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Rank the drivers in outright pace and speed.


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#1 George Costanza

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 00:58

Do it in classes; for example: Class A: Senna, Schumacher, Hakkinen, Vettel, Jim Clark, Juan Manuel Fangio. Of those, in equal cars, I believe Ayrton is the fastest of all.

Now Current: Class A: Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton, Rosberg and Kimi.

Edited by George Costanza, 31 May 2013 - 00:58.


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#2 Brother Fox

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 01:09

This can only end well

#3 Afterburner

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 01:17

Would like to see this sort of thread make it without pointless mudslinging and driver versus driver chatter. Could we keep this one clean for once, guys?

The tier system gets a :up: from me, as I think it is the only logical way to go because many of these guys are too close to call in terms of their ability. My personal rankings, off the top of my head and without any meaningful consideration:

Tier S (proven talents who are the primary win-collectors)
Alonso
Hamilton
Raikkonen
Rosberg
Vettel

Tier A (drivers who have shown they can threaten for the win if the conditions are right but otherwise consistently rack up points)
Button
Hulkenberg
Perez
Maldonado
Sutil
Webber

Tier B (mostly one-hit wonders; they punch above their weight every once in a while but are more often than not fairly ordinary)
di Resta
Grosjean
Massa
Ricciardo
Sutil
Vergne

Tier C (either unproven or unimpressive--I'm aware most of these guys are in horrible cars, hence the 'unproven' tag)
Bianchi
Chilton
Gutierrez
Pic
van der Garde

I believe that F1's driver market is a self-regulating force and that the best drivers end up in the best cars, eventually, with only a few exceptions, so for the most part I believe everyone is in a position that matches their worth as a driver at the moment.

#4 holiday

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 01:28

Mario Andretti is special because he won in all kinds of cars at a time when most drivers were already specializing in one series.

Jack Brabham is unique because he won races with his own car in his own team.

Jochen Rindt was outstanding because he dominated for years f1 peers in identical f2 machinery.

Prost holds the record on the turbo beasts and outscored five WDC team-mates.

Peterson and G. Villeneuve were widely noted for their sheer speed.

Alan Jones took shit from nobody.

Bellof was frightening quick in sportscars.

There were so many fine drivers over the years, this masturbating over the usual three, four suspects is kind of fatiguing.





#5 charly0418

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 01:39

Every driver is more or less where it should be. Except Hulkenberg, he deserves a better car

#6 amppatel

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 02:15

Would like to see this sort of thread make it without pointless mudslinging and driver versus driver chatter. Could we keep this one clean for once, guys?

The tier system gets a :up: from me, as I think it is the only logical way to go because many of these guys are too close to call in terms of their ability. My personal rankings, off the top of my head and without any meaningful consideration:

Tier S (proven talents who are the primary win-collectors)
Alonso
Hamilton
Raikkonen
Rosberg
Vettel

Tier A (drivers who have shown they can threaten for the win if the conditions are right but otherwise consistently rack up points)
Button
Hulkenberg
Perez
Maldonado
Sutil
Webber

Tier B (mostly one-hit wonders; they punch above their weight every once in a while but are more often than not fairly ordinary)
di Resta
Grosjean
Massa
Ricciardo
Sutil
Vergne

Tier C (either unproven or unimpressive--I'm aware most of these guys are in horrible cars, hence the 'unproven' tag)
Bianchi
Chilton
Gutierrez
Pic
van der Garde

I believe that F1's driver market is a self-regulating force and that the best drivers end up in the best cars, eventually, with only a few exceptions, so for the most part I believe everyone is in a position that matches their worth as a driver at the moment.


Let's not get too ahead of ourselves.


#7 lbennie

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 02:35

webber > rosberg, when it comes to raw pace.

Hamilton fans need to stop trying to talk up rosberg, lewis will come good once he's settled in properly, don't worry.





#8 Brother Fox

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 03:06

Tier A (drivers who have shown they can threaten for the win if the conditions are right but otherwise consistently rack up points)
Button
Hulkenberg
Perez
Maldonado
Sutil
Webber

You think he might be a bit flattered by a single unlikely victory?

#9 Kingshark

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 03:13

Tier 1
Hamilton
Alonso
Vettel
Raikkonen

Tier 2
Rosberg
Hulkenberg
Maldonado
Perez

Tier 3
Button
Massa
Webber
Grosjean
Sutil
di Resta

This is raw pace and speed, not nessecary being the full package. I'm judging the drivers based on the talent they have. Yes, I do believe that Hulk, Pastor, and Checo have more speed than Button/Massa/Webber.

#10 Kyo

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 03:16

Are we talking about one lap or a full race distance?

#11 Afterburner

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 03:19

Let's not get too ahead of ourselves.

webber > rosberg, when it comes to raw pace.

Hamilton fans need to stop trying to talk up rosberg, lewis will come good once he's settled in properly, don't worry.

You think he might be a bit flattered by a single unlikely victory?

Whoa now, I did say I didn't put a whole lot of thought into it. :p I think Rosberg's done better than both Webber and Button this year, hence his placement in the uppermost tier. I also thought Maldonado did pretty well last year (e.g. 3rd in Singapore qualifying).

Just to highlight how little I really cared about that list, I just realised I placed Maldonado out of alphabetical order, Sutil's listed twice, and Bottas is missing. :rotfl:

#12 charly0418

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 03:20

Let's not get too ahead of ourselves.


3 poles in a row and beating Hamilton is more than enough for me to say the guy is pretty fast

#13 Kingshark

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 03:24

Are we talking about one lap or a full race distance?

Probably a combination of both.

#14 amppatel

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 03:56

3 poles in a row and beating Hamilton is more than enough for me to say the guy is pretty fast


LH is off form, even Button would beat him.

#15 bourbon

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 04:06

I don't believe one can compare across eras - but it is fun to do, so not telling anyone not to. But I'll stick with current:

Vettel/Raikkonen
Hamilton/Rosberg
Webber/Grosjean/Hulkenberg
Alonso/Perez
Maldonado


This is ever evolving...



#16 Kyo

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 04:08

All Time
One Lap: Ayrton
Full race: Fangio, Clark, A. Senna, M. Schumacher

Current (Pirelli era)
One Lap: Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso. (May add Rosberg in the future if he keeps matching Lewis over the season)
Full Race: Vettel, Alonso, Raikkonen.

#17 Anderis

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 04:24

I'm tired of these all drivers classifications.

"Rank the drivers in outright pace and speed". Where should I put Webber, if I think he can be as fast as anyone during a single event but can't mantain his speed during the season? How can I rank fairly and properly drivers who only had unknown quality team-mates during their F1 careers?

Ok, for fun it might be. But I doubt anyone knows enough to rank them all.

#18 BigCHrome

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 04:39

LH is off form, even Button would beat him.


Now THAT's getting ahead of ourselves.

#19 gillesthegenius

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 04:50

I'm tired of these all drivers classifications.

"Rank the drivers in outright pace and speed". Where should I put Webber, if I think he can be as fast as anyone during a single event but can't mantain his speed during the season? How can I rank fairly and properly drivers who only had unknown quality team-mates during their F1 careers?

Ok, for fun it might be. But I doubt anyone knows enough to rank them all.


That's probably true for every discussion we have about f1 in this forum.

Edited by gillesthegenius, 31 May 2013 - 04:53.


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#20 Anderis

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 05:24

That's probably true for every discussion we have about f1 in this forum.

Not really. Not everything is as sophisticated as this IMO. When the problem is not as complex as this, one may have enough knowledge to make a good point IMO.

#21 Oho

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 05:38

...


So how unimpressive exactly is Bottas....

#22 The Kanisteri

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 06:18

Sure experience and good positions at good teams makes difference but I still would say it's more up to car.

#23 garoidb

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 06:26

3 poles in a row and beating Hamilton is more than enough for me to say the guy is pretty fast


Lewis is not the benchmark. It is not as simple as that.

#24 Kingshark

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 06:41

I don't believe one can compare across eras - but it is fun to do, so not telling anyone not to. But I'll stick with current:

Vettel/Raikkonen
Hamilton/Rosberg
Webber/Grosjean/Hulkenberg
Alonso/Perez
Maldonado


This is ever evolving...

Jesus Christ. :stoned:

Alonso is 3 tiers below Raikkonen and Vettel in speed, and even slower than Webber and Grosjean. :lol:

Edited by Kingshark, 31 May 2013 - 06:42.


#25 ardbeg

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 06:47

Mario Andretti is special because he won in all kinds of cars at a time when most drivers were already specializing in one series.

Jack Brabham is unique because he won races with his own car in his own team.

Jochen Rindt was outstanding because he dominated for years f1 peers in identical f2 machinery.

Prost holds the record on the turbo beasts and outscored five WDC team-mates.

Peterson and G. Villeneuve were widely noted for their sheer speed.

Alan Jones took shit from nobody.

Bellof was frightening quick in sportscars.

There were so many fine drivers over the years, this masturbating over the usual three, four suspects is kind of fatiguing.

:up:


#26 Jackmancer

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 06:53

Chaos tier:
Maldonado
Perez
Grosjean



#27 garoidb

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 06:59

Jesus Christ. :stoned:

Alonso is 3 tiers below Raikkonen and Vettel in speed, and even slower than Webber and Grosjean. :lol:


Don't tell Ferrari!

#28 windoesnot

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 07:16

I don't believe one can compare across eras - but it is fun to do, so not telling anyone not to. But I'll stick with current:

Vettel/Raikkonen
Hamilton/Rosberg
Webber/Grosjean/Hulkenberg
Alonso/Perez
Maldonado


This is ever evolving...


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#29 schumimercamg

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 07:37

LH is off form, even Button would beat him.



What a load of utter tosh.

#30 luftwaffeSHA

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 07:39

All Time
One Lap: Ayrton
Full race: Fangio, Clark, A. Senna, M. Schumacher

Current (Pirelli era)
One Lap: Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso. (May add Rosberg in the future if he keeps matching Lewis over the season)
Full Race: Vettel, Alonso, Raikkonen.


Its a crime not to add Alain's name in the race pace category. His race pace and race craft were outstanding. What he lacked to Ayrton in qualifying he gained back with his race pace.

#31 Oho

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 07:59

Jesus Christ. :stoned:

Alonso is 3 tiers below Raikkonen and Vettel in speed, and even slower than Webber and Grosjean. :lol:


Taste of your own medicine, does it taste foul....

#32 prty

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 08:12

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9...319109_460s.jpg

#33 rko281

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 08:17

Chaos tier:
Maldonado
Perez
Grosjean

:rotfl:


that's the only tier that might be unanimously agreed in this thread.



#34 Fulcrum

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 08:58

Class A: Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso
Class B: Button, Webber, Rosberg, Raikko, Massa

#35 Shiroo

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 09:05

Class A: Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso
Class B: Button, Webber, Rosberg, Raikko, Massa

Rosberg beating Hamilton:
Hamilton still being class A, Rosberg class B.
wow, these butthurt Hamilton fans. Hamilton is overrated, or Rosberg underrated. So far Rosberg looks way better than Hamilton.
Raikkonen class B is silly as well. Then Alonso would have 150 pts in that Lotus.

#36 DampMongoose

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 09:15

Its a crime not to add Alain's name in the race pace category. His race pace and race craft were outstanding. What he lacked to Ayrton in qualifying he gained back with his race pace.


It's even worse to leave Moss off that list...

#37 skywing

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 09:17

So how unimpressive exactly is Bottas....

It easy, he should be in class S then.

:p

#38 Lelouch

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 09:17

I pretty much agree with Afterburner but I would swap Perez and Di Resta.

Edit: and Maldonado, Grosjean bottom of B.

Edited by Lelouch, 31 May 2013 - 09:20.


#39 Kingshark

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 09:30

Taste of your own medicine, does it taste foul....

Epic fail. :lol:

Where did I ever rate Raikkonen/Vettel alongside Perez, and below Webber and Grosjean?

There you go. :wave:

Edited by Kingshark, 31 May 2013 - 09:33.


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#40 TheThirdTenor1

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 09:35

I don't believe one can compare across eras - but it is fun to do, so not telling anyone not to. But I'll stick with current:

Vettel/Raikkonen
Hamilton/Rosberg
Webber/Grosjean/Hulkenberg
Alonso/Perez
Maldonado


This is ever evolving...


You must be smoking the strongest weed known to man (or perhaps you're a crack addict?).

#41 ArkZ

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 09:41

All Time
One Lap: Ayrton
Full race: Fangio, Clark, A. Senna, M. Schumacher

Current (Pirelli era)
One Lap: Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso. (May add Rosberg in the future if he keeps matching Lewis over the season)
Full Race: Vettel, Alonso, Raikkonen.


In terms of race pace Alonso fully deserves to be equal with Fangio, Clark, A. Senna, M. Schumacher and Prost.

Edited by ArkZ, 31 May 2013 - 09:47.


#42 noikeee

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 09:44

Tier 1
--------
Vettel
Alonso

Tier 2
--------
Raikkonen
Hamilton
Rosberg
Hulkenberg

Tier 3
--------
Webber
Button
Pérez
Massa

Tier 4
--------
Grosjean
Maldonado
di Resta
Sutil
Bottas
Bianchi
Ricciardo
Vergne

Tier 5
--------
Gutiérrez
Pic
vd Garde
Chilton

Hugely subjective and constantly changing ranking due to form, perception, etc. First time ever I've not thought of Hamilton as tier 1, I still struggle to think of Rosberg as an equal on pace but well, the results are there, what can I say? Is it a temporary run of form or something permanent that needs re-adjusting our perceptions? Nobody knows.

This is also a particularly competitive field, and there is very little difference between every tier except perhaps tier 4 and 5 (and even then I nearly further divided that into 6, with the likes of Pic and Sutil going into the intermediate one). Then there's drivers with explosive pace like Maldonado or Grosjean whose pace will then disappear or be ruined by crashes - it seems stupid to lump them in with far superior drivers like say, Button, but they may very well be just as quick as them?

#43 Kobasmashi

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 09:45

Rosberg beating Hamilton:
Hamilton still being class A, Rosberg class B.
wow, these butthurt Hamilton fans. Hamilton is overrated, or Rosberg underrated. So far Rosberg looks way better than Hamilton.
Raikkonen class B is silly as well. Then Alonso would have 150 pts in that Lotus.


Because, you know, 3-3 in qualifying and being behind in the points against someone who's just joined the new team you're at for a fourth year constitutes "way better" nowadays...

Hamilton, Alonso, Vettel and Raikkonen are the top tier now in my eyes, if pressed I'd rate Alonso and Hamilton above the other 2 but they're very hard to separate. If Nico can keep this early form up he'll certainly be knocking on the door of the top tier.

#44 prty

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 09:50

The key thing for Rosberg being ahead of Hamilton is tyres, Hamilton never was easy on them in his whole career, and this year especially it is crucial.

#45 Lelouch

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 10:10

Because, you know, 3-3 in qualifying and being behind in the points against someone who's just joined the new team you're at for a fourth year constitutes "way better" nowadays...

Hamilton, Alonso, Vettel and Raikkonen are the top tier now in my eyes, if pressed I'd rate Alonso and Hamilton above the other 2 but they're very hard to separate. If Nico can keep this early form up he'll certainly be knocking on the door of the top tier.

Well in the first 3 races we had "Lewis is gong to destroy Nico", after 3 more we have "Nico is going to destroy Lewis" so you can see the pattern. The fact is that both of them are doing a very good job and after Rosberg follows the 4 you mention.

#46 P123

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 10:25

Hugely subjective and constantly changing ranking due to form, perception, etc.


That's the problem with trying to slot drivers into imaginery 'tiers'. As you say, form fluctuates, which is something the majority of F1 fans fail to comprehend. As Rosberg has shown (and Webber, and Massa) the supposedly quickest guys aren't bullet proof. It's all very close at the top. On present form and career perception you would have to say Vettel is the fastest, but then again that's based on a comparison largely against Webber. Would that change up against another teammate, would it be reinforced? Alonso/ Hamilton/ Raikkonen have had a range of teammates from which a general view can be established.

#47 P123

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 10:26

The key thing for Rosberg being ahead of Hamilton is tyres, Hamilton never was easy on them in his whole career, and this year especially it is crucial.


That's a bit of a myth.

#48 prty

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 10:32

That's a bit of a myth.


No, not really. Already in 2007 he had a tyre failure in Turkey because of of the punishment they were receiving, and in 2008 he had to do an extra stop. PDLR said that he was not as fast in Michelins when he was testing in 2006. Sure there have been races where he had good tyre management, but those were the exception more than the norm.

#49 stillOrange

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 10:41

I'm going to write only about current drivers.

If we are talking here about driver's abilities and talent in general I would have to put Vettel, Alonso, Raikkonen and Hamilton in top tier. That is because we have all seen what they are capable of. They won number of races is various conditions in various cars (not talking here about different teams but different cars), each of them has a championship to their name and all of them have shown some amazing speed and drives.
The second tier would be Rosberg, Button and Webber as they have won races, shown speed at some points in their careers and showed/show their skills against teammates that are in my opinion in the top tier.

If we are talking here about their current form at that stage of career, then it would look more like:
1st tier: Vettel, Alonso, Raikkonen
2nd tier: Rosberg, Hamilton
3rd tier: Webber, Button, Massa, maybe Hulkenberg


#50 mnmracer

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 11:11

The thing I find fascinating is that some people rate Webber (significantly) below Rosberg, despite Webber beating Rosberg in Nico's rookie year.
Yet the other two rookie-year-comparison drivers at the top, go unchanged.