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Rank the drivers in outright pace and speed.


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#101 Kyo

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 04:24

But keep on living in your parallel universe where you make yourself believe that you can actually separate pure pace from overall speed and racecraft. :wave:

And it seems you can't read too since I have never separated pace from overall speed, what I did was separate pace from number of points scored in a championship which you seem incapable of doing.



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#102 SpaMaster

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 04:48

If he never wins another title, he still is one of the fastest drivers there has ever been, and has as much talent as any driver that has ever sat in an F1 car.

The sooner people like you accept this, the sooner we can all move on...

The longer you make statements like this, the longer people would be stuck on this silliness..

#103 Kingshark

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 07:47

:up: Take Mansell. In his winning years 1985-1992, he won just as many GPs as Prost or Senna did (around 30) and he had no better machinery overall and no slouches as team-mates, either. Still, he is considered by many like a George Harrison, below the uber-talents of Alain McCartney and Ayrton Lennon. How come then he was just as successful in terms of GP wins?

Prost destroyed Mansell when they were teammates in 1990, and Mansell also had the best car in 1986 yet Prost beat him to the championship. Nuff' said, Mansell isn't even in the same breath as Prost.

#104 oldracer1957

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 08:00

Above Class A: I will have to go with Hamilton on this one.
Reason: No matter good car or bad car... on raw pace (without team screw ups) Hamilton has always been in Q3 these last 3 years since the 27th of April 2010. Something neither Alonso, Vettel, Webber, Button, Rosberg or Schumacher have achieved.

Class A: Vettel, Alonso, Raikonnen

Class B: Rosberg (with Rosberg perhaps even being Class these last 3 races), Button, Webber, Grosjean, Bianchi...

Edited by oldracer1957, 01 June 2013 - 08:02.


#105 mnmracer

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 08:02

Put Fernando in equal cars, I'd be sure he comes on top and beats Seb.

Bold statement.
You'd have thought people learned after "I'd be sure Hamilton's going to destroy Rosberg".

#106 undersquare

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 08:22

Bold statement.
You'd have thought people learned after "I'd be sure Hamilton's going to destroy Rosberg".

Yep, they are small margins. On 'outright pace' Webber has beaten Vettel, Massa has beaten Raikonnen and Alonso, Rosberg has beaten Hamilton.

For me it's probably between Sebi and Lewis atm, though I'd like to see Sebi in some other car, but I reckon in the same team none of them would be consistently on top.

It's a nonsense to compare eras, but fwiw I think all these guys would thrash Senna - be faster and fall off less. Every sport moves forward over time.

Edited by undersquare, 01 June 2013 - 08:23.


#107 Watkins74

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 08:41

Yep, they are small margins. On 'outright pace' Webber has beaten Vettel, Massa has beaten Raikonnen and Alonso, Rosberg has beaten Hamilton.

For me it's probably between Sebi and Lewis atm, though I'd like to see Sebi in some other car, but I reckon in the same team none of them would be consistently on top.

It's a nonsense to compare eras, but fwiw I think all these guys would thrash Senna - be faster and fall off less. Every sport moves forward over time.

I was watching F1 during Senna's career. To be honest I didn't really like him as a person (his public persona) but to say these guys would "thrash" him is comical.

#108 undersquare

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 08:55

I was watching F1 during Senna's career. To be honest I didn't really like him as a person (his public persona) but to say these guys would "thrash" him is comical.

Dude we all watched. To say it's comical is risible :p . Can you name ONE sport where (say) the world record hasn't improved in the last 25 years? It would be like Carl Lewis vs Usain Bolt.

#109 sopa

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 09:11

Dude we all watched. To say it's comical is risible :p . Can you name ONE sport where (say) the world record hasn't improved in the last 25 years? It would be like Carl Lewis vs Usain Bolt.


I am sure some of the DDR drug athletes still hold some world records.:D

#110 Sakae

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 09:30

Well,we can certainly say that he was fastest in GP2 etc.. Who can dispute this.?? Anyone.??

When I was a young men, I misbehave from time to time, caused grief to my parents, but I changed, and I am a different person today. Vettel changed too. Hamilton fame is a myth perpetuated by people who need it, however based on his performance of past several years, he has a long way to prove that he even belongs to the same category as top drivers. No offense.

#111 ElAbuelo

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 09:46

Class A+ (can win with ANY car and out qualified team mate always)
Alonso (Fast with ANY car at 1 lap or race distance)

Class A (Can win with a good car. Outqualified team mate sometimes):
Hamilton, Rosberg, Kimi, Bianchi

Class B (can win with the faster car. Tied with team mate) :
Button, Massa Webber, Vettel (Toro Rosso was the faster car in Monza.. See Bourdais results)




#112 P123

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 09:49

Dude we all watched. To say it's comical is risible :p . Can you name ONE sport where (say) the world record hasn't improved in the last 25 years? It would be like Carl Lewis vs Usain Bolt.


Yeah, but drivers are limited by how fast their car can go, not how fast their legs can run. :D Also, comparing F1 between eras is difficult due the the vast changes in chassis. I wouldn't expect the level of skill to be any different, but preparation will have advanced, for both car and driver.

#113 mnmracer

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 10:28

Class A+ (can win with ANY car and out qualified team mate always)
Alonso (Fast with ANY car at 1 lap or race distance)

Class A (Can win with a good car. Outqualified team mate sometimes):
Hamilton, Rosberg, Kimi, Bianchi

Class B (can win with the faster car. Tied with team mate) :
Button, Massa Webber, Vettel (Toro Rosso was the faster car in Monza.. See Bourdais results)

The delusion of some people :lol:

#114 SpaMaster

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 10:36

Class A+ (can win with ANY car and out qualified team mate always)
Alonso (Fast with ANY car at 1 lap or race distance)

Class A (Can win with a good car. Outqualified team mate sometimes):
Hamilton, Rosberg, Kimi, Bianchi

Class B (can win with the faster car. Tied with team mate) :
Button, Massa Webber, Vettel (Toro Rosso was the faster car in Monza.. See Bourdais results)

It looks like the winner was picked first and then the criteria were formed around it!

#115 skywing

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 10:37

It looks like the winner was picked first and then the criteria were formed around it!

And even then the drivers don't match the criterias. :drunk:

#116 undersquare

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 10:44

Yeah, but drivers are limited by how fast their car can go, not how fast their legs can run. :D Also, comparing F1 between eras is difficult due the the vast changes in chassis. I wouldn't expect the level of skill to be any different, but preparation will have advanced, for both car and driver.

Well are Carl Lewis' genes less effective than Bolt's or is it the preparation? I'd think it's more preparation than genetics, and driving will be the same. So yeah this is why the comparison is impossible between eras. If you watch the old races and the error rates, the old heroes are like Grosjean on a bad day :D . You'd have to make a clone of Senna and bring him up the modern way. Then obviously you'd be discounting Senna's beach running and anything else he did better than his rivals at the time.

Anyway IMO there can be no modern Senna, because there's not one superstar to bestride the sport but 4 or 5 incredible talents mixing it up.

#117 ElAbuelo

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 10:51

Everyone HERE have its own opinion..
I have mine.

Pd: Hamilton and team directors thinks like me:
Alonso its the fastest and more complete driver racing this season.

In 2009, i do a clasification of all drivers in my own:
Give point for: Victory, Podium, Pole and fastest lap
Give poins too for champion, but dependent on races and rivals
( racing with other 6 champions 20 races and win its more dificult that race without oposition 10 races)

Efectivity= points/races (no points for champion added)

(driver name, points | points/race | champion titles)

1 Juan Manuel Fangio 1697 | 33.27 | 5
2 Alberto Ascari 901 | 26.50 | 2
3 Michael Schumacher 6501 | 26.00 | 7
4 Jim Clark 1743 | 23.88 | 2
5 Ayrton Senna 3195 | 19.72 | 3
6 Alain Prost 3810 | 18.86 | 4
7 Jackie Stewart 1870 | 18.70 | 3
8 Lewis Hamilton 898 | 17.61 | 1
9 Stirling Moss 1111 | 16.58 | 0
10 Damon Hill 1639 | 13.43 | 1
11 Nino Farina 470 | 13.43 | 1
12 Nigel Mansell 2330 | 12.20 | 1
13 Fernando Alonso 1686 | 12.13 | 2
14 Niki Lauda 1934 | 10.93 | 3
15 Tony Brooks 418 | 10.72 | 0
16 Kimi Räikkonen 1639 | 10.51 | 1
17 Oscar Gonzalez 269 | 10.35 | 0
18 Mika Häkkinen 1665 | 10.09 | 2
19 Nélson Piquet 1892 | 9.14 | 3
20 James Hunt 808 | 8.69 | 1
21 Jack Brabham 1076 | 8.41 | 3
22 Felipe Massa 917 | 7.91 | 0
23 Jochen Rindt 483 | 7.79 | 1
24 Juan Pablo Montoya 722 | 7.60 | 0
25 Mike Hawthorn 355 | 7.55 | 1
26 Alan Jones 883 | 7.55 | 1
27 Jody Scheckter 850 | 7.52 | 1
28 Carlos Reutemann 1086 | 7.44 | 0
29 Emerson Fittipaldi 1086 | 7.29 | 2
30 Sebastian Vettel 305 | 7.26 | 0
31 Ronnie Peterson 839 | 6.82 | 0
32 Mario Andretti 890 | 6.79 | 1
33 Phil Hill 345 | 6.63 | 1
34 Denny Hulme 743 | 6.63 | 1
35 Gilles Villeneuve 448 | 6.59 | 0
36 Graham Hill 1135 | 6.34 | 2
37 Jacky Ickx 729 | 5.98 | 0
38 Wolfgang von Trips 165 | 5.69 | 0
39 Peter Revson 185 | 5.61 | 0
40 David Coulthard 1348 | 5.46 | 0
41 John Surtees 590 | 5.22 | 1
42 Jacques Villeneuve 854 | 5.18 | 1
43 Gerhard Berger 1061 | 5.05 | 0
44 Dan Gurney 411 | 4.72 | 0
45 Rubens Barrichello 1315 | 4.58 | 0
46 Bruce McLaren 472 | 4.54 | 0
47 Didier Pironi 305 | 4.24 | 0
48 Clay Regazzoni 569 | 4.09 | 0
49 René Arnoux 672 | 4.07 | 0
50 François Cévert 182 | 3.79 | 0

Remember its from 2009..
Then i added champion points, and recalculate points/races

1 Juan Manuel Fangio 2872 | 56.31 | 5
2 Alberto Ascari 1451 | 42.68 | 2
3 Michael Schumacher 10001 | 40.00 | 7
4 Jim Clark 2468 | 33.81 | 2
5 Jackie Stewart 3095 | 30.95 | 3
6 Alain Prost 5835 | 28.89 | 4
7 Ayrton Senna 4670 | 28.83 | 3
8 Lewis Hamilton 1398 | 27.41 | 1
9 Fernando Alonso 2811 | 20.22 | 2
10 Nino Farina 695 | 19.86 | 1
11 Niki Lauda 3484 | 19.68 | 3
12 Damon Hill 2114 | 17.33 | 1
13 Stirling Moss 1111 | 16.58 | 0
14 Jack Brabham 2051 | 16.02 | 3
15 Nélson Piquet 3292 | 15.90 | 3
16 Jochen Rindt 983 | 15.85 | 1
17 Mika Häkkinen 2590 | 15.70 | 2
18 Nigel Mansell 2805 | 14.69 | 1
19 Mike Hawthorn 680 | 14.47 | 1
20 James Hunt 1333 | 14.33 | 1
21 Kimi Räikkonen 2139 | 13.71 | 1
22 Emerson Fittipaldi 1961 | 13.16 | 2
23 Phil Hill 645 | 12.40 | 1
24 Jody Scheckter 1350 | 11.95 | 1
25 Alan Jones 1383 | 11.82 | 1
26 Mario Andretti 1415 | 10.80 | 1
27 Tony Brooks 418 | 10.72 | 0
28 Graham Hill 1885 | 10.53 | 2
29 Denny Hulme 1168 | 10.43 | 1
30 Oscar Gonzalez 269 | 10.35 | 0
31 Jacques Villeneuve 1354 | 8.21 | 1
32 John Surtees 915 | 8.10 | 1
33 Felipe Massa 917 | 7.91 | 0
34 Juan Pablo Montoya 722 | 7.60 | 0
35 Carlos Reutemann 1086 | 7.44 | 0
36 Keke Rosberg 948 | 7.41 | 1
37 Sebastian Vettel 305 | 7.26 | 0
38 Ronnie Peterson 839 | 6.82 | 0
39 Gilles Villeneuve 448 | 6.59 | 0
40 Jenson Button 1115 | 6.52 | 1
41 Jacky Ickx 729 | 5.98 | 0
42 Wolfgang von Trips 165 | 5.69 | 0
43 Peter Revson 185 | 5.61 | 0
44 David Coulthard 1348 | 5.46 | 0
45 Gerhard Berger 1061 | 5.05 | 0
46 Dan Gurney 411 | 4.72 | 0
47 Rubens Barrichello 1315 | 4.58 | 0
48 Bruce McLaren 472 | 4.54 | 0
49 Didier Pironi 305 | 4.24 | 0
50 Clay Regazzoni 569 | 4.09 | 0

An finaly, only points:
Michael Schumacher 10001 | 40.00 | 7
2 Alain Prost 5835 | 28.89 | 4
3 Ayrton Senna 4670 | 28.83 | 3
4 Niki Lauda 3484 | 19.68 | 3
5 Nélson Piquet 3292 | 15.90 | 3
6 Jackie Stewart 3095 | 30.95 | 3
7 Juan Manuel Fangio 2872 | 56.31 | 5
8 Fernando Alonso 2811 | 20.22 | 2
9 Nigel Mansell 2805 | 14.69 | 1
10 Mika Häkkinen 2590 | 15.70 | 2
11 Jim Clark 2468 | 33.81 | 2
12 Kimi Räikkonen 2139 | 13.71 | 1
13 Damon Hill 2114 | 17.33 | 1
14 Jack Brabham 2051 | 16.02 | 3
15 Emerson Fittipaldi 1961 | 13.16 | 2
16 Graham Hill 1885 | 10.53 | 2
17 Alberto Ascari 1451 | 42.68 | 2
18 Mario Andretti 1415 | 10.80 | 1
19 Lewis Hamilton 1398 | 27.41 | 1
20 Alan Jones 1383 | 11.82 | 1
21 Jacques Villeneuve 1354 | 8.21 | 1
22 Jody Scheckter 1350 | 11.95 | 1
23 David Coulthard 1348 | 5.46 | 0
24 James Hunt 1333 | 14.33 | 1
25 Rubens Barrichello 1315 | 4.58 | 0
26 Denny Hulme 1168 | 10.43 | 1
27 Jenson Button 1115 | 6.52 | 1
28 Stirling Moss 1111 | 16.58 | 0
29 Carlos Reutemann 1086 | 7.44 | 0
30 Gerhard Berger 1061 | 5.05 | 0
31 Jochen Rindt 983 | 15.85 | 1
32 Keke Rosberg 948 | 7.41 | 1
33 Felipe Massa 917 | 7.91 | 0
34 John Surtees 915 | 8.10 | 1
35 Ronnie Peterson 839 | 6.82 | 0
36 Jacky Ickx 729 | 5.98 | 0
37 Riccardo Patrese 723 | 2.81 | 0
38 Juan Pablo Montoya 722 | 7.60 | 0
39 Nino Farina 695 | 19.86 | 1
40 Mike Hawthorn 680 | 14.47 | 1
41 René Arnoux 672 | 4.07 | 0
42 Jacques Laffite 661 | 3.67 | 0
43 Phil Hill 645 | 12.40 | 1
44 Ralf Schumacher 608 | 3.36 | 0
45 Clay Regazzoni 569 | 4.09 | 0
46 Michele Alboreto 495 | 2.30 | 0
47 Bruce McLaren 472 | 4.54 | 0
48 John Watson 465 | 3.02 | 0
49 Eddie Irvine 461 | 3.11 | 0
50 Gilles Villeneuve 448 | 6.59 | 0


must uptade (repeat, it's from Dec, 2009)

Edited by ElAbuelo, 01 June 2013 - 11:12.


#118 mnmracer

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 11:03

Pd: Hamilton and team directors thinks like me:
Alonso its the fastest and more complete driver racing this season.

Double incorrect, case 1: Team directors have not voted this season.
Double incorrect, case 2: Team directors have voted Vettel as the best driver of the season just as often as they have Alonso.

Do not insult Hamilton and the team bosses by saying they think like you.
You can have your opinion, but no one with any credibility even remotely shares your classification, and excuses for it, of Vettel.

Edited by mnmracer, 01 June 2013 - 11:04.


#119 motorhead

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 11:31

Hamilton is up there, almost 3 years consecutively into Q3.


Put him in the Williams or Caterham and the statistics would be gone....he has always had a car capable of doing Q3. Rosberg hasn´t had a possibility to drive a top 3 car before this year and look what is happening - Rosberg is driving poles and winning. Hamilton is good not god...

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#120 RSNS

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 11:48

Everyone HERE have its own opinion..
I have mine.

Pd: Hamilton and team directors thinks like me:
Alonso its the fastest and more complete driver racing this season.

In 2009, i do a clasification of all drivers in my own:
Give point for: Victory, Podium, Pole and fastest lap
Give poins too for champion, but dependent on races and rivals
( racing with other 6 champions 20 races and win its more dificult that race without oposition 10 races)

Efectivity= points/races (no points for champion added)

(driver name, points | points/race | champion titles)

1 Juan Manuel Fangio 1697 | 33.27 | 5
2 Alberto Ascari 901 | 26.50 | 2
3 Michael Schumacher 6501 | 26.00 | 7
4 Jim Clark 1743 | 23.88 | 2
5 Ayrton Senna 3195 | 19.72 | 3
6 Alain Prost 3810 | 18.86 | 4
7 Jackie Stewart 1870 | 18.70 | 3
8 Lewis Hamilton 898 | 17.61 | 1
9 Stirling Moss 1111 | 16.58 | 0
10 Damon Hill 1639 | 13.43 | 1
11 Nino Farina 470 | 13.43 | 1
12 Nigel Mansell 2330 | 12.20 | 1
13 Fernando Alonso 1686 | 12.13 | 2
14 Niki Lauda 1934 | 10.93 | 3
15 Tony Brooks 418 | 10.72 | 0
16 Kimi Räikkonen 1639 | 10.51 | 1
17 Oscar Gonzalez 269 | 10.35 | 0
18 Mika Häkkinen 1665 | 10.09 | 2
19 Nélson Piquet 1892 | 9.14 | 3
20 James Hunt 808 | 8.69 | 1
21 Jack Brabham 1076 | 8.41 | 3
22 Felipe Massa 917 | 7.91 | 0
23 Jochen Rindt 483 | 7.79 | 1
24 Juan Pablo Montoya 722 | 7.60 | 0
25 Mike Hawthorn 355 | 7.55 | 1
26 Alan Jones 883 | 7.55 | 1
27 Jody Scheckter 850 | 7.52 | 1
28 Carlos Reutemann 1086 | 7.44 | 0
29 Emerson Fittipaldi 1086 | 7.29 | 2
30 Sebastian Vettel 305 | 7.26 | 0
31 Ronnie Peterson 839 | 6.82 | 0
32 Mario Andretti 890 | 6.79 | 1
33 Phil Hill 345 | 6.63 | 1
34 Denny Hulme 743 | 6.63 | 1
35 Gilles Villeneuve 448 | 6.59 | 0
36 Graham Hill 1135 | 6.34 | 2
37 Jacky Ickx 729 | 5.98 | 0
38 Wolfgang von Trips 165 | 5.69 | 0
39 Peter Revson 185 | 5.61 | 0
40 David Coulthard 1348 | 5.46 | 0
41 John Surtees 590 | 5.22 | 1
42 Jacques Villeneuve 854 | 5.18 | 1
43 Gerhard Berger 1061 | 5.05 | 0
44 Dan Gurney 411 | 4.72 | 0
45 Rubens Barrichello 1315 | 4.58 | 0
46 Bruce McLaren 472 | 4.54 | 0
47 Didier Pironi 305 | 4.24 | 0
48 Clay Regazzoni 569 | 4.09 | 0
49 René Arnoux 672 | 4.07 | 0
50 François Cévert 182 | 3.79 | 0

Remember its from 2009..
Then i added champion points, and recalculate points/races

1 Juan Manuel Fangio 2872 | 56.31 | 5
2 Alberto Ascari 1451 | 42.68 | 2
3 Michael Schumacher 10001 | 40.00 | 7
4 Jim Clark 2468 | 33.81 | 2
5 Jackie Stewart 3095 | 30.95 | 3
6 Alain Prost 5835 | 28.89 | 4
7 Ayrton Senna 4670 | 28.83 | 3
8 Lewis Hamilton 1398 | 27.41 | 1
9 Fernando Alonso 2811 | 20.22 | 2
10 Nino Farina 695 | 19.86 | 1
11 Niki Lauda 3484 | 19.68 | 3
12 Damon Hill 2114 | 17.33 | 1
13 Stirling Moss 1111 | 16.58 | 0
14 Jack Brabham 2051 | 16.02 | 3
15 Nélson Piquet 3292 | 15.90 | 3
16 Jochen Rindt 983 | 15.85 | 1
17 Mika Häkkinen 2590 | 15.70 | 2
18 Nigel Mansell 2805 | 14.69 | 1
19 Mike Hawthorn 680 | 14.47 | 1
20 James Hunt 1333 | 14.33 | 1
21 Kimi Räikkonen 2139 | 13.71 | 1
22 Emerson Fittipaldi 1961 | 13.16 | 2
23 Phil Hill 645 | 12.40 | 1
24 Jody Scheckter 1350 | 11.95 | 1
25 Alan Jones 1383 | 11.82 | 1
26 Mario Andretti 1415 | 10.80 | 1
27 Tony Brooks 418 | 10.72 | 0
28 Graham Hill 1885 | 10.53 | 2
29 Denny Hulme 1168 | 10.43 | 1
30 Oscar Gonzalez 269 | 10.35 | 0
31 Jacques Villeneuve 1354 | 8.21 | 1
32 John Surtees 915 | 8.10 | 1
33 Felipe Massa 917 | 7.91 | 0
34 Juan Pablo Montoya 722 | 7.60 | 0
35 Carlos Reutemann 1086 | 7.44 | 0
36 Keke Rosberg 948 | 7.41 | 1
37 Sebastian Vettel 305 | 7.26 | 0
38 Ronnie Peterson 839 | 6.82 | 0
39 Gilles Villeneuve 448 | 6.59 | 0
40 Jenson Button 1115 | 6.52 | 1
41 Jacky Ickx 729 | 5.98 | 0
42 Wolfgang von Trips 165 | 5.69 | 0
43 Peter Revson 185 | 5.61 | 0
44 David Coulthard 1348 | 5.46 | 0
45 Gerhard Berger 1061 | 5.05 | 0
46 Dan Gurney 411 | 4.72 | 0
47 Rubens Barrichello 1315 | 4.58 | 0
48 Bruce McLaren 472 | 4.54 | 0
49 Didier Pironi 305 | 4.24 | 0
50 Clay Regazzoni 569 | 4.09 | 0

An finaly, only points:
Michael Schumacher 10001 | 40.00 | 7
2 Alain Prost 5835 | 28.89 | 4
3 Ayrton Senna 4670 | 28.83 | 3
4 Niki Lauda 3484 | 19.68 | 3
5 Nélson Piquet 3292 | 15.90 | 3
6 Jackie Stewart 3095 | 30.95 | 3
7 Juan Manuel Fangio 2872 | 56.31 | 5
8 Fernando Alonso 2811 | 20.22 | 2
9 Nigel Mansell 2805 | 14.69 | 1
10 Mika Häkkinen 2590 | 15.70 | 2
11 Jim Clark 2468 | 33.81 | 2
12 Kimi Räikkonen 2139 | 13.71 | 1
13 Damon Hill 2114 | 17.33 | 1
14 Jack Brabham 2051 | 16.02 | 3
15 Emerson Fittipaldi 1961 | 13.16 | 2
16 Graham Hill 1885 | 10.53 | 2
17 Alberto Ascari 1451 | 42.68 | 2
18 Mario Andretti 1415 | 10.80 | 1
19 Lewis Hamilton 1398 | 27.41 | 1
20 Alan Jones 1383 | 11.82 | 1
21 Jacques Villeneuve 1354 | 8.21 | 1
22 Jody Scheckter 1350 | 11.95 | 1
23 David Coulthard 1348 | 5.46 | 0
24 James Hunt 1333 | 14.33 | 1
25 Rubens Barrichello 1315 | 4.58 | 0
26 Denny Hulme 1168 | 10.43 | 1
27 Jenson Button 1115 | 6.52 | 1
28 Stirling Moss 1111 | 16.58 | 0
29 Carlos Reutemann 1086 | 7.44 | 0
30 Gerhard Berger 1061 | 5.05 | 0
31 Jochen Rindt 983 | 15.85 | 1
32 Keke Rosberg 948 | 7.41 | 1
33 Felipe Massa 917 | 7.91 | 0
34 John Surtees 915 | 8.10 | 1
35 Ronnie Peterson 839 | 6.82 | 0
36 Jacky Ickx 729 | 5.98 | 0
37 Riccardo Patrese 723 | 2.81 | 0
38 Juan Pablo Montoya 722 | 7.60 | 0
39 Nino Farina 695 | 19.86 | 1
40 Mike Hawthorn 680 | 14.47 | 1
41 René Arnoux 672 | 4.07 | 0
42 Jacques Laffite 661 | 3.67 | 0
43 Phil Hill 645 | 12.40 | 1
44 Ralf Schumacher 608 | 3.36 | 0
45 Clay Regazzoni 569 | 4.09 | 0
46 Michele Alboreto 495 | 2.30 | 0
47 Bruce McLaren 472 | 4.54 | 0
48 John Watson 465 | 3.02 | 0
49 Eddie Irvine 461 | 3.11 | 0
50 Gilles Villeneuve 448 | 6.59 | 0


must uptade (repeat, it's from Dec, 2009)


A cluster analysis I performed some years ago gives credence to the idea that Fangio, Ascari, Clark and also Shumacher (in that order) were head and shoulders above the rest. I have great respect for Alonso, but I wouldn't go as far as you concerning his status.



#121 aliasj

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 11:56

ALL TIME.

Qualifying (Outright Pace).
1. Ayrton SENNA (65)
2. Jim CLARK (33)
3. Juan Manuel FANGIO (29)
4. Michael SCHUMACHER (69)
5. Nigel MANSELL (32)
6. Nelson PIQUET (24)
7. Niki LAUDA (24)
8. Sebastian VETTEL (38)
9. Alain PROST (33)
10. Lewis HAMILTON (27)
11. Fernando ALONSO (22)
12. Mario ANDRETTI (18)
13. Kimi RAIKKONEN (16)
14. Rene ARNOUX (18)
15. Jackie STEWART (17)

Race (Pace and Strategy).
1. Michael SCHUMACHER (91)
2. Alain PROST (51)
3. Juan Manuel FANGIO (24)
4. Aryton SENNA (41)
5. Fernando ALONSO (32)
6. Jackie STEWART (27)
7. Jim CLARK (25)
8. Niki LAUDA (25)
9. Nelson PIQUET (23)
10. Sebastian VETTEL (28)
11. Nigel MANSELL (31)
12. Lewis HAMILTON (21)
13. Mika HAKKINEN (20)
14. Kimi RAIKKONEN (20)
15. Sterling MOSS (16)

Prestige.
1. Juan Manuel FANGIO
2. Aryton SENNA
3. Michael SCHUMACHER
4. Alain PROST
5. Jim CLARK
6. Jackie STEWART
7. Niki LAUDA
8. Gilles VILLENEUVE
9. Sterling MOSS
10. Fernando ALONSO
11. Emerson FITIPALDI
12. Nelson PIQUET
13. Mario ANDRETTI
14. Jack BRABHAM
15. Mika HAKKINEN

Edited by aliasj, 01 June 2013 - 12:45.


#122 ElAbuelo

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 11:58

Maybe my english is worst of i think.. ( it's bad, i know)

I want to say that Alonso IS the faster and more complete driver currently racing (this season, not of all time)


Double incorrect, case 2: Team directors have voted Vettel as the best driver of the season just as often as they have Alonso.


10 Best drivers 2008-2012 (sum of all team director points of each year)
1- Alonso 775
2- Vettel 772
3- Hamilton 648
4- Button 457
5- Webber 312
6- Raikkonen 233
7- Kubica 189
8- Rosberg 188
9- Massa 149
10- Hulkenberg 67

rest:
Sutil 49
Barrichello 46
Di Resta 44
Kovalainen 36
Perez 30
Schumacher 23
Glock 13
Heidfeld 4
Trulli 3

Data used:
2008
1) Lewis Hamilton - 88 pts
2) Felipe Massa - 86 pts
3=) Fernando Alonso - 50 pts
3=) Robert Kubica - 50 pts
5) Sebastian Vettel - 37 pts
6) Kimi Raikkonen - 27 pts
7) Timo Glock - 13 pts
8) Heikki Kovalainen - 10 pts
9) Nick Heidfeld - 4 pts
10=) Adrian Sutil - 3 pts
10=) Jarno Trulli - 3 pts

2009
01. Sebastian Vettel 76
02. Jenson Button 67
03. Lewis Hamilton 65
04. Fernando Alonso 39
05. Rubens Barrichello 35
06= Kimi Raikkonen 30
06= Mark Webber 30
08. Felipe Massa 19
09. Robert Kubica 10
10. Adrian Sutil 8

2010
1. Alonso 229
2. Vettel 220
3. Hamilton 196
4. Webber 146
5. Kubica 129
6. Button 86
7. Rosberg 68
8. Hulkenberg 17
9. Massa 17
10. Barrichello 11

2011
1. Vettel 241
2. Button 200
3. Alonso 188
4. Hamilton 122
5. Rosberg 90
6. Webber 70
7. Di Resta 44
8. Sutil 38
9. Kovalainen 26
10. Schumacher 23

2012
1. Fernando Alonso 269
2. Sebastian Vettel 198
3. Lewis Hamilton 177
4. Kimi Raikkonen 176
5. Jenson Button 104
6. Mark Webber 66
7. Nico Hulkenberg 50
8. Nico Rosberg 30
9. Sergio Perez 30
10. Felipe Massa 27

#123 mnmracer

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 12:01

Maybe my english is worst of i think.. ( it's bad, i know)

I want to say that Alonso IS the faster and more complete driver currently racing (this season, not of all time)

The comments you received were of your twisted assessment of Vettel.
As you posted yourself, the team directors do not in any way, shape or form share your opinion on that.

Edited by mnmracer, 01 June 2013 - 12:01.


#124 ElAbuelo

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 12:18

The comments you received were of your twisted assessment of Vettel.
As you posted yourself, the team directors do not in any way, shape or form share your opinion on that.


My opinion on Vettel is MINE

I think Vettel is overrated.

Time will tell..

#125 RockyRaccoon68

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 12:22

My opinion is ever changing and will continue to change but a few themes in my beliefs over the last while are:

Vettel is better than I ever thought he was. The most impressive driver of 2013 so far.

Alonso is as good as I always thought, but not infallible like he appeared at some points last year.

Kimi is better than he appeared in his time at Ferrari, it just didn't click.

Lewis is really quick but based on performances from 2011 onwards you'd have to say he has never got on top of the Pirelli's over a race distance - there are races that are exceptions to this but looking at the general trend he's a massively quick and aggressive driver but not much of a thinker or long game player.

Rosberg is better than I thought.

Massa is still capable of being massively quick over a race but isn't able to manage a race in the same way the guys who are thriving in this era can.

Webber has got worse with every passing year since 2010, he only seems to show up for a few weekends each year, when he is strangely unbeatable.

Button is better than I gave him credit for, but his relative lack of outright pace is compensated for by the Pirelli era.

The rest? Who knows!

My opinion on Vettel is MINE

I think Vettel is overrated.

Time will tell..


I used to think the same man, but come on, he's proved all us doubters wrong recently.

Edited by RockyRaccoon68, 01 June 2013 - 12:23.


#126 Jimisgod

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 12:27

1. Alonso
= Kimi
= Lewis
= Vettel
5. Rosberg
6. Webber
7. Button
8. Perez (y)
9. Massa
10. Hulkenberg (y)

Can't be bothered ranking any more.

(Y) shows they are young and hard to determine, may improve.

#127 ebc

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 12:49

Right now i would say Vettel is fastest over one lap, next up Hamilton then Alonso, Raikkonen, Rosberg and Webber in the next group.

On race pace I would say that Alonso, Vettel and Raikkonen would be at a similar level with Hamilton just behind but ahead of the rest. Webber and Rosberg are super fast but not often enough, though Rosberg could prove me wrong if he continues to beat Hamilton.

Compared to previous generations I think F1 in these last few years has had the best group of drivers the sport has ever seen, I believe Vettel and Alonso are every bit as good as Senna and Prost with Raikkonen and Hamilton on a level above the likes of Mansell and Piquet. With Webber, Button, Rosberg and a few others we have the deepest pool of talent this sport has ever had.

#128 Shiroo

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 14:06

If he never wins another title, he still is one of the fastest drivers there has ever been, and has as much talent as any driver that has ever sat in an F1 car.

The sooner people like you accept this, the sooner we can all move on...

Yap, Hamilton is faster than Clark and Fangio... simply wow.

This topic is even more hilarious than I thought that it will be.

Edited by Shiroo, 01 June 2013 - 14:09.


#129 stillOrange

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 14:33

Yap, Hamilton is faster than Clark and Fangio... simply wow.

This topic is even more hilarious than I thought that it will be.

I think in all fairness this thread haven't been that bad.
You only got one Hamilton and one Alonso fan that have been claiming that their unpopular opinions are gospel.

Other than them I think it is pretty conclusive when it comes to current drivers tiers and groups.

#130 Lone

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 16:41

The best: Alonso and Räikkonen

Almost as good: Vettel and Rosberg

Not quite as good as the above: Hamilton

Future stars: Bianchi, Bottas and Hulkenberg

The rest: good but not as impressive as the ones above

Edited by Lone, 01 June 2013 - 16:42.


#131 2ms

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 17:47

The best: Alonso and Räikkonen

Almost as good: Vettel and Rosberg

Not quite as good as the above: Hamilton

Future stars: Bianchi, Bottas and Hulkenberg

The rest: good but not as impressive as the ones above


But when Hamilton was a rookie he was teammates with Alonso and beat him. You think Hamilton has gone downhill as a driver? Alonso's success was 05-06.

#132 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 18:00

Tier 1
Vettel
Raikkonen
Alonso

Tier 2
Rosberg
Hamilton
Webber
Button
Hulkenberg

Tier 3
Massa
Sutil
Perez
Grosjean
di Resta
Maldonado


As of the first six races of 2013 only.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 01 June 2013 - 18:05.


#133 Lone

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 18:07

But when Hamilton was a rookie he was teammates with Alonso and beat him. You think Hamilton has gone downhill as a driver? Alonso's success was 05-06.


No doubt Hamilton is fast but he's not as complete as Alonso and Räikkonen. Many belive he's the fastest, read the British media, but I don't believe that.







#134 Shiroo

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 18:13

I think in all fairness this thread haven't been that bad.
You only got one Hamilton and one Alonso fan that have been claiming that their unpopular opinions are gospel.

Other than them I think it is pretty conclusive when it comes to current drivers tiers and groups.

well depends. Some still claim that Hamilton, Alonso, Raikkonen and Vettel aren't top 4, well even biased fan need to say that they are. Some claim that Alonso is best, other Hamilton is class of the field. Well these 4 are best drivers atm, but they aren't THAT GOOD if we compare to some big names from other decades

Edited by Shiroo, 01 June 2013 - 18:14.


#135 KateLM

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 18:52

I have to say I've never bought into this "tier" stuff. It seems a very over-simplistic way to look at it. Form is not constant and you could move many drivers around from year-to-year or even race-to-race.

If I had the time, I could probably come up with a rough ranking of who I thought the drivers with the best outright pace were. But I don't think it would match my ranking of who I think the best drivers overall are. Pace is important but it's not the only thing to make a top driver.

#136 ebeneezer2

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 19:34

I don't quite get how so many people are putting Raikkonen in the top group, for some reason people seem to make excuses for him more than other drivers. He spent 2 and a half years being equally matched with Massa, then followed that by being outqualified 9 times by his rookie team mate last year - yet he's apparently as quick or quicker than all the other drivers?

I also don't get how Hamilton isn't in some people's top brackets - at least as quick as Alonso, definitely quicker than Kovalinen, and outqualifying Button in 75% of the races they were teammates, there were often circumstances for the other 25% as well - what has he got to do to be in the top tier...?

#137 MikeV1987

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 20:20

I don't quite get how so many people are putting Raikkonen in the top group, for some reason people seem to make excuses for him more than other drivers. He spent 2 and a half years being equally matched with Massa, then followed that by being outqualified 9 times by his rookie team mate last year - yet he's apparently as quick or quicker than all the other drivers?

I also don't get how Hamilton isn't in some people's top brackets - at least as quick as Alonso, definitely quicker than Kovalinen, and outqualifying Button in 75% of the races they were teammates, there were often circumstances for the other 25% as well - what has he got to do to be in the top tier...?


Honestly, I don't know how some people don't put Raikkonen in the top group, it boggles my mind.

#138 ArkZ

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 20:32

But when Hamilton was a rookie he was teammates with Alonso and beat him. You think Hamilton has gone downhill as a driver? Alonso's success was 05-06.


Many people opinion is that 2007 was Hamilton's best season ( until 2012 IMO), and Alonso's worst in his senior career. Surely Alonso improved since then , specially in Ferrari days from second half of 2010, his peak so far was in 2012 (his own statement). Alonso 2012 is in a different league compared to 2007.

Edited by ArkZ, 01 June 2013 - 20:33.


#139 PurpleHam

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 20:57

Yap, Hamilton is faster than Clark and Fangio... simply wow.

This topic is even more hilarious than I thought that it will be.

How do you know Fangio and Clark are faster?

You don't, it's an opinion, I gave mine, that is all...

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#140 SpaMaster

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 21:11

^ How did you come to the conclusion that Hamilton is faster than Fangio and Clark?

#141 RaikkonenZn

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 21:18

Tier 1
Vettel
Raikkonen
Alonso

Tier 2
Rosberg
Hamilton
Webber
Button
Hulkenberg

Tier 3
Massa
Sutil
Perez
Grosjean
di Resta
Maldonado


As of the first six races of 2013 only.


I agree with this - I would put Hamilton in the Tier 1 bracket as this is a thread asking for outright pace and speed!

I personally would have to say that outright pace and speed would be between Raikkonen, Hamilton, Vettel and Alonso - its very close between them. My personal favourite is Raikkonen because of what I've seen him do over the years and especially in 2005 when he use to qualify with a fair amount of fuel and still get pole or very near the front of the grid.

He got the stats to back him up in the current generation - lets not forget Kimi has 38 fastest laps, most fastest laps in season(10) TWICE equalling the record, had the most consecutive fastest laps in season twice as well, 4 lap records for circuits in the current calendar! Strange that nobodies mentioning this stuff when it comes to outright fastest? Just for fun - Kimi also has the fastest ever lap at Monaco - which I think a fair amount of us reckon is the somewhere near being the most difficult track to go fast at! But yeah each man to his own!

#142 noikeee

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 21:31

Personally I think Kimi's epic pace as of 2005 is a thing well of the past, I don't believe on outright laptime he can match Vettel, Alonso, and possibly others nowadays. However in terms of consistency and managing pace and tyres over a race he seems as strong or stronger than ever.

#143 skywing

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 21:37

I don't believe on outright laptime he can match Vettel, Alonso, and possibly others nowadays.

I respect your opinion but the fact that he is 6-0 in qualys against Grosjean(who despite his crashes is very fast over a lap) suggests that he has just as much outright pace as Vettel and Alonso.

#144 Kingshark

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 21:37

As you posted yourself, the team directors do not in any way, shape or form share your opinion on that.

Alonso was voted top driver by team managers in both 2010 and 2012.

He got the stats to back him up in the current generation - lets not forget Kimi has 38 fastest laps, most fastest laps in season(10) TWICE equalling the record, had the most consecutive fastest laps in season twice as well, 4 lap records for circuits in the current calendar! Strange that nobodies mentioning this stuff when it comes to outright fastest? Just for fun - Kimi also has the fastest ever lap at Monaco - which I think a fair amount of us reckon is the somewhere near being the most difficult track to go fast at! But yeah each man to his own

Fastest laps don't mean anything. Ayrton Senna only had 19 fastest laps in his whole career, is Raikkonen a faster driver than Senna was because he's had twice as many fastest laps?

#145 Jovanotti

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 21:40

Sorry to say, but what an utterly useless thread.

#146 Skinnyguy

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 21:42

Fastest laps don't mean anything.


Not anymore sadly. Last time they meant something was 2009.

#147 Skinnyguy

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 21:43

Sorry to say, but what an utterly useless thread.


:up: It´s calling for trouble.

#148 Cult

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 21:49

Hugely subjective but on one-lap pace:

Tier 1 - the best
Hamilton
Vettel
Rosberg

Tier 2 - very strong
Alonso
Raikkonen

Tier 3 - quick and consistent
Button
Hulkenberg
Ricciardo
Webber (only recently, used to be tier 2)

Tier 4 - solid, or quick but inconsistent
Di Resta
Massa
Perez
Grosjean
Maldonado

Tier 5 - not quite there yet/unproven
Sutil
Bottas
Vergne

Too early to say for the others. Sutil, Bottas and Vergne all belong in F1 though and have spells where they look good.

#149 Shiroo

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 21:50

How do you know Fangio and Clark are faster?

You don't, it's an opinion, I gave mine, that is all...

And how the heck 1 time WDC driver is faster than such people. He got his title more by luck than the skill, cause Massa should win it then (and as far as we see, Massa ain't the best driver, though he was quite better in pre 2009 era)? Heck, he even got once beaten by Button. And you wish to tell me that HE IS faster than Clark or Fangio was? No. Simply frickin no. I highly doubt that Hamilton would be even count as Top 6 of last 20 years.

Edited by Shiroo, 01 June 2013 - 21:55.


#150 SpaMaster

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 21:53

I respect your opinion but the fact that he is 6-0 in qualys against Grosjean(who despite his crashes is very fast over a lap) suggests that he has just as much outright pace as Vettel and Alonso.

Incidentally Lotus last year's cars were more difficult to heat-up the tyres than this year's. So, I don't think his qualy pace is as much down to his inherent pace, rather it is related to tyre-kind cars and his general driving style that is developed around not being too harsh on tyres. If he has a car that switches its tyres on nicely like the Red Bull or the 2008 McLaren, his qualy speed would be on the mark. That's pretty much the difference between last year's and this year's Lotus cars.