79 replies to this topic

[sopa]

Some people mentioned Force India as the team of the year. I wouldn't vote for them, because they made a complete cock-up with the wheelnuts.

[TheThirdTenor1]

last year he was nearly flawless. but this year he isnt. he made mistakes costing him valuable points. other drivers were overall more consistent this year (vettel raikonnen). thats why they are, rightfully, voted better as alonso so far this season.
you made the poll, and you wrote "of the year so far", so it surprises me that you are the one talkin about his performances last year. they dont need to be considered in this poll. we dont forgot what he did, but it doesnt matter here.

Well tbf, he only really made 1 mistake (Malaysia) and he was unlucky that it ended up costing him so many points.

[Pingu Pi]

Vetted has been the best driver, he's at the top, and so far the standings don't lie.

RB9 has been probably equal best, it's changed between races but not fluxes too far between themselves, Lotus and Ferrari. That vote could go to either team.

RBR, got the the most out of their package, hence their standing. They are a massively efficient team let down only by a weak number 2.

[Headspin]

Well tbf, he only really made 1 mistake (Malaysia) and he was unlucky that it ended up costing him so many points.

Maybe only one (big) mistake but his performance hasn't been that stellar on many other races either. Even in Spain (i think) where in the race he drove like theres no tomorrow, he made a mistake in qualy costing some grid slots (could be that i'm mistaking about races here, in that case sorry...).

[gillesthegenius]

Well tbf, he only really made 1 mistake (Malaysia) and he was unlucky that it ended up costing him so many points.

I'm not too sure about that. He made atleast one more mistake at Monaco, while his final Q3 lap at Bahrain wasn't anywhere close to being mistake free. There is also room for argument that he lost the race to Raikkonen as a result if his eagerness to undercut Vettel in Australia. So two good races out of six isn't exactly something one can be proud of, unless its Grosjean we are talking about.

[TheThirdTenor1]

I'm not too sure about that. He made atleast one more mistake at Monaco, while his final Q3 lap at Bahrain wasn't anywhere close to being mistake free.

True, though if we are to use this reasoning, then surely we can say Vettel was not error free with his mistakes Monaco Q3 or his mistake when lapping the Caterham on the last lap of China. Same with Kimi when he tried to pass Perez in China (though this was more debatable).

There is also room for argument that he lost the race to Raikkonen as a result if his eagerness to undercut Vettel in Australia.

Not sure how you can argue that. In order to run the 3 stop race he wanted, he needed clean air and not to be running at the pace of a Force India.

So two good races out of six isn't exactly something one can be proud of, unless its Grosjean we are talking about.

Well he had 3 good races out of 6. 2 bad ones in Malaysia and Monaco. In Bahrain, he had the DRS problem.

[gillesthegenius]

True, though if we are to use this reasoning, then surely we can say Vettel was not error free with his mistakes Monaco Q3 or his mistake when lapping the Caterham on the last lap of China. Same with Kimi when he tried to pass Perez in China (though this was more debatable).



Not sure how you can argue that. In order to run the 3 stop race he wanted, he needed clean air and not to be running at the pace of a Force India.




Well he had 3 good races out of 6. 2 bad ones in Malaysia and Monaco. In Bahrain, he had the DRS problem.

1) I was talking about how he messed up his Q3 lap in Bahrain. If less than perfect laps are to be spoken about, then the two race in which Alonso got out qualified by Massa and even his Spain lap can be spoken about as being less than ideal in the same way Vettel's Monaco lap was.

2) The fact that he himself said that he could have beaten Kimi with a two stopper only makes me say that his three stopper may be argued to have been a less than ideal option for him. But it is debatable though.

3) That depends on how one looks at Australia. But still, 3/6 for driver of the season?

Edited by gillesthegenius, 30 May 2013 - 12:34.

[TheThirdTenor1]

1) I was talking about how he messed up his Q3 lap in Bahrain. If less than perfect laps are to be spoken about, then the two race in which Alonso got out qualified by Massa and even his Spain lap can be spoken about as being less than ideal in the same way Vettel's Monaco lap was.

And then we should include how Webber effectively beat Vettel in Malaysia.

2) The fact that he himself said that he could have beaten Kimi with a two stopper only makes me say that his three stopper may be argued to have been a less than ideal option for him. But it is debatable though.

Alonso and Pat Fry said they did not think they could do a 2 stopper.

3) That depends on how one looks at Australia. But still, 3/6 for driver of the season?

When did i say he was driver of the season?

[SpaMaster]

I echo the sentiments on Lotus being a team that extracted the most out of its car. I am not sure if this poll should be clouded by the second driver. We want to evaluate the team operation, and I base it on the most prestigious prize, WDC. We can't give too much weightage to a single second driver to take away the work done by the whole team. For that, we could probably have different poll for the best driver pairing. That would weed out the second-driver effect.

My choices:
1. Raikkonen, closely followed by Vettel
2. F138
3. Lotus, followed by Red Bull and Force India.

I agree that Force India should feature on both the car and the team polls. It's a massive oversight. in my opinion.

Edited by SpaMaster, 30 May 2013 - 15:35.

[Amin]

Vettel, closely followed by Raikkonen.

RB9

Lotus

[Kingshark]

I agree that Force India should feature on both the car and the team polls. It's a massive oversight. in my opinion.

Force India in the team poll? The pitwork has been embarrassing, and the team has thrown away lots of points, especially with Sutil.

They've had a good car but the team work hasn't been great tbh.

[SpaMaster]

Well, you agree that they should be there in at least one of the two polls!? They have done some good work on strategies, they always have. They have made some mistakes. But in my view, overall they have impressed me with their car design and track operations. They should definitely be acknowledged much more. They have more points than McLaren and we have McLaren on both the team polls!

[hupholland]

Rosberg best driver

Lotus most consistent, and I think they also got most out of their car, thanks to Pirelli

[Kyo]

Best Driver so far: Vettel
Best car: F138
Best Team: not sure. Between Lotus and RBR

[Forma1]

1) I was talking about how he messed up his Q3 lap in Bahrain. If less than perfect laps are to be spoken about, then the two race in which Alonso got out qualified by Massa and even his Spain lap can be spoken about as being less than ideal in the same way Vettel's Monaco lap was.

2) The fact that he himself said that he could have beaten Kimi with a two stopper only makes me say that his three stopper may be argued to have been a less than ideal option for him. But it is debatable though.

3) That depends on how one looks at Australia. But still, 3/6 for driver of the season?

You can't be that strcit with Fernando:
-he made only one single mistake: Malaysia
-did he mess up his last qualy lap in Bahrain? yes, but it was deliberatly so aggressive. He knew he got everything out of the car on his first outing, so he was ultra-aggressive on lap 2.
-in Australia: flawless, he made the best in qualy even if Ferrari clearly aren't that strong in the wet as they were last year, flawless race
-Malaysia: beautiful qualy, made a mistake in the race
-Bahrain: incredible pace on the harder compound in qualy, in the race he was jinxed with the DRS
-in China: he was BRUTAL, he knew he had to pass load of car because the tyres were meant to go away just after three laps, he was just staggering, stunning, for me that was the best drive of the whole year
-in Spain: he was brutal in qualy, made the best out of the qualy pace of the car, in the race he showed the BEST overtaking manouvers of the year coming out of turn 2 on Kimi and Lewis, after that he overtook Kimi, Vettel thousand times (okay, he was on fresher tyres, BUT just look at Kimi: he always hesitated, even on fresher tyres he couldn't find to way for a move on Vettel for millions laps), had a controlled race till the end
-in Monaco: Alonso was brutal on Thursday, on Sautrday onwards he couldn't deliver his times from Thursday, Gene said Ferrari messed up his setup, shame on the team, in the race he was low-keyed, didn't want to lose points due to a crash
-don't forget Alonso always starts the race with a big handicap, he always starts from the back of the front, has to make up ground because of the troublesome qualy pace of his Ferrari
-don't forget his starts, he knows he has to make up places at the starts and on the first lap, he is the master of that, absolute staggering performance
-don't forget: everyone is talking of the resurrection of Felipe, but he is nowhere near to Fernando, even in clean race like in Australia and Spain Masse was miilons seconds behind Fernando at the end of the race
-Alonso (and Kimi) are clearly the guys who can controll their tyres the best

Vettel:
-he was offthe pace in the Austrialian race, as you said about ALonso, we can say, Verttel wasn't stellar there
-he completely bitched the Malayisan race: he won only with backing out his team's interest and agreement
-in China he was noooooooowhere in qualy, couldn't find the pace, he needed to go for another startegy because of his lack of pace, in the race he was stuck behind the slowish Sauber's Nico, he couldn't find the ways to make the pass on him, after that he was mediocre, one of his worst race completed for RB
-in Bahrain he got everything out of cis car, staggering performance
-in Spain: he was okay in qualy, but he was struggling in the race, was completely out of the pace, couldn't make his tyres last
-in Monaco: he disclosed himself he cooked up his last lap, in the race he was sitting behind Rosberg, and lucked in with the safety car induced by Felipe, without it he never ever could have overtaken Mark (he was in front of him theoretically with his early stop) and Lewis, after that he was childish with his idiot fastest lap.

I was deliberately too strict with his just to highlight how easy it is to find mistakes even from side of the best.

[Shiroo]

You can't be that strcit with Fernando:
-he made only one single mistake: Malaysia
-did he mess up his last qualy lap in Bahrain? yes, but it was deliberatly so aggressive. He knew he got everything out of the car on his first outing, so he was ultra-aggressive on lap 2.
-in Australia: flawless, he made the best in qualy even if Ferrari clearly aren't that strong in the wet as they were last year, flawless race
-Malaysia: beautiful qualy, made a mistake in the race
-Bahrain: incredible pace on the harder compound in qualy, in the race he was jinxed with the DRS
-in China: he was BRUTAL, he knew he had to pass load of car because the tyres were meant to go away just after three laps, he was just staggering, stunning, for me that was the best drive of the whole year
-in Spain: he was brutal in qualy, made the best out of the qualy pace of the car, in the race he showed the BEST overtaking manouvers of the year coming out of turn 2 on Kimi and Lewis, after that he overtook Kimi, Vettel thousand times (okay, he was on fresher tyres, BUT just look at Kimi: he always hesitated, even on fresher tyres he couldn't find to way for a move on Vettel for millions laps), had a controlled race till the end
-in Monaco: Alonso was brutal on Thursday, on Sautrday onwards he couldn't deliver his times from Thursday, Gene said Ferrari messed up his setup, shame on the team, in the race he was low-keyed, didn't want to lose points due to a crash
-don't forget Alonso always starts the race with a big handicap, he always starts from the back of the front, has to make up ground because of the troublesome qualy pace of his Ferrari
-don't forget his starts, he knows he has to make up places at the starts and on the first lap, he is the master of that, absolute staggering performance
-don't forget: everyone is talking of the resurrection of Felipe, but he is nowhere near to Fernando, even in clean race like in Australia and Spain Masse was miilons seconds behind Fernando at the end of the race
-Alonso (and Kimi) are clearly the guys who can controll their tyres the best

Vettel:
-he was offthe pace in the Austrialian race, as you said about ALonso, we can say, Verttel wasn't stellar there
-he completely bitched the Malayisan race: he won only with backing out his team's interest and agreement
-in China he was noooooooowhere in qualy, couldn't find the pace, he needed to go for another startegy because of his lack of pace, in the race he was stuck behind the slowish Sauber's Nico, he couldn't find the ways to make the pass on him, after that he was mediocre, one of his worst race completed for RB
-in Bahrain he got everything out of cis car, staggering performance
-in Spain: he was okay in qualy, but he was struggling in the race, was completely out of the pace, couldn't make his tyres last
-in Monaco: he disclosed himself he cooked up his last lap, in the race he was sitting behind Rosberg, and lucked in with the safety car induced by Felipe, without it he never ever could have overtaken Mark (he was in front of him theoretically with his early stop) and Lewis, after that he was childish with his idiot fastest lap.

I was deliberately too strict with his just to highlight how easy it is to find mistakes even from side of the best.

Milions seconds? Then Fernando started at sunday and Massa at least 12 days later? Wow, why the heck Massa would start race 12 days later than Alonso?
On a bit more serious note: Fernando was bad at Monaco, made ******** mistake in Malaysia, he isn't performing so well as you said in quali. Actually he already few times ****ed up in quali. He make mistakes etc. still he has safe top 8 spot due to current top teams => 4.

In Australia: started ahead of Raikkonen, finished behind -> hardly "flawless race", his car was simply pretty good over there
In Malaysia: Stupid mistake, should simply pit change tyres on hard compound and keep going
In Bahrain: major **** up with reopening DRS. He knew it was ****ed up, yet he opened it once again to lose valuable time. Even with DRS broken he would finish then around 5th I believe if not that ****
In China: agree, he was brilliant over here in the race. yet he should be P2 in qualifications (as far as I can remember he made few mistakes on his quali lap, yet he still got 3rd), but he was really good in China in the race anyway.
In Spain: even he said that his overtake of Kimi and Lewis was a bit lucky. Lewis was simply slow in that corner and Kimi was behind him, he had good lane there and went just ahead. Still he had great race over there and quite dominant in the race.
In Monaco: Alonso was simply bad. Car wasnt the best, but last year he had way worse car, yet he performed great. This year he couldn't get a hold there.

The car is the most importnat if we talk about tyre management. If he would be in mercedes you would be talking right now how badly he sucks at tyre management.
Kimi starts from the back as well, what's the point?
His starts and Massa have more to do with the car I believe. They are good starters, but that Ferrari has brilliant start from the line and off.
Massa is a Massa, after accident he is average at most, and Fernando is top driver.

Fernando was decent this season, but if he would have 2012 form, where he could achieve with such POS car good results then he would be leading WDC easly atm.


About Vettel simply wow. We didn't watch the same races then. Vettel was good in China actually, his car didn't have pace over single lap, that's why they decided to go different strategy and it was good call.
in Spain, his car was average due to quite big tyre problems, team **** up with wanting to go 3 stop, runing half race like that, and then switch it to 4 anyway.
in Monaco, can't say anything about that, he could be P1 I believe in quali, but merc are strong. He beat Mark there, and we know that Mark is quite good in Monaco. He lucked with P2,.

Edited by Shiroo, 31 May 2013 - 08:48.

[TheThirdTenor1]

Vettel was good in China actually, his car didn't have pace over single lap, that's why they decided to go different strategy and it was good call.

It was not a good call. He spent the first stint stuck behind Hulkenberg.

[rasul]

@Forma1 Please, stop. Don't make it into yet another driver vs driver argument. Why is it so hard to accept that your favorite driver isn't the best driver of the year so far? Arguing that Alonso is the best this season is ridiculous. He's not exactly bad, but he's nowhere as good as Vettel and Kimi at maximizing his car's potential.

I posted this in the other thread:

Thanks for the effort!

It is interesting that last year, after Monaco GP, Alonso and Hamilton had pretty much the same amount of points as this year. Vettel and Kimi(and Massa) have much more points than they had last year.
Last year:
1. Alonso - 76 points
2. Vettel - 73
3. Webber - 73
4. Hamilton - 63
5. Rosberg - 59
6. Kimi - 51
....
8. Grosjean - 35
14. Massa - 10

This year:
1. Vettel - 107 (+34)
2. Kimi - 86 (+35)
3. Alonso - 78 (+2)
4. Hamilton - 62 (-1)
5. Webber - 57 (-16)
6. Rosberg - 47 (-12)
7. Massa - 45 (+35)
.....
9. Grosjean - 26 (-9)

Hopefully both the team and Alonso would start maximizing the potential of the car. As James Allen said, the car is good but they aren’t profiting from it enough.

Edited by rasul, 31 May 2013 - 09:24.

[noikeee]

Everyone, don't forget we have a very limited sample so far, it's been what, 6 races? Of course Alonso is a great driver but if he's made 1 mistake in 6 races, that's more than 0 mistakes in 6 races so if someone else made 0 mistakes and have not been down on pace, they've been better. When a sample is so small, small things make big differences. Over the course of a season, chances are it'll even itself out.

[Forma1]

Everyone, don't forget we have a very limited sample so far, it's been what, 6 races? Of course Alonso is a great driver but if he's made 1 mistake in 6 races, that's more than 0 mistakes in 6 races so if someone else made 0 mistakes and have not been down on pace, they've been better. When a sample is so small, small things make big differences. Over the course of a season, chances are it'll even itself out.

You are completely right, but you can measure performance time to time. On the other hand, I can't agree with the view Vettel didn't have downs. As mentioned and explaind above, he was really off the pace in Australia, Spain and China, especially in China he was nowhere (I am using the same kind of harshness as some people use against Fernando). Under harshness I mean how you define mistakes or being off the pace.

[sopa]

You are completely right, but you can measure performance time to time. On the other hand, I can't agree with the view Vettel didn't have downs. As mentioned and explaind above, he was really off the pace in Australia, Spain and China, especially in China he was nowhere (I am using the same kind of harshness as some people use against Fernando). Under harshness I mean how you define mistakes or being off the pace.

Then it can be argued everyone is off the pace. Just the question is who is more and who is less.

Just an example. Vettel "seemed" off the pace in Australia, yet there is little arguing that RBR wasn't good on tyres in Australia. Despite that Vettel beat Massa, who had a better tyre management car. Both Lotus and Ferrari had better tyre management, so Kimi and Fernando finished ahead. Even if Seb was "off pace" it was still a good drive. Compared to others, who must have been off the pace too. After all Kimi said after his Australia win that he wasn't even trying hard - the car was that good and gentle on its tyres it came easy.

Rosberg seemed massively off the pace in Spain. Put putting things in context it maybe was the drive of the day. Rosberg seemed "off pace" plenty of times in 2011-12. Many at the time said it was his average race pace. But in context maybe they were excellent drives by seeing how the car performs.

Edited by sopa, 31 May 2013 - 11:33.

[Forma1]

Then it can be argued everyone is off the pace. Just the question is who is more and who is less.

Just an example. Vettel "seemed" off the pace in Australia, yet there is little arguing that RBR wasn't good on tyres in Australia. Despite that Vettel beat Massa, who had a better tyre management car. Both Lotus and Ferrari had better tyre management, so Kimi and Fernando finished ahead. Even if Seb was "off pace" it was still a good drive. Compared to others, who must have been off the pace too. After all Kimi said after his Australia win that he wasn't even trying hard - the car was that good and gentle on its tyres it came easy.

Rosberg seemed massively off the pace in Spain. Put putting things in context it maybe was the drive of the day. Rosberg seemed "off pace" plenty of times in 2011-12. Many at the time said it was his average race pace. But in context maybe they were excellent drives by seeing how the car performs.

Yes, hit the nail on its head. I repeat myself, I was so harsh on Vettel because others were so harsh on Fernando, I just wanted to highlight how easy it is to find mistakes.

My topic is very subjective. I still think Fernando was not just flawless, but impeccable and superb in Australia, Bahrain, China and Spain. In Malaysia he wanted to much, in Monaco his car wasn't properly set-up. Vettel was fantastic in Bahrain, mediocre in Monaco and Spain and utterly weak in China. Kimi was very strong in most of the races, lacked pace in Bahrain's qualy (compared to his previous practices), couldn"t overtake Lewis in China and messed up the overtaking on Checo (The Mexican wasn't completely faultless at that manouvere either), couldn't overtake Vettel in Spain and wasn't that impressive in Monaco either. So I think they are all on the very same level or have been so far, but I wouldn't forget about Lewis and Rosberg either.For me, Lewis is anouther question mark, everyone questions his pace, but he is very strong as well, his only bad performance was the one in Spain's race.

So that's why I can't really see why Fernando is lying so much off Fernando and Kimi in the poll.

[st99]

I still think Fernando was not just flawless, but impeccable and superb in Australia, Bahrain, China and Spain. In Malaysia he wanted to much, in Monaco his car wasn't properly set-up. Vettel was fantastic in Bahrain, mediocre in Monaco and Spain and utterly weak in China.

So in Alonso's case his average Monaco race was the set-up's fault but in Vettel's case he was mediocre and weak...

And saying that Alonso was superb in Australia... He was outqualified by Massa and could overtake him on the first stint which ended his chances of victory, for me that's not superb, he had a good race but not impeccable as you call it.

I voted for Vettel because in my opinion he has been taking the most out of his car posibilities, winning when it is the fastest and staying close when it's out of the pace, more or less what Alonso did last year (with a better car of course).

Edited by st99, 31 May 2013 - 13:50.

[TheThirdTenor1]

He was outqualified by Massa and could overtake him on the first stint which ended his chances of victory, for me that's not superb.

Only outqualified due to a faulty DRS.

He could not overtake him in the first stint because it was very difficult to overtake in Albert Park (just look at how Vettel could not clear Sutil) and also because both Massa was getting DRS from Vettel.

[st99]

Only outqualified due to a faulty DRS.

He could not overtake him in the first stint because it was very difficult to overtake in Albert Park (just look at how Vettel could not clear Sutil) and also because both Massa was getting DRS from Vettel.

I didn't know of the faulty DRS. But even then I still don't think that was a superb race, at least in my opinion, a superb race was in China or Spain...

Edited by st99, 31 May 2013 - 13:52.

[Jimisgod]

I only think of Kimi when I think lotus... Kimi is the whole team.

Grosjean oh boy. Ouch.

Force India has both drivers firing. A 4th and 5th.

[TheThirdTenor1]

Only outqualified due to a faulty DRS.

He could not overtake him in the first stint because it was very difficult to overtake in Albert Park (just look at how Vettel could not clear Sutil) and also because both Massa was getting DRS from Vettel.

Not superb (i'll reserve that for races like Valencia last year). However, he did not do much wrong. He made a good start, passed Hamilton around the outside of turn 3 on lap 1, followed Vettel and Massa for the first 2 stints, put in a good enough outlap to pass Vettel, Massa and Sutil at the 2nd round of stops. The only way he could have won is if he had clean air in the first 2 stints. This could only happen if he started from the front row, ut i don't think the Ferrari was capable of qualifying that high.

[apoka]

Vettel / F138 / Red Bull

For the third option, I was actually thinking about selecting Merc. They have gone backwards in the races, but I still feel they have done very good considering their race pace. They also have two strong drivers (which is why Lotus and lately Ferrari was not an option for me there). But then again, you could argue that there may have been ways for them to handle the tyres better setup-wise (which I cannot really judge).

[ViMaMo]

Vettel, RB9.

[paulogman]

the tyres situation is over shadowing everything at the moment.
that being said I am most impressed with Adrian Sutil.
the other drivers are basically spending too much time bitching about everything to be impressive.
It all seems that iit is down to luck at the front, completely nothing to do with skill.
if the car handles the tyres best on the day then the driver in it who is in front of his team mate will will.

I think the best car is still the red bull
but lotus and ferrari have done a better job managing the tyres
so vettel should win the title by finishing close enough behind which ever car profits from the tyre lottery.

if there is a midseason test allowed to counteract the mercedes test, all bets are off and vettel will walk it in the red bull.
all this being said I am pulling for Alonso
and also williams to some how get this thing right and get back on track for once and for all.

Edited by paulogman, 03 June 2013 - 03:34.