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It's Schumacher not Rosberg we need to reappraise


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#1 aliasj

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 08:22

I bought the Autosport premium subscription just in order to read this article by Jonathan Noble. I am of course, not going to copy paste the entire article here, but am going to reference the following sentences in there.

[Mercedes say that] "They say Rosberg is unchanged; he has always been this good."
"Rewind back 12 months, and the qualifying pattern between Schumacher and Rosberg was just as tight as it has been this year between Hamilton and Rosberg."
"If you dig deeper into the qualifying gap, then it shows that on average Rosberg was both times marginally behind his team-mate."
"It's not too hard to extrapolate from this data that Schumacher was every bit as quick as Rosberg over a single lap; and that Rosberg is proving just as quick as Hamilton, who we know is very quick."


The above are words from Jonathan Noble. Now below is the data of Schumacher vs Rosberg that I have posted before. Please have a look.

2012.

Schumacher was quicker than Rosberg in 2012. Qualifying 10/10 equal, but fastest laps in race Schumacher had more of them. Rosberg scored more points because Schumacher had more retirements. Schumacher made 2 unforced errors in races (Spain, Singapore), Rosberg made 3 unforced errors in qualifying. However, Schumacher had more fastest laps in the race, but didn't finish them mostly due to circumstances out of his control (besides ESP and SIN). Therefore .......

Overall faster driver: Schumacher

AUS. MSC +0.3 ROS (Q)
MAL. MSC +0.3 ROS (Q)
CHN. ROS +0.5 MSC (Q)
BHR. ROS +0.1 MSC (RACE)
ESP. ROS +0.1 MSC (Q)
MON. MSC +0.2 ROS (Q)
CAN. ROS +0.1 MSC (Q)
EUR. ROS +0.2 MSC (Q)
GBR. MSC +3.0 ROS (Q) (WET) MSC +0.6 ROS (RACE)
GER. MSC +2.5 ROS (Q) (WET) MSC +0.4 ROS (RACE)
HUN. ROS +0.9 MSC (Q)
BEL. MSC +1.1 ROS (Q)
ITA. MSC +0.3 ROS (Q)
SIN. MSC +0.1 ROS (Q)
JAP. MSC +0.2 ROS (Q)
KOR. ROS +0.2 MSC (Q)
IND. ROS +0.5 MSC (Q)
ABU. ROS +0.6 MSC (Q)
USA. MSC +1.5 ROS (Q)
BRA. ROS +0.5 MSC (Q)

2011.

This was the year when BOTH Mercedes did terrible. They struggled to get into Q3, they struggled to get into points. They had severe rear tire wear. However, Rosberg was able to extract more RAW pace from the car. However, despite being out-qualified by Rosberg, Schumacher often fared better in races, often outsmarting Rosberg on pitstops, strategy, etc. Highlight was in Belgium, where Schumacher drove from last place to 5th, overtaking Rosberg as well. And of course Canada in the wet, where Schumacher was leading until he was overtook by DRS by faster cars.

Overall faster driver: Rosberg

AUS. ROS +0.3 MSC (Q) (GEARBOX)
MAL. ROS +0.5 MSC (Q) MSC 9TH ROS 12TH
CHN. ROS +1.0 MSC (Q)
TUR. ROS +1.5 MSC (Q)
ESP. ROS +0.5 MSC (Q) MSC 7TH ROS 8TH
MON. MSC +0.1 ROS (Q) (FIRE)
CAN. ROS +0.02 MSC (Q) MSC 4TH ROS 11TH
EUR. ROS +0.01 MSC (Q) (PENALTY)
GBR. ROS +0.4 MSC (Q)
GER. ROS +0.9 MSC (Q)
HUN. ROS +0.9 MSC (Q) (GEARBOX)
BEL. ROS +NOTIME MSC (Q) MSC 5TH ROS 6TH
ITA. MSC +0.5 ROS (Q)
SIN. ROS +0.03 MSC (Q) (CRASH)
JAP. MSC +NOTIME ROS (Q)
KOR. ROS +0.4 MSC (Q) (CRASH)
IND. ROS +0.8 MSC (Q) MSC 5TH ROS 6TH
ABD. ROS +0.9 MSC (Q)
BRA. ROS +1.0 MSC (Q)

2010.

If you look at the stats alone, you won't get the whole picture for this year. I have been watching all practice sessions, all test sessions, every year, and always kept a very close look at the times of each drivers, comparing the stints they were on, fuel loads, etc. Apart from China, Bahrain, Europe and Hungary where Rosberg was faster than Schumacher in all sessions, the rest of the year, both of them were VERY, VERY, VERY close, often in 0.0XXs. This was the trend in practice sessions, qualifying, race. Wherever in qualifying that Rosberg might beat Schumacher by a couple of tenths, it was mostly due to some circumstances or the other, for instance traffic, mistake, etc. But raw speed, both were very evenly matched. In the races, Schumacher made a lot, lot more unforced errors, for instance in Turkey, Canada. but one could say it was due to race craft rustiness. But Schumacher also had highlights, such as his move on Alonso at Monaco on final lap.

Overall faster driver: Equal

As I said, even though below some of the qualifying shows Rosberg beat Schumacher by couple of tenths, but in the practice sessions of those races (apart from China, Bahrain and Hungary), Schumacher/Rosberg were inseparable. Therefore in terms of raw pace, I must say they were about equal.

BHR. ROS +0.3 MSC (Q)
AUS. ROS +0.01 MSC (Q)
MAL. ROS +1.0 MSC (Q) (WET)
CHN. ROS +0.6 MSC (Q)
ESP. MSC +0.2 ROS (Q)
MON. ROS +0.05 MSC (Q)
TUR. MSC +0.1 ROS (Q)
CAN. ROS +0.5 MSC (Q)
EUR. ROS +0.7 MSC (Q)
GBR. ROS +0.6 MSC (Q)
GER. ROS +0.01 MSC
HUN. ROS +0.6 MSC (Q)
BEL. MSC +0.01 ROS
ITA. ROS +0.3 MSC (Q)
SIN. ROS +0.3 MSC (Q)
JAP. ROS +0.3 MSC (Q)
KOR. ROS +0.4 MSC (Q)
BRA. MSC +0.5 ROS (Q) (WET)
ABU. MSC +0.07 ROS (Q)

Hereby,

If you go on stats alone 2010-2013 and Button had better stats than Hamilton, but that does not tell the whole story. Remember, Hamilton spent so many races crashing with Massa? He might have had better stats than Button if not of that. Another humble example I give you of Prost VS Senna in 1989. Senna was much faster than Prost (in qualifying 14-2), and really a faster driver. Nonetheless, Prost won the World Championship that year, therefore sometimes the raw stats alone don't tell the whole story of who was the faster driver / better driver, etc. So, lets trust Ross Brawn and the engineers at Merc. They must have had access to raw data, telemetry, etc., and known Schumacher's real pace. Ross Brawn said, Nico Rosberg was mostly faster at the slow, 2nd gear, twisting, technical tilke corners, whereas Schumacher was faster on the fast, very fast corners, old-fashioned tracks, street circuits. Also, Schumacher scores BONUS points for being much nicer and down-to-earth, likable guy in this 2nd career.

So, I rest my case. It's Schumacher not Rosberg we need to reappraise. Are we still allowed to take his age (42 years old) into account? And the fact that he was not in his prime? So for him to have matched Rosberg's pace on many occasions during his comeback, can we then say that Schumacher in this prime years would have been -- out of this world?

PS* The above times are from F1 official website. I would have posted detailed practice session times too, maybe as follow-up some later time.

Edited by aliasj, 30 May 2013 - 08:23.


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#2 Sakae

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 08:33

I bought the Autosport premium subscription just in order to read this article by Jonathan Noble. I am of course, not going to copy paste the entire article here, but am going to reference the following sentences in there.

[Mercedes say that] "They say Rosberg is unchanged; he has always been this good."
"Rewind back 12 months, and the qualifying pattern between Schumacher and Rosberg was just as tight as it has been this year between Hamilton and Rosberg."
"If you dig deeper into the qualifying gap, then it shows that on average Rosberg was both times marginally behind his team-mate."
"It's not too hard to extrapolate from this data that Schumacher was every bit as quick as Rosberg over a single lap; and that Rosberg is proving just as quick as Hamilton, who we know is very quick."


The above are words from Jonathan Noble. Now below is the data of Schumacher vs Rosberg that I have posted before. Please have a look.

2012.

Schumacher was quicker than Rosberg in 2012. Qualifying 10/10 equal, but fastest laps in race Schumacher had more of them. Rosberg scored more points because Schumacher had more retirements. Schumacher made 2 unforced errors in races (Spain, Singapore), Rosberg made 3 unforced errors in qualifying. However, Schumacher had more fastest laps in the race, but didn't finish them mostly due to circumstances out of his control (besides ESP and SIN). Therefore .......

Overall faster driver: Schumacher

AUS. MSC +0.3 ROS (Q)
MAL. MSC +0.3 ROS (Q)
CHN. ROS +0.5 MSC (Q)
BHR. ROS +0.1 MSC (RACE)
ESP. ROS +0.1 MSC (Q)
MON. MSC +0.2 ROS (Q)
CAN. ROS +0.1 MSC (Q)
EUR. ROS +0.2 MSC (Q)
GBR. MSC +3.0 ROS (Q) (WET) MSC +0.6 ROS (RACE)
GER. MSC +2.5 ROS (Q) (WET) MSC +0.4 ROS (RACE)
HUN. ROS +0.9 MSC (Q)
BEL. MSC +1.1 ROS (Q)
ITA. MSC +0.3 ROS (Q)
SIN. MSC +0.1 ROS (Q)
JAP. MSC +0.2 ROS (Q)
KOR. ROS +0.2 MSC (Q)
IND. ROS +0.5 MSC (Q)
ABU. ROS +0.6 MSC (Q)
USA. MSC +1.5 ROS (Q)
BRA. ROS +0.5 MSC (Q)

2011.

This was the year when BOTH Mercedes did terrible. They struggled to get into Q3, they struggled to get into points. They had severe rear tire wear. However, Rosberg was able to extract more RAW pace from the car. However, despite being out-qualified by Rosberg, Schumacher often fared better in races, often outsmarting Rosberg on pitstops, strategy, etc. Highlight was in Belgium, where Schumacher drove from last place to 5th, overtaking Rosberg as well. And of course Canada in the wet, where Schumacher was leading until he was overtook by DRS by faster cars.

Overall faster driver: Rosberg

AUS. ROS +0.3 MSC (Q) (GEARBOX)
MAL. ROS +0.5 MSC (Q) MSC 9TH ROS 12TH
CHN. ROS +1.0 MSC (Q)
TUR. ROS +1.5 MSC (Q)
ESP. ROS +0.5 MSC (Q) MSC 7TH ROS 8TH
MON. MSC +0.1 ROS (Q) (FIRE)
CAN. ROS +0.02 MSC (Q) MSC 4TH ROS 11TH
EUR. ROS +0.01 MSC (Q) (PENALTY)
GBR. ROS +0.4 MSC (Q)
GER. ROS +0.9 MSC (Q)
HUN. ROS +0.9 MSC (Q) (GEARBOX)
BEL. ROS +NOTIME MSC (Q) MSC 5TH ROS 6TH
ITA. MSC +0.5 ROS (Q)
SIN. ROS +0.03 MSC (Q) (CRASH)
JAP. MSC +NOTIME ROS (Q)
KOR. ROS +0.4 MSC (Q) (CRASH)
IND. ROS +0.8 MSC (Q) MSC 5TH ROS 6TH
ABD. ROS +0.9 MSC (Q)
BRA. ROS +1.0 MSC (Q)

2010.

If you look at the stats alone, you won't get the whole picture for this year. I have been watching all practice sessions, all test sessions, every year, and always kept a very close look at the times of each drivers, comparing the stints they were on, fuel loads, etc. Apart from China, Bahrain, Europe and Hungary where Rosberg was faster than Schumacher in all sessions, the rest of the year, both of them were VERY, VERY, VERY close, often in 0.0XXs. This was the trend in practice sessions, qualifying, race. Wherever in qualifying that Rosberg might beat Schumacher by a couple of tenths, it was mostly due to some circumstances or the other, for instance traffic, mistake, etc. But raw speed, both were very evenly matched. In the races, Schumacher made a lot, lot more unforced errors, for instance in Turkey, Canada. but one could say it was due to race craft rustiness. But Schumacher also had highlights, such as his move on Alonso at Monaco on final lap.

Overall faster driver: Equal

As I said, even though below some of the qualifying shows Rosberg beat Schumacher by couple of tenths, but in the practice sessions of those races (apart from China, Bahrain and Hungary), Schumacher/Rosberg were inseparable. Therefore in terms of raw pace, I must say they were about equal.

BHR. ROS +0.3 MSC (Q)
AUS. ROS +0.01 MSC (Q)
MAL. ROS +1.0 MSC (Q) (WET)
CHN. ROS +0.6 MSC (Q)
ESP. MSC +0.2 ROS (Q)
MON. ROS +0.05 MSC (Q)
TUR. MSC +0.1 ROS (Q)
CAN. ROS +0.5 MSC (Q)
EUR. ROS +0.7 MSC (Q)
GBR. ROS +0.6 MSC (Q)
GER. ROS +0.01 MSC
HUN. ROS +0.6 MSC (Q)
BEL. MSC +0.01 ROS
ITA. ROS +0.3 MSC (Q)
SIN. ROS +0.3 MSC (Q)
JAP. ROS +0.3 MSC (Q)
KOR. ROS +0.4 MSC (Q)
BRA. MSC +0.5 ROS (Q) (WET)
ABU. MSC +0.07 ROS (Q)

Hereby,

If you go on stats alone 2010-2013 and Button had better stats than Hamilton, but that does not tell the whole story. Remember, Hamilton spent so many races crashing with Massa? He might have had better stats than Button if not of that. Another humble example I give you of Prost VS Senna in 1989. Senna was much faster than Prost (in qualifying 14-2), and really a faster driver. Nonetheless, Prost won the World Championship that year, therefore sometimes the raw stats alone don't tell the whole story of who was the faster driver / better driver, etc. So, lets trust Ross Brawn and the engineers at Merc. They must have had access to raw data, telemetry, etc., and known Schumacher's real pace. Ross Brawn said, Nico Rosberg was mostly faster at the slow, 2nd gear, twisting, technical tilke corners, whereas Schumacher was faster on the fast, very fast corners, old-fashioned tracks, street circuits. Also, Schumacher scores BONUS points for being much nicer and down-to-earth, likable guy in this 2nd career.

So, I rest my case. It's Schumacher not Rosberg we need to reappraise. Are we still allowed to take his age (42 years old) into account? And the fact that he was not in his prime? So for him to have matched Rosberg's pace on many occasions during his comeback, can we then say that Schumacher in this prime years would have been -- out of this world?

PS* The above times are from F1 official website. I would have posted detailed practice session times too, maybe as follow-up some later time.

Reappraisal?

Casual fan misled by media campaigns - maybe.

Media - who cares, very little credibility for years. (IMO).

Steady fans - never in doubt, all personal bias notwithstanding. Equipment (mainly simulator), and different rules and culture in terms of driving style of course did not help, but substance of a racer never vapor, and Schumacher was - well - Schumacher. Legend in our time, take it or leave it. I take it.

Edited by Sakae, 30 May 2013 - 08:33.


#3 Shiroo

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 08:33

could you also link how much points each of these drivers had and on what position they finished the races?

#4 Goron3

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 08:34

Schumacher and Rosberg were pretty even in 2011 but Michael had a couple of retirements due to unreliability. 2012 Schumacher was absolutely on it and despite a couple of silly incidents like Spain and Singapore (most drivers had more than 2 incidents by hey ho), he was incredibly quick. It's a shame he had car failures in so many races, particularly early on when the car was strong (Australia, China, Bahrain, and he was tagged by Grosjean in Malaysia whilst in the top 3). His team were also slow to react in strategy too; he could've had a podium at Spa last year but they switched him to a 2 stopper too late and by then he lost 7th gear (he was second after 10 laps!!!!).

It really was a shame to watch him out-qualify faster cars last year and then to watch him go backwards in the race. He produced some stunning laps in the wet qualifying sessions we had at Silverstone and Germany but the car just wasn't up to it. At COTA he was mighty too and made most people jump out of their seats with that lap...stunning.



#5 aliasj

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 08:36

Schumacher and Rosberg were pretty even in 2011 but Michael had a couple of retirements due to unreliability. 2012 Schumacher was absolutely on it and despite a couple of silly incidents like Spain and Singapore (most drivers had more than 2 incidents by hey ho), he was incredibly quick. It's a shame he had car failures in so many races, particularly early on when the car was strong (Australia, China, Bahrain, and he was tagged by Grosjean in Malaysia whilst in the top 3). His team were also slow to react in strategy too; he could've had a podium at Spa last year but they switched him to a 2 stopper too late and by then he lost 7th gear (he was second after 10 laps!!!!).

It really was a shame to watch him out-qualify faster cars last year and then to watch him go backwards in the race. He produced some stunning laps in the wet qualifying sessions we had at Silverstone and Germany but the car just wasn't up to it. At COTA he was mighty too and made most people jump out of their seats with that lap...stunning.


Where is COTA?

#6 Lelouch

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 08:37

Where is COTA?

Austin

#7 aliasj

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 08:39

could you also link how much points each of these drivers had and on what position they finished the races?


Rosberg outscored Schumacher in all three seasons. But so did Button over Hamilton on 2011. and 36 pts gap in 2010, 2 points gap in 2012.

Edited by aliasj, 30 May 2013 - 08:42.


#8 Lelouch

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 08:39

By the way aliasj thanks for writing down all this :-)

#9 aliasj

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 08:42

By the way aliasj thanks for writing down all this :-)


You're welcome mate! :)

#10 fed up

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 08:59

Are we still allowed to take his age (42 years old) into account? And the fact that he was not in his prime? So for him to have matched Rosberg's pace on many occasions during his comeback, can we then say that Schumacher in this prime years would have been -- out of this world?

PS* The above times are from F1 official website. I would have posted detailed practice session times too, maybe as follow-up some later time.


You bet! :cat:

#11 Kobasmashi

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 09:23

OP, I think your argument if anything starts to lose credibility when you post a mass of excuses for Schuey in the 2010 and 2011 seasons and then none for Rosberg. I think Schumi only fully got up to speed in 2012, when, I think it's quite obvious, that he would have outscored Nico had the early season reliability not been awful. I think in 2010/11 he was still very rusty, there's no need to feel like you have to bail him out by being incredibly biased in your recollections of those seasons :wave: I've been saying for a little while since Rosberg is so close to Lewis that we'd underestimated Schumi's performances, particularly last year's

#12 EthanM

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 09:27

You can't "underestimate" a freakin legend. Any way you slice it Schumacher version 2 was not as good as 2002 Schumacher. That's not to say he was a useless geriatric taking up space in F1, far from it. He got blamed for a number of things (going backwards in the races for example) that now people understand are about Pirelli not the driver.

#13 Sakae

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 09:29

OP, I think your argument if anything starts to lose credibility when you post a mass of excuses for Schuey in the 2010 and 2011 seasons and then none for Rosberg. I think Schumi only fully got up to speed in 2012, when, I think it's quite obvious, that he would have outscored Nico had the early season reliability not been awful. I think in 2010/11 he was still very rusty, there's no need to feel like you have to bail him out by being incredibly biased in your recollections of those seasons :wave: I've been saying for a little while since Rosberg is so close to Lewis that we'd underestimated Schumi's performances, particularly last year's

...or overestimated Hamilton, and now we see him in different light. Argument is not very straightforward.

#14 aliasj

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 09:30

OP, I think your argument if anything starts to lose credibility when you post a mass of excuses for Schuey in the 2010 and 2011 seasons and then none for Rosberg. I think Schumi only fully got up to speed in 2012, when, I think it's quite obvious, that he would have outscored Nico had the early season reliability not been awful. I think in 2010/11 he was still very rusty, there's no need to feel like you have to bail him out by being incredibly biased in your recollections of those seasons :wave: I've been saying for a little while since Rosberg is so close to Lewis that we'd underestimated Schumi's performances, particularly last year's


Well not excuses, that's what happened, 2010, 2011. Besides, I said Rosberg was faster in 2011, I said that, didn't I? :) On raw speed they were moreorless equal in 2010. Not statistically, but laptimes.

Edited by aliasj, 30 May 2013 - 09:33.


#15 Jazza

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 09:32

So, I rest my case. It's Schumacher not Rosberg we need to reappraise. Are we still allowed to take his age (42 years old) into account? And the fact that he was not in his prime? So for him to have matched Rosberg's pace on many occasions during his comeback, can we then say that Schumacher in this prime years would have been -- out of this world?


Schumacher was insanely underrated during his time at Mercedes. He did a great job against Rosberg and would have probably been able to match any other driver out there. Put him in a RedBull and he would have won races and even challenged for the championship. Put him in this years Mercedes and he would undoubtably have a pole or two and maybe even a win.

Problem is that he was insanely overrated in his first career. What would a prime Schumacher really be compared to a 42 year old one? Considering how close he ran Rosberg, and how similar so far Hamilton has fared compared to Nico, how fast would a 30 year old schumacher be compared to a 40 year old? 1 tenth of a second faster? Maybe .2? Surely not enough to have done any more with that Mercedes results wise than what he and Rosberg did anyway.

Hamiltons speed compared to Rosberg is probably more of an indication of how little speed Schumacher lost in his old age than how fast he would have been in his prime. Otherwise we would have to conclude that none of the top drivers would stand a chance against a prime Schumacher.

#16 EthanM

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 09:34

Hamiltons speed compared to Rosberg is probably more of an indication of how little speed Schumacher lost in his old age than how fast he would have been in his prime.



I am sorry but that makes no sense whatsoever

#17 Jazza

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 09:48

I am sorry but that makes no sense whatsoever


1) If Hamilton was blowing Rosberg away then we could assume Rosberg wasn't much of a driver. This would mean that Nico was only second rate compared to the fastest drivers.
2) As Schumacher only matched Rosberg at best then we could assume that Schumacher had lost a lot of speed from his prime days. That's because he would only be as fast now as a second rate driver, and Schumacher surely was not second rate in his prime.

But that's not what is happening. Hamilton isn't doing any better against Rosberg than Schumacher did. This shows that Rosberg is not second rate, and is probably as fast as any of the other drivers out there. So why should we assume that Schumacher has lost a lot of speed since his best days? How much speed would Schumacher have to have lost to be much slower than when he was in his prime, yet still be as fast as the fastest drivers today?

The argument of this thread seems to want to have its cake and eat it to. It wants to make a case for;

1) Schumacher at 42 is as fast as Rosberg and Hamilton are in their prime.
2) Schumacher at 42 was nowhere near as good as he was in his heyday.

But that just doesn't add up.

Edited by Jazza, 30 May 2013 - 09:51.


#18 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 09:50

Out of all the scoring team mates in 2011 Schumacher and Rosberg were the closest; 13 points if I recall correctly. If that is a 'spanking' then I wonder what Button vs Hamilton 2011 was? :rolleyes:

Edited by Ferrari_F1_fan_2001, 30 May 2013 - 09:51.


#19 as65p

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 09:53

...can we then say that Schumacher in this prime years would have been -- out of this world?


Don't overdo it.

The comparison 2012 to 2013 with Rosbergs as a fixed value is (must be) already a bit shaky, because humans simply never stay the same, let alone factors like suitability of particular cars, etc.. Still it holds some value as the time span is small enough and in all likelihood (but without certainty) Rosberg hasn't improved that much form last November to now.

But this extrapolation about Schumacher 10 or more years ago... far too many factors.

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#20 Rikhart

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 10:24

I said as much in the hamilton vs rosberg thread, to many a "LOL" etc. Guess I was right!

#21 aliasj

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 10:36

The argument of this thread seems to want to have its cake and eat it to. It wants to make a case for;

1) Schumacher at 42 is as fast as Rosberg and Hamilton are in their prime.
2) Schumacher at 42 was nowhere near as good as he was in his heyday.


Hey man, I'm just chuffed to bits that today there's an article by a Autosport columnist which puts Schumacher's comeback in better light. I'm just glad enough about that. :)

#22 Big Block 8

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 10:40

Schumacher was insanely underrated during his time at Mercedes. He did a great job against Rosberg and would have probably been able to match any other driver out there. Put him in a RedBull and he would have won races and even challenged for the championship. Put him in this years Mercedes and he would undoubtably have a pole or two and maybe even a win.

Problem is that he was insanely overrated in his first career. What would a prime Schumacher really be compared to a 42 year old one? Considering how close he ran Rosberg, and how similar so far Hamilton has fared compared to Nico, how fast would a 30 year old schumacher be compared to a 40 year old? 1 tenth of a second faster? Maybe .2? Surely not enough to have done any more with that Mercedes results wise than what he and Rosberg did anyway.


:up:

Hamiltons speed compared to Rosberg is probably more of an indication of how little speed Schumacher lost in his old age than how fast he would have been in his prime. Otherwise we would have to conclude that none of the top drivers would stand a chance against a prime Schumacher.


That's correct although the latter will regardless be the most popular conclusion. Without that pesky Frentzen in 1989 in the same car, Flavio's and Todt's influence in MS's result sheet would have already been brushed under the carpet for good.

Edited by Big Block 8, 30 May 2013 - 10:41.


#23 Scotracer

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 10:51

A 2012 Michael Schumacher was as fast as any other driver on the grid. At 43.





#24 ivand911

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 10:52

I think Jonathan Noble has criticised MS in last 3 years, and to write this article means something. I guess more and more people see it.
About MS, I am happy he did well in his return. It wasn't the easy one, especially coming to new car(build for Button) and tyres in 2010 . But, he kept quiet and keep pushing. And in the last 2 years he and Nico were very close performance wise. Shame is he never got that very good car in his return.
I personally think he left F1 disappointed with the new direction F1 take. He didn't want to be part of that. He was to big racer to just drive around. The spark was still there, the speed was still there. But F1 he knew wasn't there.

Edited by ivand911, 30 May 2013 - 10:57.


#25 Obi Offiah

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 10:55

It could mean MSC never lost any of his speed, it just took him some time to settle in.

#26 Owen

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 10:56

A 2012 Michael Schumacher was as fast as any other driver on the grid. At 43.

How do you come to that conclusion? :confused:

#27 Jan.W

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 10:57

One must be fool to assume that the 42 years old Schumacher would have been on par with a 25 years old Schumacher. Even the 2006 Schumacher who fought against Alonso was past his prime.
Yes, Ms's global speed is as scaring as his statistics and records tend to show it. If that make you sick, go to a doctor.

#28 fololo

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 11:00

One must be fool to assume that the 42 years old Schumacher would have been on par with a 25 years old Schumacher. Even the 2006 Schumacher who fought against Alonso was past his prime.
Yes, Ms's global speed is as scaring as his statistics and records tend to show it. If that make you sick, go to a doctor.

Did schumacher reall had that bad luck in 2012 ? Lol

#29 aliasj

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 11:00

How do you come to that conclusion? :confused:


That's what this Autosport article says, http://plus.autospor...-to-reappraise/ by Jonathan Noble.

#30 schumimercamg

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 11:01

How do you come to that conclusion? :confused:


I would imagine his thought process is as follows:

(Hamilton considered by many to be fastest driver on current grid)

Schumacher as quick as Rosberg 2012

Rosberg as quick as Hamilton 2013

Ergo Schumacher similar in pace to Hamilton and therefore as fast as anyone.

#31 Scotracer

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 11:01

How do you come to that conclusion? :confused:


It was obvious from his qualifying and race pace. Especially when you consider how fast Rosberg has turned out to be.



#32 baddog

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 11:01

How do you come to that conclusion? :confused:

The fact that for a large part of the season he was in second place on aggregate qualifying position, ONLY being beaten by hamilton? What better measure of outright pace do you want exactly?

#33 ivand911

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 11:04

How do you come to that conclusion? :confused:

Monaco 2012 pole kind of suggest that?


#34 Owen

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 11:06

The fact that for a large part of the season he was in second place on aggregate qualifying position, ONLY being beaten by hamilton? What better measure of outright pace do you want exactly?

what does that mean?

#35 Massa_f1

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 11:09

His 2010 performance was poor there is denying that from any Schumacher fan. However once the middle of 2011 was here he was starting to get more out of the car. Anyone who looks at the 2012 drivers table and says yep Rosberg thrashed Schumacher plain did not watch the races. Especially the early races in the season when Mercedes had a good car. 2 podiums were lost, because of piss poor reliability along with a few points here and there. Come round 7 i was beginning to wonder if the car would ever get to the end of a race without failing. He also lost a possible victory in Monaco because of his own mistake the pervious race. However the car failed again in Monaco anyway so had he been leading it would of still lead to a DNF.

Overall apart from a few stupid mistakes especially during Singapore weekends and more notably Hungry 2012. I feel had luck of been on his side he would of out scored Rosberg in 2012

Edited by Massa_f1, 30 May 2013 - 11:14.


#36 schumimercamg

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 11:16

what does that mean?



What do you think it means?

In the first half of 2012 Schumacher's qualifying results were second only to Hamilton. At least know what you're talking about before trying to undermine one of the greatest ever.

#37 gillesthegenius

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 11:21

The fact that a 43 year old Schumi even kept up with Rosberg makes me wonder how many of the current 'top drivers' he would have humbled in his hey day. Just shows how silly the 'he never had a top team mate' brigade were. No one wins as much as he did without being head and shoulders above one's generation.

#38 Owen

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 11:24

What do you think it means?

In the first half of 2012 Schumacher's qualifying results were second only to Hamilton. At least know what you're talking about before trying to undermine one of the greatest ever.

That makes no sense to me. His qualifying results were not second when you look at the entire grid.
Are you talking about comparing his qualifying result with his team mate?

#39 Jan.W

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 11:26

The fact that a 43 year old Schumi even kept up with Rosberg makes me wonder how many of the current 'top drivers' he would have humbled in his hey day. Just shows how silly the 'he never had a top team mate' brigade were. No one wins as much as he did without being head and shoulders above one's generation.


:up:


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#40 baddog

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 11:30

That makes no sense to me. His qualifying results were not second when you look at the entire grid.
Are you talking about comparing his qualifying result with his team mate?

Yes they were. try to keep up. At this point last year Schumacher was second best overall in qualifying. Your personal incredulity does not equal data.

#41 gillesthegenius

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 11:33

It could mean MSC never lost any of his speed, it just took him some time to settle in.


Medically it is common knowledge that one's reflexes and eyesight starts to deteriorate significantly once someone hits the forties. So the chances are that he lost a significant chunk of his pace by the time he returned. So for him to stand firm against someone who is proving to be a very fast driver shows what an impressive comeback he actually had, inspite of what the stats say. In time, his second career may, god willing, be used to show what a mighty talent he actually was.

#42 aliasj

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 11:34

Yes they were. try to keep up. At this point last year Schumacher was second best overall in qualifying. Your personal incredulity does not equal data.


Wow, even I didn't know that. Not bad. :) Now only thing I hope is Rosberg vs Hamilton is just as close like this for another three years. That should undeniable then! Maybe Hamilton fans will get a taste of how it felt like to be a Schumacher fan during his comeback years.

Although I think Hamilton can still do something about it. Its going to be very interesting!

#43 Owen

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 11:35

Yes they were. try to keep up. At this point last year Schumacher was second best overall in qualifying. Your personal incredulity does not equal data.

Don't patronise me please. Many thanks. :up:
Let me get this correct; you're saying MS was faster than NR in qualifying in 2012 (more often than not and second top when you look at all the other team mate comparisions for that year) and from that you're extrapolating that he could beat all the other drivers?


#44 aliasj

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 11:36

Don't patronise me please. Many thanks. :up:
Let me get this correct; you're saying MS was faster than NR in qualifying in 2012 (more often than not and second top when you look at all the other team mate comparisions for that year) and from that you're extrapolating that he could beat all the other drivers?


MS/NR quali in 2012 was 10/10.

#45 PoleMan

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 11:38

Interesting that Noble feels comfortable making this assessment after only 6 races for Hamilton at Mercedes. Lewis has stated after the last 2 races how uncomfortable he still is with the car, but he's still able to put it second on the grid.

I think Lewis has plenty of speed we've yet to see, and will show that as the season progresses. That's not a knock on Rosberg or Schumacher, but I think it's way too premature to do any reappraisals before, at least, mid to 3/4 of the season has run. Nico certainly has the measure of Lewis ATM, but only time will tell if that continues.

Edited by PoleMan, 30 May 2013 - 11:41.


#46 aliasj

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 11:40

Interesting that Noble feels comfortable making this assessment after only 6 races for Hamilton at Mercedes. Lewis has stated after the last 2 races how uncomfortable he still is with the car, but he's still able to put it second on the grid.

I think Lewis has plenty of speed we've yet to see, and will show that as the season progresses. That's not a knock on Rosberg or Schumacher, but I think it's way too premature to do any reappraisals before, at least before mid to 3/4 of the season. Nico certainly has the measure of Lewis ATM, but only time will say if that continues.


Well he talked with the Mercedes guys, the engineers and Ross Brawn and came to this conclusion. But you're right, Hamilton can do something about it. But Rosberg is in his prime too, can also do something about it. So its going to be very interesting!

#47 PoleMan

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 11:45

Well he talked with the Mercedes guys, the engineers and Ross Brawn and came to this conclusion. But you're right, Hamilton can do something about it. But Rosberg is in his prime too, can also do something about it. So its going to be very interesting!

True! It is thisclose between them. I've always rated Nico, so quite happy to see him get some due credit. Just have a sneaking suspicion that Lewis can pull that little bit extra out of himself and the car...once he gets settled.

#48 schubacca

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 11:48

Interesting that Noble feels comfortable making this assessment after only 6 races for Hamilton at Mercedes. Lewis has stated after the last 2 races how uncomfortable he still is with the car, but he's still able to put it second on the grid.

I think Lewis has plenty of speed we've yet to see, and will show that as the season progresses. That's not a knock on Rosberg or Schumacher, but I think it's way too premature to do any reappraisals before, at least before mid to 3/4 of the season. Nico certainly has the measure of Lewis ATM, but only time will say if that continues.


Well for me at least, there was nothing to reappraise. MS was at least an equal to NR in 2011 and 2012. I also rated NR well during their stint together.

The common refrain of those wanting to slate MS's comeback as an utter failure was that NR was an average driver, not at the league of LH, FA, SV....

Upon LH joining Mercedes, the anti-MS brigade were gleefully claiming that MS's career would further be contextualized once LH started to beat NR.

Thus far this has not happened. And finally the same press that were dismissive of MS, are telling us what objective fans already knew:

-MS was not what he once was during his time at Mercedes.

-MS was not destroyed by his team mate.

-MS had a ton of bad luck at Mercedes.

-The Mercedes of 2010-2012 was not particularly good.

-F1 is different than the sprints that MS enjoyed.

For a 42 year old to do what he did deserves credit. People often talk of MS saying that AS was the best during GOAT conversations.... If FA stated that MS would win in a 2012 Sauber, then who are we are argue?;)

#49 Buttoneer

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 11:48

Interesting thread and great opening post, thank you.

This is a discussion which has been bubbling away under F1 for the last three years and here we are now with a thread to discuss it on topic.

Unlike his first career which I found incredibly dull for it's sheer predictability punctuated only by occasional drives which clearly were quite exemplary, I was really rooting for him to get himself a win and succeed in his return. Is anyone in doubt that making a 4-stop strategy work back in 2004(?) was fantastic to watch and impressive by any standard, for example, and surely appreciated by all fans of the sport for the sheer novelty value in an otherwise dull season? So I did follow the battle between him and Rosberg and have to take issue with your conclusions for 2010 because Schumacher was not as fast as Rosberg. He just wasn't. I think that you can argue that they were relatively strong and weak in different areas and maybe conclude that they were about equal in overall performance, if you try, but Schumacher was always playing catch up in terms of pace.

You conclude that they were equal because you were looking at every practice and stint and keeping an eye on fuel loads so can see more than us. Well no, you can't unless you have access to team data and have reviewed the sessions to see where or how they may have been held up or went out on a green versus rubbered-in circuit. You therefore are judging by the simple stats that we have all seen, can all see on Forix and which you have presented above.

There was a very good discussion at the end of that year in which many of us concluded that we saw a solid improvement in Schumacher over the year and that it gave hope for the future. The stats were far away, but the performances much closer. It may be worth digging some of those out to get a more contemporaneous feel for the conclusions drawn even by those who were there for the sake of following Schumacher only.

I do agree that he continued to improve through 2011 and maybe even edged it in 2012, despite the points deficit, for the reasons you state.

I also can't agree that we need to make allowance for age. How much allowance? And if you're going to make an allowance for that, surely you also have to make allowance the other way for relative experience, or the confidence of having 7 WDC's behind you? Do we allow for (trying to think of the current age spread) Webber versus Vettel and the age difference there and if so how much? If not, why not? The drivers enter and compete on an equal basis and we have to accept that they maintain an appropriate physical and mental fitness level. If they continue to compete beyond the time when their physical ability will no longer allow it, where do you draw the line and isn't that a different point for everybody? How could we judge that as spectators even if we suspect it to be true?

The age allowance is too much of an unknown quantity for us to be able to translate this into tenths of a second and IMO we have to judge them only as equals.

One place where Schumacher excelled over his second career was in supporting the team, not speaking out against them or criticising strategies. He was always a consummate professional and it was only seeing him contrasted against the current grid that you realise quite how much of a team player he was in that regard and how he managed to earn such loyalty and respect. I reckon Rosberg learned some of that from his father anyway but working with Schumacher must have underlined that for him.

Note; Exceptions to the above comments which are too general are...er..excepted, of course.

#50 race addicted

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 11:51

I don't think Schumacher lost any of his raw speed on his return, but I do think he wasn't able to pull of special laps as many times over the season as he was in say '00 to '04.
But, he made far too many mistakes, and already made one or three too many in his first career.

Now, about the qualifying score, I will say as I always do on that matter; it isn't really interesting. You need to look at the actual time differentials.
Taking a look at the Q-diffs last year at seasons end, I got Rosberg faster than Schumacher by 0.134 secs on average. My philosophy is to only compare times set in the same session, i.e if only one set a time in Q3, I went back to Q2 and compared there.

Edited by race addicted, 30 May 2013 - 12:01.