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Rank the drivers in outright pace and speed.


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#51 Shiroo

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 11:22

Because, you know, 3-3 in qualifying and being behind in the points against someone who's just joined the new team you're at for a fourth year constitutes "way better" nowadays...

Hamilton, Alonso, Vettel and Raikkonen are the top tier now in my eyes, if pressed I'd rate Alonso and Hamilton above the other 2 but they're very hard to separate. If Nico can keep this early form up he'll certainly be knocking on the door of the top tier.

Nico had 2 failures. Also he should be 3rd in Malaysia, but he didn't want to break order from Ross. From my perspecvtive he looks better nowdays than Hamilton.
And Hamilton being hard on tyres is myth I believe. He showed few times this season that he was pretty good on tyres often

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#52 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 11:27

Have we all forgotten how fast Hamilton was in the McLaren, and we're talking outright pace and speed according to the topic title. He thrashed Jenson Button in three years on raw pace, so I still believe on raw pace he is the fastest along with Vettel. In race intelligence Raikkonen and Alonso look superior to me.

#53 noikeee

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 11:33

The thing I find fascinating is that some people rate Webber (significantly) below Rosberg, despite Webber beating Rosberg in Nico's rookie year.
Yet the other two rookie-year-comparison drivers at the top, go unchanged.


My perception is that Rosberg has improved a fair bit since 2006, with Webber losing a little bit of his edge he had at the time - both going through the expected curve of form/performance throughout a driver's career. Conversely, Alonso seems as strong as ever whilst Hamilton seems not to have developed at all since 2008/9 or so, indeed he actually seems a little weaker than then?

Not every driver develops to the norm - steady improvement through their first few seasons, stabilized for several years through his late 20s, early 30s, slowly degrade from their mid 30s. This is what I usually expect, and it seems to fit Rosberg and Webber, however it doesn't fit my perception of Hamilton.

Hugely subjective of course! I don't think Webber's lost a big amount - just ever so slightly. Rosberg seems clearly stronger than then, though.

#54 P123

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 11:51

No, not really. Already in 2007 he had a tyre failure in Turkey because of of the punishment they were receiving, and in 2008 he had to do an extra stop. PDLR said that he was not as fast in Michelins when he was testing in 2006. Sure there have been races where he had good tyre management, but those were the exception more than the norm.


No, you're picking out exceptions and trying to use them as the norm.

#55 Radoye

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 12:00

OK i'll bite :)

Tier 1 - proven champions, always in contention for victory
Vettel
Alonso
Hamilton
Raikkonen

Tier 2 - regular race winners, could luck into championship under right conditions
Button
Massa
Webber
Rosberg

Tier 3 - fast but inconsistent, could score a win or two
Grosjean
Sutil
di Resta
Perez
Hulkenberg
Maldonado

Tier 4 - meh
Vergne
Ricciardo
Pic

Tier 5 - too early to judge
Gutierez
Bottas
Bianchi
van der Garde
Chilton

#56 st99

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 14:16

Current drivers, I don't think we can compare drivers of different eras)

Class A (in no particular order)

Hamilton, Kimi, Vettel, Alonso (Alonso and Kimi a little bit better in race pace and Hamilton and Vettel a little bit better in qualifying)

Class B

Button, Webber, Rosberg (if he continues to outrace Hamilton I'll put him on the class A), Hulkenberg

Class C

Massa, Pérez (maybe at the end of the season I'll place him a class higher if he beats Button), Maldonado, Grosjean

Class D

Bianchi, Bottas, Sutil, di Resta, JEV, Ricciardo

Class E
Gutiérrez, Van der Garde, Pic

Class F

Chilton

Edited by st99, 31 May 2013 - 14:17.


#57 Afterburner

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 14:27

So how unimpressive exactly is Bottas....

So unimpressive I forgot about him, evidently. :p He'd probably be below the A-tier but near/above the C-tier. Not sure, but once you get that down there it's really hard to differentiate them accurately.

I pretty much agree with Afterburner but I would swap Perez and Di Resta.

Edit: and Maldonado, Grosjean bottom of B.

They're supposed to be alphabetised, because I don't think you can really put one above the other if they're in the same tier in the first place.

#58 SpaMaster

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 15:01

Probably a combination of both.

Pace and speed should always be based for the completion of a race distance. It could be fastest over the first flying lap and defend from there or optimize your pace for the race and start overtaking cars in the race and finish first. Whatever be the case, the end result of the race justifies the means.

In that sense, I would say Alonso and Raikkonen are right up at the top. May be Vettel and Hamilton also up be up there with them albeit with less certainty from me and this is probably due to the less sample data available for them given that those two are much younger. I value the pace of finishing the race in these cases.

Others are definitely a level below. Some are proven to be below and others lack enough years to form an opinion, these are guys with potential - Hulkenberg is probably at the top of this list.

I won't venture into comparison across eras. There is too much subjectivity into it. We can only point out the cream from each era. I think it would be pretty pointless in the thread's context.

I'm tired of these all drivers classifications.

"Rank the drivers in outright pace and speed". Where should I put Webber, if I think he can be as fast as anyone during a single event but can't mantain his speed during the season? How can I rank fairly and properly drivers who only had unknown quality team-mates during their F1 careers?

Ok, for fun it might be. But I doubt anyone knows enough to rank them all.

You have to consider consistency as a very key element.

Many unknown quality teammates means uncertainty and if they haven't fared impressively against those teammates, it is time to drop those names.

Edited by SpaMaster, 31 May 2013 - 15:05.


#59 schubacca

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 15:41

Whoa now, I did say I didn't put a whole lot of thought into it. :p I think Rosberg's done better than both Webber and Button this year, hence his placement in the uppermost tier. I also thought Maldonado did pretty well last year (e.g. 3rd in Singapore qualifying).

Just to highlight how little I really cared about that list, I just realised I placed Maldonado out of alphabetical order, Sutil's listed twice, and Bottas is missing. :rotfl:


I like your list....

I may put NR down a tier, but I could also see him as top-tier also...

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#60 2ms

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 16:22

Have we all forgotten how fast Hamilton was in the McLaren, and we're talking outright pace and speed according to the topic title. He thrashed Jenson Button in three years on raw pace, so I still believe on raw pace he is the fastest along with Vettel. In race intelligence Raikkonen and Alonso look superior to me.


He thrashed Jenson Button in 3 years? Is that why they had essentially equal number of points scored in those 3 years? Button thrashed Hamilton in qualifying but then Hamilton thrashed Button in pace so they came out equal?

Edited by 2ms, 31 May 2013 - 16:28.


#61 2ms

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 16:28

Vettel and Raikkonen are today's Senna and Prost, as far as in-race pace goes.

Edited by 2ms, 31 May 2013 - 16:29.


#62 Kobasmashi

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 17:43

He thrashed Jenson Button in 3 years? Is that why they had essentially equal number of points scored in those 3 years? Button thrashed Hamilton in qualifying but then Hamilton thrashed Button in pace so they came out equal?


I think he may be exaggerating, but the difference in between them would be regarded differently had Hamilton scored the points he deserved to in 2012, having lost wins at Catalunya, Singapore, Yas Marina and Interlagos through no fault of his own, and ended up with a whopping 4 points from those races. I think Button surprised everybody by how close he was to Hamilton in 2010, and then he drove the season of his life in 2011 (IMO better than 04 or 09), which also coincided with Hamilton's nightmare 2nd half of the season, but in 2011 he was very much Prost to Hamilton's De Cesaris :smoking:

I think Lewis drove his best ever season in 2012, every bit as good as Alonso's, which is regarded as almost mythical by some, but he was very much let down by his team.

#63 BigCHrome

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 17:49

Vettel and Raikkonen are today's Senna and Prost, as far as in-race pace goes.


They are not even on the same planet.

#64 Kingshark

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 18:03

The thing I find fascinating is that some people rate Webber (significantly) below Rosberg, despite Webber beating Rosberg in Nico's rookie year.

Because Rosberg has improved a lot since 2006, whereas Webber is only declining at this point of his career.

Vettel and Raikkonen are today's Senna and Prost, as far as in-race pace goes.

Raikkonen? Same league as Senna and Prost? :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

#65 sopa

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 18:43

There were so many fine drivers over the years, this masturbating over the usual three, four suspects is kind of fatiguing.


Thought of the thread I'd say.

People bring up some 4-5 drivers of all times in tier one as "best", but can they really say that, say, prime-form Moss, Rindt, Stewart, Lauda were worse than Schumacher or Senna? These are just some examples.

#66 sopa

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 18:50

In the current grid the funniest person is Rosberg. People are so confused whether he is now a tier 1 or tier 2 LOL. It reminds me of Massa in 2008, Button 2011. Drivers, who previously were not rated that highly, suddenly were very good and people didn't know, what to think of it. But once those drivers fell off again, people came out of the bushes again to say "I always said this guy was average". Just keep in mind, once Rosberg has a couple of bad races, there will be people come out to say that they always knew he wasn't anything special.

Swings and roundabouts and rollercoaster ride of driver ratings as always.:D

#67 SpaMaster

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 18:57

Because Rosberg has improved a lot since 2006, whereas Webber is only declining at this point of his career.


Raikkonen? Same league as Senna and Prost? :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Where did he say Raikkonen is in the league of Senna and Prost? :rolleyes:

Raikkonen is in his own league and he is one of the top drivers of his generation. That's enough. That was the point of that statement. Easy on those rotfls, they can be applied to any driver, any team as needed.

#68 sopa

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 19:03

You can keep in mind that a lot can change even in half a year. So let's see this thread revisited at the end of the year. Just some examples:

In 2012 after half a year Vettel was considered average, well below Alonso and Hamilton. Yet he came back strong and won the title, keeps winning.
In 2011 after half a year Hamilton was superior to Button. No-one saw Button could turn it around, but starting with a win in Hungary he did.
In 2010 Alonso was an average driver after half a year, so was Vettel. Yet they came from fourth and fifth in the championship standings up to first and second and the best drivers of the year.
In 2009 Button was mega after half a year. In the end people were questioning, how average he really is.
In 2008 Raikkonen was a top driver after half a year. Point standings after UK: 48 pts for Hamilton, Massa, Raikkonen all tied. But in the end Raikkonen dropped off massively. Vettel was a nobody after half a year, but a future WDC in the end.

So what will change during 2013? Will Rosberg disappear? Hamilton collapse or conversely amaze? Alonso fight back impressively? Raikkonen drops off? Vettel drops off? Button has a stormer of a second half like in 2006? Or, say, Perez, Grosjean, Maldonado or Vergne has such a stunning second half that he/they will be the n-th top driver on the grid? :D

#69 Kyo

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 19:10

Its a crime not to add Alain's name in the race pace category. His race pace and race craft were outstanding. What he lacked to Ayrton in qualifying he gained back with his race pace.

Maybe in your sweet dreams, but certainly not in reality. The only thing Alain was better than Ayrton was in bringing back the car, but the OP asked about pace alone.

In the races that both drivers finished in 1988 Senna was ahead in 7 and Prost in 5. In the races that one of the drivers didn't finish (Monaco, Silverstone and Monza) Senna was ahead the 3 times.

In 1989 there was not a single race that you can say Prost had a better race pace. Senna was ahead in 7 (which only Germany Alain had a equal pace) and Prost in 1 race (I'm talking about Brazil where Senna was sandwiched by Berger and Patrese at the start, lost 2 laps and had nothing more to do in the race) when both drivers finished. In the races that one driver didn't finish we have Canada, France, England and Australia that one of the drivers retired at the beginning of the race, USA, Italy and Portugal Senna was ahead and had the better pace and Suzuka where Prost was actually ahead, but didn't have a better pace.

#70 Kyo

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 19:34

It's even worse to leave Moss off that list...

Is it? My opinion is based by a few footages, interviews and stats. Certainly not the best way to analyze a driver performance, but that is what I got and IMO Fangio was a class above.

#71 Kingshark

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 19:37

Where did he say Raikkonen is in the league of Senna and Prost? :rolleyes:

Raikkonen is in his own league and he is one of the top drivers of his generation. That's enough. That was the point of that statement. Easy on those rotfls, they can be applied to any driver, any team as needed.

He said Raikkonen and Vettel are this generations Senna and Prost as far as race-pace goes, which shows he believes that no one comes close to them, as no one could touch Senna and Prost 25 years ago.
That's laughable, because Seb and Kimi aren't even ahead of Nando or Lewis, let alone out-classing them by streets.

Edited by Kingshark, 31 May 2013 - 19:38.


#72 sopa

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 19:43

Is it? My opinion is based by a few footages, interviews and stats. Certainly not the best way to analyze a driver performance, but that is what I got and IMO Fangio was a class above.


But Moss' prime was 58-61, when Fangio wasn't racing any more.

#73 garoidb

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 19:48

He said Raikkonen and Vettel are this generations Senna and Prost as far as race-pace goes, which shows he believes that no one comes close to them, as no one could touch Senna and Prost 25 years ago.
That's laughable, because Seb and Kimi aren't even ahead of Nando or Lewis, let alone out-classing them by streets.


This isn't really true either - unless you really are tying it down to just 1988 when they had one of the most dominant cars ever. Plenty of other drivers were competitive with Prost and Senna on their day, and the perception of there being a gang of three, four or five top drivers was there too. I'm not saying that Prost and Senna were not the best overall, just that this was not the case in every race or situation. Like now.

#74 holiday

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 19:49

Maybe in your sweet dreams, but certainly not in reality. The only thing Alain was better than Ayrton was in bringing back the car, but the OP asked about pace alone.


Not again. The reality is that Alain Prost led Ayrton Senna in 29 of their 32 races in the championship.

And in 1989 he was clearly treated by the team as the unwanted stepchild, at the latest after he announced his switch to Dennis' arch nemesis Ferrari.

In 1990 then, he made more of his inferior material than Senna did, showing some superb drives.


#75 PurpleHam

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 19:51

Current F1 - Hamilton is the fastest over one lap and race distance, if they all drive the same car, with tyres that allow racing.

All Time - Senna, Hamilton, Schumacher, in no order.

Edited by PurpleHam, 31 May 2013 - 21:35.


#76 holiday

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 20:01

This isn't really true either - unless you really are tying it down to just 1988 when they had one of the most dominant cars ever. Plenty of other drivers were competitive with Prost and Senna on their day, and the perception of there being a gang of three, four or five top drivers was there too. I'm not saying that Prost and Senna were not the best overall, just that this was not the case in every race or situation. Like now.


:up: Take Mansell. In his winning years 1985-1992, he won just as many GPs as Prost or Senna did (around 30) and he had no better machinery overall and no slouches as team-mates, either. Still, he is considered by many like a George Harrison, below the uber-talents of Alain McCartney and Ayrton Lennon. How come then he was just as successful in terms of GP wins?

Edited by holiday, 31 May 2013 - 20:02.


#77 Kyo

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 20:02

But Moss' prime was 58-61, when Fangio wasn't racing any more.

Like I said I went with what I got, and I don't think Moss would beat Fangio if both were put together in the same car while they were both in their primes. That is my todays impression which can certainly change in the future if I'm presented to new facts, footages and interviews.

#78 SpaMaster

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 20:05

He said Raikkonen and Vettel are this generations Senna and Prost as far as race-pace goes, which shows he believes that no one comes close to them, as no one could touch Senna and Prost 25 years ago.
That's laughable, because Seb and Kimi aren't even ahead of Nando or Lewis, let alone out-classing them by streets.

Absolute horse crap. He only said the first non-bolded part, the remaining bolded part is all your imagination and non-sense. Senna and Prost are known for their contrasting driving styles - qualy pace vs race pace. Similarly in this generation, he suggests Vettel has great qualy pace and Raikkonen has great race pace. This is not such an outrageous statement to make. After all most people agree that Vettel is very good in qualy and Raikkonen is very good with race pace. You are getting way too defensive imagining stuff relating to your (your team's) driver(s). He did not say anything about these two being ahead of other drivers. Prost had Lauda in his generation, Senna had Schumacher in his generation and both had Piquet. These three are not lesser drivers. Stop imagining things.

This thread always had the risk of petty fanboyism and inflammatory posts.

#79 SpaMaster

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 20:08

Current F1 - Hamilton is the fastest over one lap and race distance, if they all drive the same car, with with tyres that allow racing.

This sentence has unusual grammar - "if" and "is". Hamilton is the fastest - Is that a fact? Is they all drive the same car - Did they?

All Time - Senna, Hamilton, Schumacher, in no order.

Until I read this sentence. Now it all makes sense. :stoned:

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#80 holiday

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 20:08

Like I said I went with what I got, and I don't think Moss would beat Fangio if both were put together in the same car while they were both in their primes.


Fangio was beaten fair and square by Farina in the same car in 1950 with the result that Farina, not Fangio, became the first F1 WDC. Admittedly Fangio got the upperhand in the following season, but if he was really so uber as portrayed he would have never allowed this, would he?

#81 Sakae

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 20:10

Current F1 - Hamilton is the fastest over one lap and race distance, if they all drive the same car, with with tyres that allow racing.



...and myth lives on. McLaren was fastest car in straight line speed, and until you put Vettel into the same seat, dream on.

#82 Kyo

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 20:19

Fangio was beaten fair and square by Farina in the same car in 1950 with the result that Farina, not Fangio, became the first F1 WDC. Admittedly Fangio got the upperhand in the following season, but if he was really so uber as portrayed he would have never allowed this, would he?

ohh god, we are discussing pace here not why a or b won or who is better overall. Farina won 1950 because he had fewer retirements not because he had a better race pace than Fangio.

#83 Shiroo

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 20:25

Current F1 - Hamilton is the fastest over one lap and race distance, if they all drive the same car, with with tyres that allow racing.

All Time - Senna, Hamilton, Schumacher, in no order.

I have no idea which one of these 2 is more wrong. Hamilton being atm fastest (and that based on what? that he had plenty of WDC cars and won only 1? by quite a luck)

or 2nd and not mentioning Fangio, Mansell, Prost, Clark? well they were pretty amazing as well, and IT IS SILLY to put Hamilton with them in one line

#84 Zoetrope

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 20:27

I read only first page. Can someone close this thread? :rotfl:

#85 holiday

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 20:31

ohh god, we are discussing pace here not why a or b won or who is better overall. Farina won 1950 because he had fewer retirements not because he had a better race pace than Fangio.


I count two retirements each. Fangio in GB and Switzerland, Farina in France and Monaco.

So why did Fangio not wipe the floor with Farina if he were "one class above the rest"?

Farina was even 5 years older, clocking at no less than 44 years (!!!), yet he beat Fangio.

Edited by holiday, 31 May 2013 - 20:32.


#86 Freung

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 20:32

Current F1 - Hamilton is the fastest over one lap and race distance, if they all drive the same car, with with tyres that allow racing.

All Time - Senna, Hamilton, Schumacher, in no order.


:up: :up: With this, i agree completely.! Only one of the reasons why the current tyres are so 'loved'. Hehe

#87 Freung

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 20:34

...and myth lives on. McLaren was fastest car in straight line speed, and until you put Vettel into the same seat, dream on.


Well,we can certainly say that he was fastest in GP2 etc.. Who can dispute this.?? Anyone.??

#88 jrg19

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 20:36

Hamilton is up there, almost 3 years consecutively into Q3.

#89 garoidb

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 20:37

Well,we can certainly say that he was fastest in GP2 etc.. Who can dispute this.?? Anyone.??


Yes, he was the fastest in GP2 in 2006. I think PurpleHam is pushing the boat out a bit further than this, though.

#90 RSNS

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 20:46

I like this kind of thread...

In the past, and even statistically, there is a group of three drivers that stand above all the rest: Fangio, Clark and Ascari. They had huge percentages of fastest laps, wins and pole positions.

The kind of Fangio-like dominance has been repeated, as far as my calculation goes, only with Schumacher (the first coming).

About today's drivers, Alonso and Vettel stand, I think, above the rest. Alonso is colder, more calculating and less emotional than Vettel; he is also, it seems to me, more persistent than most current drivers. He is perhaps a better overall driver, but he is not as fast over one lap. I may well be mistaken, of course. Hamilton is super-fast on his day, Raikkonen is fast enough, Massa has shown that he can be a champion. Button is an interesting case.

#91 jrg19

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 20:49

Did Alonsos rating drop when he moved back to Renault in 2008, it seems people rate drivers on there cars.

#92 Kyo

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 20:55

I count two retirements each. Fangio in GB and Switzerland, Farina in France and Monaco.

So why did Fangio not wipe the floor with Farina if he were "one class above the rest"?

Farina was even 5 years older, clocking at no less than 44 years (!!!), yet he beat Fangio.

So you should learn how to count again. Fangio had 3 retirements GB, Switzerland and Italy. Farina 2. Fangio had 4 poles, Farina 2. Fangio won every race he finished that year.

and again "ohh god, we are discussing pace here not why a or b won or who is better overall. Farina won 1950 because he had fewer retirements not because he had a better race pace than Fangio."

Just to complement if it wasn't already very clear. After Pique's crash in the beginning of the 1987 championship for example he was always lapping 0.5+ seconds slower than Mansell. Mansell had a much better pace that year but still lost the championship. There are many factors that will lead someone to win a championship and pace is only one of than. But in this topic we are discussing only about pace, not others factors that lead someone to win championships.

#93 MikeV1987

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 21:17

Over 1 lap and race distance, not all drivers but the current ones I see the most. By the looks of teams like Merc this list will probably change by the end of the season for me.

Class A: Vettel/Hamilton/Raikkonen/Alonso - the alpha dogs, fast... period.

Class B: Rosberg/Webber/Massa/Button/Perez/Sutil/Hulk/Maldonado/Grosjean - drivers who I think are fast, given the right circumstances. (Fastest car, weather, best strategy, etc)

Class C: Others: Unimpressed or haven't really payed attention to them as much.

Edited by MikeV1987, 31 May 2013 - 22:57.


#94 PurpleHam

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 21:33

I have no idea which one of these 2 is more wrong. Hamilton being atm fastest (and that based on what? that he had plenty of WDC cars and won only 1? by quite a luck)

or 2nd and not mentioning Fangio, Mansell, Prost, Clark? well they were pretty amazing as well, and IT IS SILLY to put Hamilton with them in one line

If he never wins another title, he still is one of the fastest drivers there has ever been, and has as much talent as any driver that has ever sat in an F1 car.

The sooner people like you accept this, the sooner we can all move on...

#95 George Costanza

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 21:56

Good replies going here.

I'd argue Jarno Trulli could be absoutely quick on his time. Monaco 2000 and 2004 were prime examples.

#96 ANF

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 22:08

Pace and speed over half a lap until they crash.

Class A
Grosjean, Hamilton, Maldonado, Vettel

Class B
Alonso, Bianchi, Hülkenberg, Massa, Rosberg

Class C
Bottas, van der Garde, Gutiérrez, Pérez, Räikkönen, Pic, Ricciardo, Sutil, Vergne, Webber

Class D
Button, Chilton, di Resta

#97 ZooL

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 22:13

Do it in classes; for example: Class A: Senna, Schumacher, Hakkinen, Vettel, Jim Clark, Juan Manuel Fangio. Of those, in equal cars, I believe Ayrton is the fastest of all.

Now Current: Class A: Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton, Rosberg and Kimi.

I think that class is OK although I would rank Rosberg at the end of the season as he is being judged against a guy who has only been with the team for 5 minutes...

#98 holiday

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 23:01

So you should learn how to count again. Fangio had 3 retirements GB, Switzerland and Italy. Farina 2. Fangio had 4 poles, Farina 2. Fangio won every race he finished that year.


Fangio actually retired in Italy when he was behind the leading Farina (after lap 21 Farina stayed in the lead).

But keep on living in your parallel universe where you make yourself believe that you can actually separate pure pace from overall speed and racecraft. :wave:


#99 Winter98

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 23:56

In terms of race pace Alonso fully deserves to be equal with Fangio, Clark, A. Senna, M. Schumacher and Prost.


Alonso has been beaten consistently by Vettel, so he has a very long way to go to be considered in that company.

Edited by Winter98, 31 May 2013 - 23:56.


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#100 George Costanza

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 01:55

Alonso has been beaten consistently by Vettel, so he has a very long way to go to be considered in that company.



Put Fernando in equal cars, I'd be sure he comes on top and beats Seb.