Peugeot versus a F1 car at PP - if you imagine the Peugeot lined up next to a F1 car on a typical road circuit - who do think would win? After the first 100 feet or so the F1 car would vanish into the distance never to be seen again. Even with the drop off of the F1's power with altitude and the allegedly bumpy surface (looks pretty smooth to me) it would still be much faster than the Peugeot.

Maybe Red Bull should send one of their F1 cars to PP next year?


You would think but I believe you are wrong.

Apart from maybe a Funny Car or Top Fuel dragster, I have never seen anything so fast off the line. Definitely not an F1 car, that Peugeot is outstandingly fast on what is normal driving pavement, not a race circuit. Pikes Peak is a rolling start, a tradition dating back to the days of dirt, and they sure made the most of it.

A current F1 car would not be able to make a run up the mountain without drastic changes to suspension setup, likely out of the range the car was designed for. It's wheelbase is too long for the hairpins in the W's, and it is too low for the extreme camber changes through those corners. The W's are mostly 35 - 80 mph for most cars, a touch higher for Loeb, certainly not the performance zone of a F1 car. The bumps on the mountain were vicious, the one at Glen Cove seeing many cars with wheels in the air, the ones above Boulder Park even worse.

I like the direction that Dumas is heading, that may be a good choice for future events with maybe more power. Perhaps a mid-80's March Indy car with the very big tunnels, with a blown motor at the back, and soft spring rates, coupled with massive aero? But that is basically what Dallenbach drove in years before 2013.

#132 MatsNorway

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 21:52

I also think the Lovefab car for 2014 will be a great looking machine. Narrower driver compartment and better aero after a full year of testing. I think that could be something that many others would make something similar to.

The Phoenix as they called it i think actually has a too big a engine... But i haven`t seen much of it this year so i do not know what happened.

#133 canon1753

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 03:32

Convince Williams to slightly update the FW08D, with next years turbo engine...

Pagenaud wanted to bring his DW12. I think Honda said no... But Pikes Peak seems very hit (and lately more miss) on the weather. Seb had the best conditions. I think the 8.13 will stand for a long time.

#134 desmo

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 04:02

Guess I am persona non grata as far as the PM system is concerned, not sure why never used it.

Sent you an email instead with my contact info


Go to My Controls > Board Settings > Personal Messenger Options and where it says, "Disable your personal messenger?
If you disable your personal messenger, you will not be able to make or receive personal messages." change setting from Yes to No.

Cheers,
desmo, Tech forum mod

#135 gruntguru

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 05:36

I've assumed that the 208 has 875hp at the altitude it's designed for, which I don't think is an unreasonable assumption but I could be wrong.

The F1 certainly won't have 1153hp/tonne on Pikes peak though. At the top it'll be around 575hp/tonne.


At the top (4,300m) the NA F1 will be 40% down on power so only 691 hp/ton. As I have said before, grip is far more important than power/weight.

Edited by gruntguru, 03 July 2013 - 05:45.


#136 MatsNorway

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 17:54

At the top (4,300m) the NA F1 will be 40% down on power so only 691 hp/ton. As I have said before, grip is far more important than power/weight.


I thought it was 20%..

http://www.speedhunt...-of-pikes-peak/

#137 gruntguru

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 22:55

At the top you are 40% down on sea-level power.

20% might be the difference from the startline at 9,000 ft.

#138 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 23:41

What a sublime piece of driving !

wonderful to be able to ride [virtually] with such an artist

when you compare this with some of the other unlimited incar footage [where it is all on and off the power , wastegates chirping]

Loeb is so smooth- no fuss - when he lights up the tyres coming out the hairpin he just shifts up instantly, using the upshift to bring back traction

Seb must have felt lonely! As a rally driver he always has someone talking in his ear. A navigator might be very handy on that event to call the corners.
And yes Seb is a class act as a driver, That is why he has beaten the best so often.

#139 carlt

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 15:41

Seb must have felt lonely! As a rally driver he always has someone talking in his ear.


I did wonder if they had his co-driver in the chase chopper calling out the pace notes [would have helped him feel 'at home']

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#140 MatsNorway

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 16:30




There where a woman getting hit this year. Not sure if allready mentioned. She was sticking her legs out or something and got hit.

Edited by MatsNorway, 06 July 2013 - 16:42.


#141 Powersteer

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 01:48

I notice the Peugeot did not pop and bang a lot in an anti-lag sense, are they running something clever?

:cool:

#142 GBarclay

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 19:41

Go to My Controls > Board Settings > Personal Messenger Options and where it says, "Disable your personal messenger?
If you disable your personal messenger, you will not be able to make or receive personal messages." change setting from Yes to No.

Cheers,
desmo, Tech forum mod


much obliged Desmo, many thanks



#143 MatsNorway

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 20:51

Rhys Millen onboard.
http://www.youtube.c...TkneFqHy8#at=11

Seems like a nice and smooth run. Can`t say too much about the driving but it did not look aggressive. And it feelt like he gradually ramped up the pace in the start.

What i really would like to hear from you fine members of this forum is teories to why he did not drive the 2010 car or an evolution of it with 4WD and all. It was much more extreme in its design.
I am aware it probably had a bad balance but such things can be ironed out by design chances, settings, evolution.



Edited by MatsNorway, 08 July 2013 - 20:56.


#144 kikiturbo2

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 10:00

because it doesn't look like any hyundai.... and I am dead serious.. :)