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Vettel doing things against RBR wishes


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#101 mattferg

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 23:15

McLaren wasn't even in the hunt for the title last year as they threw an incredible number of points away. RBR had a very significant pace advantage over Ferrari that year; having been bamboozled by the tyres early on, from Monaco onwards there were no more problems in that regard and they were over half a second clear of Ferrari in qualifying more or less everywhere. In those circumstances, if I were Newey and I'd designed that car, I'd be looking at the race team and wanting to know why the Ferrari was still in the hunt with one race to go when it didn't have anything like winning pace.

Following team instructions "usually" is another way of saying he follows them when it suits him. And the Barcelona example is pretty weak when you consider that he couldn't have kept Kimi behind him if he tried. He followed the team's instruction as opposed to what - having a pointless accident?


Err, just because McLaren threw away points with mechanical issues and pit stops doesn't mean they can be suddenly removed from the equation and RB declared to have a pace advantage. In the first half of the year especially RB was definitely further back than at the end of the year too.

As for 'why Ferrari was still in the hunt' isn't it obvious? When McLaren weren't having problems they were winning, and Red Bull had reliability issues. Nothing whatsoever to do with race operations or Vettel. Vettel would've won the championship in Abu Dhabi without reliability issues.

Yet again RedReni RBR bias.

As for the 'listening to team vs having accident' argument, it's the same for FL, if you really believe Vettel is risking points by doing it... Which I don't.

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#102 STRFerrari4Ever

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 23:44

Also Vettel doing that fastest lap made the viewers realise how conservative the drivers were, when I saw it I thought what the actual f word. To go 2 seconds faster than they were lapping when the teams were being extremely paranoid made me slightly pissed off.

#103 karne

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 00:37

Also Vettel doing that fastest lap made the viewers realise how conservative the drivers were, when I saw it I thought what the actual f word. To go 2 seconds faster than they were lapping when the teams were being extremely paranoid made me slightly pissed off.


You might even have witnessed the only time ever I actually wanted Vettel to challenge for the win...

My primary concern in all of this is that it reminds me far too much of watching a toddler stick their tongue out at an adult, saying, "Nah nah nah nah, you're not the boss of me! You can't tell me what to do!"

#104 teejay

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 00:46

I hope he realises how much of a pillock he'll look if he does crash trying it one of these days.


Q3 does a pretty much flat 1.14

Race best lap, with a near empty car and obvious tyre life left - 2.5 seconds slower. I am sure he was out of control trying to go that slow.

#105 HP

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 00:47

Oh the need to analyze very move to death.... It is known that Vettel cares about stats. Even if others don't, for him it's important. That should be the end of it. Those guys are no robots and we should be thankful for it.

If I had my way i'd ban all Pit -> Car radio messages other than in safety emergencies.

Yup. It has gone beyond ridiculous. This from Force India

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/107731

Fernley added that he was impressed with Sutil's overtaking moves during the race and suggested that it was only teams warning drivers over the radio that he was attacking in the radio prevented him making up more places.



#106 solochamp07

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 04:05

When I'm drivin' in my car
And the man comes on the radio
He's tellin' me more and more
'bout some useless information
Supposed to reduce my degradation
I can't get no, oh no, no, no
Hey, hey, hey, that's what I say...

-apologies if this has been done already!


#107 Afterburner

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 04:11

When I'm drivin' in my car
And the man comes on the radio
He's tellin' me more and more
'bout some useless information
Supposed to reduce my degradation
I can't get no, oh no, no, no
Hey, hey, hey, that's what I say...

-apologies if this has been done already!

Absolutely awesome. :up: :rotfl:

#108 makroncommander

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 07:48

When I'm drivin' in my car
And the man comes on the radio
He's tellin' me more and more
'bout some useless information
Supposed to reduce my degradation
I can't get no, oh no, no, no
Hey, hey, hey, that's what I say...

-apologies if this has been done already!


Brilliant!! :lol:


#109 sanjiro

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 08:22

From someone who cant stand finger boy.

HE IS DOING WHAT THEY WANT.
the odd disagreement is normal, get over it

#110 RyanDixon

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 08:23

Vettel doing things against RBR wishes just smacks me as spoilt child. He can't win so he'll do something just to give him a shout out on TV. I know he's done it when he is winning but around Monaco when things can get wrong with a lock up meaning your out just seems a little too immature. However given that this not a team order such as Multi 21, we could all be twitching at nothing. However what I do have a gripe with is if his team don't do something, he instinctively does it. You've got to respect the teams wishes not to have the possibility of a car crashing out.

#111 mnmracer

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 08:58

Vettel doing things against RBR wishes just smacks me as spoilt child. He can't win so he'll do something just to give him a shout out on TV. I know he's done it when he is winning but around Monaco when things can get wrong with a lock up meaning your out just seems a little too immature. However given that this not a team order such as Multi 21, we could all be twitching at nothing. However what I do have a gripe with is if his team don't do something, he instinctively does it. You've got to respect the teams wishes not to have the possibility of a car crashing out.

If Seb was flipping burgers at McDonald's, sure, you listen to the guy signing your paycheck, but in Formula One, where it's just as much, if not more, about the driver as about the team, this 1920's hierarchy doesn't work. The best drivers on the grid deserve just as much respect from the team, as the team deserves from the drivers. Get with the times :-)

Edited by mnmracer, 29 May 2013 - 09:00.


#112 Kelateboy

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 10:08

....... That's why the margins by which they've won the last three titles have not reflected the very significant pace advantage they've had over the period. If they want to stay at the top they're going to have to address these problems.

Sorry, Redreni. While most of what you stated in your piece is quite valid and rational, this one is just plain wrong. McLaren was the fastest car last year.

Vettel was able to win last year due to his late season charge, similar to 2010. Coincidentally, their charge started in Singapore, where RBR introduced substantial upgrades, most notably the DDRS, new and revised front and rear wings, revised nose-cone, etc. Hamilton handed Vettel the win in that GP. In the next GP in Japan, FIA introduced a stricter front-wing test which hampered McLaren in the next 3 races - all won by Vettel. The final 3 races of the season were all McLaren again as they were able to regain the advantages lost with the stricter front-wing load test in Japan.

Give credit to RBR and Vettel in 2012. The loss of EBD affected Vettel tremendously in the 1st half of the season, but he persevered and even led the WDC standing after the 4th race in Bahrain. All these despite his run-in with Karthikeyan in Malaysia and his problems with the alternators in Valencia and Monza (twice).

#113 RyanDixon

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 10:17

If Seb was flipping burgers at McDonald's, sure, you listen to the guy signing your paycheck, but in Formula One, where it's just as much, if not more, about the driver as about the team, this 1920's hierarchy doesn't work. The best drivers on the grid deserve just as much respect from the team, as the team deserves from the drivers. Get with the times :-)


I am with the times but regardless if its a boss at McDonalds or a team boss you have to respect the people above you, even if you don't agree with it. No-one is as big as the team it's simple. Seb got nothing for setting the fastest lap other than a record that only he cares about. He risked crashing out and ruining the teams title charge and even his possibly for nothing.

#114 mnmracer

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 10:44

I am with the times but regardless if its a boss at McDonalds or a team boss you have to respect the people above you, even if you don't agree with it. No-one is as big as the team it's simple. Seb got nothing for setting the fastest lap other than a record that only he cares about. He risked crashing out and ruining the teams title charge and even his possibly for nothing.

But that's the problem: you keep seeing it as a boss and employee.
Top drivers in Formula One are driving for the team, as much as the team is making cars for the top drivers.
Horner and Vettel (like Domenicalli and Alonso, and Todt and Schumacher) are not boss and employee; they're business partners.

#115 Jon83

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 10:54

I wanted to post in the Vettel at Ferrari 2014 thread but it's closed...

Vettel once again blatantly flouted RBR's interests in favor of his own at Monaco. I think there is a good chance he will be glad he flouted the order to let Webber win unchallenged in MAL. I'm not so sure about the Monaco fastest lap.

Anyway, I think the Monaco fast lap against RBR's wishes was yet another sign that Vettel is off to Ferrari next season. I just think these things show his long-term interests at RBR may not be very long. Usually it's unwise to do things that your team doesn't like. Not so much when they will shortly be your ex-team.

I'm sure a lot of you will object to my read on these events. But I'm betting there's a good chance my prediction will turn out to be correct ;)


You are reading far too much into him setting a fast lap.

#116 MikeV1987

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 13:18

I am with the times but regardless if its a boss at McDonalds or a team boss you have to respect the people above you, even if you don't agree with it. No-one is as big as the team it's simple. Seb got nothing for setting the fastest lap other than a record that only he cares about. He risked crashing out and ruining the teams title charge and even his possibly for nothing.


I think anyone with any competitiveness in them at all would like to get at least a fastest lap or something, regardless of risk.

#117 OfficeLinebacker

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 14:08

I can totally get why Sebastian said it, and I laughed and pointed out to my GF and replayed it for her.

Having said that, it's a common occurrence in races.

There's an old saying in racing, that's is better to have a driver you have to reign in than a driver you have to exhort.

Vettel would be near the top of any team principal's wish list, I believe.

#118 drunkenmaster

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 14:42

Hahaha, love that. Is that Horner speaking to Vettel, or his race engineer Rocky?




I hope he realises how much of a pillock he'll look if he does crash trying it one of these days.

for driving fast?

You know that was the point of F1 in the past. He should know how to drive 100%.

Ahhhhh yes, driving as fast as possible... I have faint memories of it. That was how they did it in the old days of F1, wasn't it? Instead of driving deltas. Damn, what crazy times that were... :eek:


#119 Sakae

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 15:11

Can you imagine that some cook sitting by track-side would "teach" Alain Prost how to save his tires? We came long way baby, and now Monaco 2013! What a joke.

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#120 EthanM

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 15:14

Can you imagine that some cook sitting by track-side would "teach" Alain Prost how to save his tires? We came long way baby, and now Monaco 2013! What a joke.


to be fair, the problem in that isn't "the cook". The problem is that he has a stream of data from the car, 50 boffins trackside analyzing that data, and another 100 boffins back at the factory and a supercomputer finetuning the analysis. So the "cook" knows better than the driver what is happening with his tyres

#121 RyanDixon

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 15:21

I think anyone with any competitiveness in them at all would like to get at least a fastest lap or something, regardless of risk.


Yes but is it really worth the risk? If you gained points for doing so then yes, drive for the fastest lap. It just seems irresponsible to go against the teams best wishes for nothing. I see what you mean about the competitiveness but would you in a position of a team principle, allow one of your drivers to push and risk crashing out just for a fastest lap?

Saying all this however, why could he go that fast with a few laps going and why didn't he push this quick to jump Rosberg or keep up with him?

#122 EthanM

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 15:25

Yes but is it really worth the risk? If you gained points for doing so then yes, drive for the fastest lap. It just seems irresponsible to go against the teams best wishes for nothing. I see what you mean about the competitiveness but would you in a position of a team principle, allow one of your drivers to push and risk crashing out just for a fastest lap?

Saying all this however, why could he go that fast with a few laps going and why didn't he push this quick to jump Rosberg or keep up with him?


Because that's how Pirellis work. If you go too fast they are cooked. If you do that at the start of the stint you will need to stop for new tyres 5 laps later, if you do it at the end of the race you don't care. That's the same reason Chilton posted a lap faster than Alonso's fastest lap of the race ffs (on lap 78)

#123 Sakae

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 15:46

to be fair, the problem in that isn't "the cook". The problem is that he has a stream of data from the car, 50 boffins trackside analyzing that data, and another 100 boffins back at the factory and a supercomputer finetuning the analysis. So the "cook" knows better than the driver what is happening with his tyres

You are trying to convince wrong person, sorry. I reject notion that a computer simulation software has a tangible track feel as a driver has. It may have escaped to you, but increasingly we hear more and more voices in favor of track testing, as even the best simulators are not enough (as yet). It is merely a few who are looking on balance sheet, rather than what is right thing to do for the sport. Boffins, not cheap, mind you, in the final analysis, sitting trackside and dealing with probabilities only, regardless how many supercomputers they have at home base. A driver behind the wheel deals with real life conditions, feels the car beneath him, and nothing can replace that.

Edited by Sakae, 29 May 2013 - 15:48.


#124 EthanM

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 15:55

it has nothing to do with feel. Supercomputers and boffins understand temperature curves. They also read sensor output. If sensors say your tyres at x degrees and rising at y degrees per lap then can calculate the point at which the tyres will reach z degrees and burn out. And the fact they will burn out is back up by track testing.

#125 Sin

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 19:11

http://www.yallaf1.c...-lap-at-monaco/

#126 Winter98

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 03:36

The best driver on the grid showing what his car is capable of.

How is that bad?

#127 Kelateboy

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 07:23

Vettel would be near the top of any team principal's wish list, I believe.

That's a given.


#128 Gorma

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 07:37

Yes but is it really worth the risk?

Is there really a risk? How many times have we seen a driver DNF or lose a position due to trying a fastest lap?

#129 KirilVarbanov

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 07:39

I'm glad he did it, showing to everyone what an utter farce the "racing" has become. Pity they didn't allow his entire response to be aired.

Indeed, and showing that the track itself is not really worth. Most drivers were just waiting for the race to finish and move on to a real race track, evidenced by Mark Webber's post race conference.

#130 Molo19

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 08:12

The best driver on the grid showing what his car is capable of.

How is that bad?


I think you may have missed the point here.


#131 redreni

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 08:37

Is there really a risk? How many times have we seen a driver DNF or lose a position due to trying a fastest lap?


Off the top of my head, Hamilton, Monza 2011? Don‘t think it was confirmed he was trying for fastest lap but he was going very fast right at the end of the race when there was nothing to gain from it. That‘s only one case but it‘s enough to show there‘s a risk. Of course there is. If there was no risk all the drivers would do it rather than opt to stroke it home.

#132 krea

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 10:00

Is there really a risk? How many times have we seen a driver DNF or lose a position due to trying a fastest lap?


Well, when was the last time someone from the top people had a DNF in Q3 because of a mistake?

Driving fast laps (plural) is the job of a driver. Vettel wouldn't be F1 driver and drive for one of the best teams if he couldn't deliver fast laps.

#133 Gorma

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 10:22

Well, when was the last time someone from the top people had a DNF in Q3 because of a mistake?

Driving fast laps (plural) is the job of a driver. Vettel wouldn't be F1 driver and drive for one of the best teams if he couldn't deliver fast laps.

Exactly.

#134 Kelateboy

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 15:19

Off the top of my head, Hamilton, Monza 2011? Don‘t think it was confirmed he was trying for fastest lap but he was going very fast right at the end of the race when there was nothing to gain from it. That‘s only one case but it‘s enough to show there‘s a risk. Of course there is. If there was no risk all the drivers would do it rather than opt to stroke it home.

Hamilton finished 4th at Monza 2011. Perhaps you were thinking of different races?

#135 redreni

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 16:05

Hamilton finished 4th at Monza 2011. Perhaps you were thinking of different races?


Thanks Kelateboy you're right, I was thinking of 2009. Jeez, time flies, doesn't it?

I would also say the risk of suddenly pushing at Monaco is probably higher than anywhere else, particularly when you've already done 28 dog-slow laps since the restart, to suddenly go much quicker means you're not building up towards the limit in a progressive way like you ideally would, and is an unjustified risk if you can't gain something from it. If you want to take a risk it would have been better to start pushing less hard maybe 5 or 6 laps from home, get nice and close to Rosberg and then surprise him with a dive up the inside at Rascasse, or dive-bomb him at the chicane like Perez was doing to various people. The risk/reward ratio probably wasn't worth it given that, considering where Alonso and Kimi were, second was a great result anyway, but at least you would have some actual points on the "reward" side of the equation, rather than doing a very fast lap on worn tyres for no reward.

#136 Kelateboy

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 16:34

Thanks Kelateboy you're right, I was thinking of 2009. Jeez, time flies, doesn't it?

Technically, Lewis Hamilton did not DNF Monza 2009. He was officially classified in 12th position as he had completed 90% of the race distance. :)

#137 redreni

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 16:48

Technically, Lewis Hamilton did not DNF Monza 2009. He was officially classified in 12th position as he had completed 90% of the race distance. :)


That strikes me as a bit pedantic, to be honest, and coming from the world's worst pedant that's saying something! If Vettel had crashed out trying to get fastest lap at Monaco this year he wouldn't have technically DNF'd either. But I'm sure pointing that fact out to Rocky or Horner or Uncle Helmut wouldn't have done Seb any favours, or made up for the zero points.

#138 spacekid

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 16:56

Vettel's 'super hot crazy dangerous lap' was, what, 3 seconds off the pole time? That's hardly caning it round, is it?

He's a racing driver, he wants to enjoy himself. Good stuff, its entertaining for us too, everyone's a winner.

I actually quite now the way Red Bull scold Seb if he goes 'too fast', and he just does his thing anyway. They must know what the result will be.

#139 Kelateboy

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 17:13

That strikes me as a bit pedantic, to be honest, and coming from the world's worst pedant that's saying something! If Vettel had crashed out trying to get fastest lap at Monaco this year he wouldn't have technically DNF'd either. But I'm sure pointing that fact out to Rocky or Horner or Uncle Helmut wouldn't have done Seb any favours, or made up for the zero points.

Oh c'mon... I was just having a bit of fun on a late thursday night. Probably the same thing Vettel was thinking when he decided to go for that fastest lap on the penultimate lap.

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#140 sennafan

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 17:33

I think you may have missed the point here.


Yup the point is some Vettel bashers are realy desperate to bash Vettel.

#141 ThomFi

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 17:33

I thought, Red Bull is pure evil. And isn't going against the wishes of the devil a good thing ?
And yeah, he was driving a little bit less slow, big deal.


#142 apoka

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 19:28

Another point, which AFAIK hasn't been brought up yet, is that Vettel is a perfectionist. There are quite some indicators that he spends a lot of time optimising his lines and approach towards individual corners for which he feels he is not at the very limit yet. Imagine that you spend lots of time optimising the last tenth, simulating corner entries and exits, thinking about the track in detail etc. and are then forced to drive well below what you could do. That can be quite frustrating and, at least for one lap, you may want to get a little bit closer to the limit (not that I think he was really going flat out). Of course, that's also true for all other drivers, but maybe a bit more for Vettel due to being a perfectionist.


#143 Afterburner

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 21:32

I thought, Red Bull is pure evil. And isn't going against the wishes of the devil a good thing ?

I guess in the end he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. :p