27 replies to this topic

[TJJohansen]

Having been to several historic races in Europe (and US) which feature old F1 machinery, I can't help but notice that there doesn't seem to be any kind of venue where old SCCA/ USAC/ CART cars get out and about. Apart from a couple that I seem to recall displayed at FoS some years ago. Is there no interest in these cars, or is it the exotic cocktails they drink that keep them away from being exercised? I'm sure they must have some value and are stored by owners around the US...

I think I once saw a short documentary about an old racecar Mario Andretti had driven in the early/ mid 60s, which was then restored to former glory, and MA had the chance to drive it again. But I have no idea if that was a one off thing, or if the car ended up in someone's vault later on.

As much as I love to see the March 761, Surtees TS16, BT44, FW07 and the like it would have been cool to see a couple of 1960s Watson Offy's, and perhaps some 1970s Penske and Eagle's.

T J

[paulhooft]

The movie youo are talking about is the IMAX movie Super Speedway.
For more info on old Indy cars have a look at:

http://www.milleroffy.com/

Paul Hooft, Netherlands

Having been to several historic races in Europe (and US) which feature old F1 machinery, I can't help but notice that there doesn't seem to be any kind of venue where old SCCA/ USAC/ CART cars get out and about. Apart from a couple that I seem to recall displayed at FoS some years ago. Is there no interest in these cars, or is it the exotic cocktails they drink that keep them away from being exercised? I'm sure they must have some value and are stored by owners around the US...

I think I once saw a short documentary about an old racecar Mario Andretti had driven in the early/ mid 60s, which was then restored to former glory, and MA had the chance to drive it again. But I have no idea if that was a one off thing, or if the car ended up in someone's vault later on.

As much as I love to see the March 761, Surtees TS16, BT44, FW07 and the like it would have been cool to see a couple of 1960s Watson Offy's, and perhaps some 1970s Penske and Eagle's.

T J

Edited by paulhooft, 03 June 2013 - 17:11.

[Rudernst]

Having been to several historic races in Europe (and US) which feature old F1 machinery, I can't help but notice that there doesn't seem to be any kind of venue where old SCCA/ USAC/ CART cars get out and about. Apart from a couple that I seem to recall displayed at FoS some years ago. Is there no interest in these cars, or is it the exotic cocktails they drink that keep them away from being exercised? I'm sure they must have some value and are stored by owners around the US...

I think I once saw a short documentary about an old racecar Mario Andretti had driven in the early/ mid 60s, which was then restored to former glory, and MA had the chance to drive it again. But I have no idea if that was a one off thing, or if the car ended up in someone's vault later on.

As much as I love to see the March 761, Surtees TS16, BT44, FW07 and the like it would have been cool to see a couple of 1960s Watson Offy's, and perhaps some 1970s Penske and Eagle's.

T J

You can run certain front engined Indycars with the HGPCA in class 8 for pre 1961 Tasman and Indycars, mainly because Indy counted towards the Drivers Championship for while in the 1950ies.
You also might get a run at certain VSCC Events in similar grids.

There is ONE car which gets entered with either Organisation every now and then, I think its a Watson, buuut then it might be a Kurtis...

Problem seems to be that the natural habitats of These cars are ovals.
Running These cars on ovals is not for amateurs, You run very quickly very Close to walls with few reference points tempting you to turn in too early and run out of road on the exit.
Plus, set up of these cars is and was veeeery critical if You want to race them properly at full possible speed and the necessary knowledge and Support is scarce especially for the older cars. Annnd You would need to find the tires..
Could all be done if You threw money and effort into this, a lot of both.
what running is done in the US for these cars is at slow pace behind pace cars for These reasons.

I suggested once that what works for Monaco and Le Mans would work for Indy, i.e that they should run a proper historic race event, Indy actually answered humble me and suggested that I should enter their Concours dElegance, how very thrilling

It was later quietly pointed out to me that I might underestimate the dangers of this.
I on the other hand had thought that if can handle a 3 litre F1 car and/or a historic Group C car, than I can get on top of an Indycar.
Weeell, not without practice and coaching it seems

I would enter my 1915 Stutz Bearcat if ever Indy puts on a historic race.
That would complete my personal Graham Hill Remembrance Historic Racing Big Three Roster..

If You factor in the more safety concious and less aggressive US concept of historic racing You can see why these cars seldom get raced, only demoed once in while.

Rudolf

Edited by Rudernst, 03 June 2013 - 15:43.

[Patrick Morgan]

There does seem to be something of a quite interest in Indycars in Europe brewing which is good. I've had a couple of people start to make noises about running them which would be great.

I'm not sure exactly what it is that hasn't grabbed people about these cars - the fuel might be a factor. In Europe for some reason methanol seems to be viewed as more dangerous than petrol which it is not. If anything it's safer but it does through up a host of different challenges as unlike petrol it works as a degreasing agent i.e. it has no lubricating properties at all, quite the reverse in fact and it has an unholy appetite for aluminium, o'rings, fuel cells and injectors. As long as you treat them right all this is easy to overcome.

For events like Goodwood it's true to say the later (mid 1980's onwards) cars are much harder to run than F1 cars but only because you have to que and start from a stand still. Temperature management is really difficult as there is no margin designed into them for standing starts. They also suffer from heat soak which can boil the fuel in the rails and lock the injectors shut. Lastly the bodywork is much tighter than that of a similar era F1 car as they run proper underwings and fully ducted coolers. You need an extra person with a bucket of water and some towels to throw over the bodywork to stop it burning. Anyone who has been at the top of Goodwood hill in the last 10 years will have seen my wife doing this most years.

Aside from that they are wonderful, powerful, good looking cars that go like hell on both road courses and ovals. They also sound very distinctive which is kind of lost on the TV. The whistle of the turbo coupled with a V8 is a unique sound. It's perfectly achievable to race these cars on road courses today, just a matter of getting enough people interested.

[rateus]

Apart from a couple that I seem to recall displayed at FoS some years ago.

Probably 2011, there was a whole section dedicated to indycars to commemorate 100 years of the Indianapolis 500. And as someone for whom the indy roadster is one of the most beautiful machines ever created, it was marvellous to see them running up the hill.

Photos (not mine) of what was present here: http://www.flickr.co...ndianapolis500/

[Pullman99]

The movie youo are talking about is the IMAX movie Super Speedway. For more info on old Indy cars have a look at:
Paul Hooft, Netherlands

Direct link to IMAX format film here:

Super Speedway IMAX link

Pretty nice quality, and a great little film, if you can get used to watching IMAX on a laptop!

Edited by Pullman99, 04 June 2013 - 07:47.

[Henri Greuter]

Having been to several historic races in Europe (and US) which feature old F1 machinery, I can't help but notice that there doesn't seem to be any kind of venue where old SCCA/ USAC/ CART cars get out and about. Apart from a couple that I seem to recall displayed at FoS some years ago. Is there no interest in these cars, or is it the exotic cocktails they drink that keep them away from being exercised? I'm sure they must have some value and are stored by owners around the US...

I think I once saw a short documentary about an old racecar Mario Andretti had driven in the early/ mid 60s, which was then restored to former glory, and MA had the chance to drive it again. But I have no idea if that was a one off thing, or if the car ended up in someone's vault later on.

As much as I love to see the March 761, Surtees TS16, BT44, FW07 and the like it would have been cool to see a couple of 1960s Watson Offy's, and perhaps some 1970s Penske and Eagle's.

T J

Difficulty for the really older cars is that most of them stayed in the USA. Only a relatively few cars left the USA, From the Roadster Era, I suspect that just about a handful, maybe 10 or so went outside the USA. I live in the Netherlands and a Dutch car museum has two Roadsters in their collection. But one is in bad shape and not very authentic anymore (though the authentic parts are part of one of the darkest pages in the entire Indy history) while the other one is told to be a Watson because it looks so much like a Watson but in fact it is a laydown chassis by Denny Moore. But of course promoting it as a Watson, the better known name, makes some sense.
Genuine Roadsters are really hard to find nowadays. Most of them have been accounted for by now. I know of at least one original Kurtis KK roadster still missing and the person who finds the remains of that own has achieved something special.
Cars of the post 1970 era are mosre suitable for European tracks because after 1970 slowly but surely the other paved tracks came in the schedule and certainly a 90's CART car had to be so versatile since it also was used on streetcoarses and roadtracks that in such specifications it can be a workable car in Europe.


I can't approve it but somehow I have a feeling that Historic F1 is better represented in the USA because of F1 having a history in F1 then Historic Indycars in Europe because if my memory is correct there have been only 8 or so races for them in Europe since the first one in 1957.

Henri

[arttidesco]

There is ONE car which gets entered with either Organisation every now and then, I think its a Watson, buuut then it might be a Kurtis...

Were you thinking about this one ? Indeed a 1957 Kurtis KK500G which has put in a welcome appearance at the Silverstone classic for at least the last two years that I have attended. It's driven by Stuart/Fred Harper in the Tasman Indy cars class of the HGPCA Pre '61 Front Engined GP Cars series.

I'd love to see a historic class for the USAC / CART Cars, maybe the '78 Brands Hatch Capri could be revived complete with it's Indy paintwork to do the rolling starts

[ianbuddery]

There does seem to be something of a quite interest in Indycars in Europe brewing which is good. I've had a couple of people start to make noises about running them which would be great.

Aside from that they are wonderful, powerful, good looking cars that go like hell on both road courses and ovals. They also sound very distinctive which is kind of lost on the TV. The whistle of the turbo coupled with a V8 is a unique sound. It's perfectly achievable to race these cars on road courses today, just a matter of getting enough people interested.

I was pleasantly surprised at the level of interest I received from Europe when I recently had my Lola T700 for sale. As it happened, the car was bought by a local and has moved to Adelaide.

In Australia, we are very fortunate in that Indy cars (up to 1986) are eligible for historic racing in Group R. It's fair to say that some people don't welcome us and there is a lot of misinformation about the "danger" of methanol, but the crowds love the cars for their noise and drama.

After a long learning curve, I find the Cosworth DFX easy to operate and very reliable, with excellent spare parts support. I ran a main bearing a couple of years back and rebuilt the bottom end myself, total cost $1200! Try that with an F1 car... I run a lubricant additive in the fuel, which also takes a little of the acrid exhaust smell away. I've never had an overheating issue.

The (rolling) acceleration is astonishing and high speed cornering amazing, low speed corners a bit more of a challenge, overall a totally addictive driving experience. Standing starts are difficult to get right and the tall 1st gear means that rear CV joints take a lot of punishment. Even with a good launch I inevitably lose 3 or 4 places - a Formula Atlantic has a quicker 0-100mph time. On the other hand, I have a much quicker 100-200mph time

I'm biased I know, but these cars and their history deserve more attention and it saddens me that big ticket historic meetings in the US, such as Laguna Seca in August, at best only include a handful of Offy roadsters, but have any number of Euro-centric junior formulas.

Edited by ianbuddery, 03 June 2013 - 22:40.

[xj13v12]

The vintage car demonstration at Indy each year has grown into a worthwhile exercise. A large number of cars get exercised at reasonable speed. I ran my 1972 Eagle there last year and reached 140 in the straights and over 100 around the turns.

As owner of 6 Indy cars from 1966 to 1973 I am of the opinion that racing these cars in regular historic races is not such a difficult issue. I have been racing my 1966 Eagle for a few years now and have gradually reached a set-up that enables me to run fast enough to have fun but hopefully without too much risk to the car. That's about 5-6 seconds a lap slower than my F5000 and being a pre-wing car on grooved tyres that seems to be about the right pace.

I chose the car specifically because it ran normally aspirated Ford engine, had a monocoque (I won't race a frame car) good brakes and was a symmetrical suspension design. Basically the Eagle is an F1 car with a different engine.

The cars previous comments refer to are more likely to be the DFX wing era cars which are probably the best value cars in the world. The Lolas and Marches are very well designed cars quite adaptable to circuit racing for the experienced amateur driver and good radial slicks are available in the correct sizes. Bias ply tyres I use on the Eagle are not quite the exact correct size being a little too wide and not as tall as they would have been originally. I could revert to radials and alter the suspension accordingly and the car would look more correct on the track but this is splitting hairs.
The one time I raced my M16C with Chev engine the car felt very stable at speed but the tyres were old and the steering ratio wrong for road circuit. There are a lot of Chev engine Indy cars out there but they do not meet the Australian criteria UNLESS they can be shown absolutely to have run that engine in period. The people running the DFX cars have commented what great cars they are and less than half the price of an similar period F1 car.

The earlier Watson roadster could be made to work on our anti-clockwise tracks but can never completely overcome the offset suspension. Believe me I have thought about trying it. Their feeble brakes would be an issue whereas the later cars have excellent brakes.

I got used to the fuel and post meeting work to pickle the engine by running oily petrol through the system for storage. Also there is a fuel additive that the speedway guys use which greatly reduces the risk to aluminium components in the short to medium term. In other words don't be too afraid to look at an Indy car for historic racing. Down here the categories are simply age related so I just jump in with Tasman, F2, F1, FJ etc whatever the grid happens to consist of. With a sensible approach this need not create any danger provided everyone allows the race to settle down for the first few corners.

[carl s]

TJ, Here's a link to a good place to start in your inquiry about Historic Indycar Oval Racing in the US.
http://www.vintageovalracing.com/
In the past two years I've run my 1927 Miller Indycar Replica #15 Boyle Valve Spl at Michigan Int'l Speedway, Milwaukee Mile, Indianapolis Motor Speedway, Texas World Speedway, Auto Club Speedway, Phoenix Int'l Speedway as well as the short tracks at Havasu City, Tucson, Salem, Winchester and Terre Haute.
This year started at Tucson and in a few weeks Auto Club Speedway, then Milwaukee Miller Meet, then to Rockingham NC, a few midwest short tracks then home again to Willow Springs, Auto Club Speedway with the Indycar Series and finally at Havasu City in Nov.
Here's a link to some photos from our last visit to Auto Club-Bobby Unser was there to drive T54s recently completed Gurney Offy Eagle-
http://s1011.photobu...593963056805044
http://s1011.photobu...426118819855761

2012 Miller Club Meet at Milwaukee Mile.
http://s1011.photobu...694084133984081

We had around 30 historic indycars at our last Auto Club Event and expect about the same this month. Last year we had 50 something indycars at Milwaukee Millers and this year expect the same.
Hope this helps.
Carl Schulz
Indio, CA

Having been to several historic races in Europe (and US) which feature old F1 machinery, I can't help but notice that there doesn't seem to be any kind of venue where old SCCA/ USAC/ CART cars get out and about. Apart from a couple that I seem to recall displayed at FoS some years ago. Is there no interest in these cars, or is it the exotic cocktails they drink that keep them away from being exercised? I'm sure they must have some value and are stored by owners around the US...

I think I once saw a short documentary about an old racecar Mario Andretti had driven in the early/ mid 60s, which was then restored to former glory, and MA had the chance to drive it again. But I have no idea if that was a one off thing, or if the car ended up in someone's vault later on.

As much as I love to see the March 761, Surtees TS16, BT44, FW07 and the like it would have been cool to see a couple of 1960s Watson Offy's, and perhaps some 1970s Penske and Eagle's.

T J

Edited by carl s, 04 June 2013 - 02:34.

[raceannouncer2003]

There was a great turnout of Indy roadsters at Monterey in 2007. I was behind the pit wall when they fired up. Couldn't believe it...my eyes and nose ran like someone had turned a tap on ! There was also a big display from the IMS Museum.

Some video...you can hear Alice Hanks saying "Gentlemen, start your engines"









Vince H.

[wenoopy]

There are a number of photos from the 2007 Monterey Historic Festival on www.bakerracing.com . Also some Roadster photos on Flickr of the "AutoRacing Indy 500 Community Day" on 21 May 2008 - (?) which may be an annual Indianapolis event.

Also a recent thread on the New Zealand-based "Roaring Season" forum - (www.theroaringseason.com/showthread.php?1079-Indy-Roadsters )with more Monterey 2007 photos.

Stu Buchanan

[racinggeek]

As far as the OP's wish to see more 1970s Indy Cars, I'd agree -- but on the rare occasions one has appeared at the events I've attended, more often than not it's carrying a V-8 Chevy in the back instead of the Offy. I'd guess that parts availability and costs are the main reasons; I heard one Eagle owner talking a few years ago about how he was encouraged by a friend to drop a Chevy in the back, saying he's have just as much fun for a whole lot less money. The Olsonite Eagle No. 6 seen above in Carl's post (IMHO, one of the best-looking race cars of any type, ever) is the only one of the '70s cars I can recall actually running with an Offy (Road America, 2006).

Edited by racinggeek, 04 June 2013 - 22:14.

[carl s]

Quite correct on all counts racinggeek.
Here's a bit more on the event at Philippe's (poster T54) Gurney Offy Eagle pride and joy (7 year restoration/recreation, flying Bobby Unser in for it's maiden voyage and the turbo burns up after 1 lap) -that's part of this vintage deal.
http://forums.autosp...w...&hl=Fontana
Carl

As far as the OP's wish to see more 1970s Indy Cars, I'd agree -- but on the rare occasions one has appeared at the events I've attended, more often than not it's carrying a V-8 Chevy in the back instead of the Offy. I'd guess that parts availability and costs are the main reasons; I heard one Eagle owner talking a few years ago about how he was encouraged by a friend to drop a Chevy in the back, saying he's have just as much fun for a whole lot less money. The Olsonite Eagle No. 6 seen above in Carl's post (IMHO, one of the best-looking race cars of any type, ever) is the only one of the '70s cars I can recall actually running with an Offy (Road America, 2006).

Edited by carl s, 05 June 2013 - 04:38.

[raceannouncer2003]

There are a number of photos from the 2007 Monterey Historic Festival on www.bakerracing.com

I think you mean this:

http://www.bakerraci...open-wheel.html

Vince H.

[TJJohansen]

Thanks for all the replies. I guess there is more interest in these old racecars than I thought. I will hopefully be able to visit one of the venues where they participate, but this year chances are I will go to the 50th anni. of the Reno Air Races. 1500+ HP in these WWII fighters at speed is never dull...

T J

[xj13v12]

The last few years there have been plenty of Turbo Offys running in the Vintage laps before the Indy 500. As I said the speeds have been moving up to a reasonable level and the full range of cars from pre WWI to late 1990s have been on track. However these engines IMHO (having driven couple) are totally unsuited to road racing. The Millers at Milwaukie event sees plenty of everything running. I have not yet run at Fontana Oval, Road or Roval but the concept looks great. BUT I don't think I would want to run actual races on ovals in an historic format as we do for road type circuits. Just my opinion after 30 years of racing and having run Indy cars, F5000s, Can-am etc.

[biercemountain]

The last few years there have been plenty of Turbo Offys running in the Vintage laps before the Indy 500. As I said the speeds have been moving up to a reasonable level and the full range of cars from pre WWI to late 1990s have been on track. However these engines IMHO (having driven couple) are totally unsuited to road racing.

Is it the turbo lag that makes these engines unsuitable or is it the gearing, or a combination of both?

[xj13v12]

The turbo lag, quite unbelievable really. No throttle response at all compared to any other engine. I presume the small turbo would spin up faster and if you kept the revs up the acceleration would be ok but out of slow corners and for mid corner throttle response they would be frustrating trying to get to work. Gearing is not a problem, the Hewland LG500 can run any gear sets you choose.

[biercemountain]

The turbo lag, quite unbelievable really. No throttle response at all compared to any other engine. I presume the small turbo would spin up faster and if you kept the revs up the acceleration would be ok but out of slow corners and for mid corner throttle response they would be frustrating trying to get to work. Gearing is not a problem, the Hewland LG500 can run any gear sets you choose.

What was the torque response of a non turbo Offy? I'd imagine it was pretty good seeing how widespread it's use was in Sprint cars.

Another question. While watching a rebroadcast of the 1967 Indy 500 Parnelli Jones mentions the other teams adding more nitro overnight after the race was red flagged. Was he just joking or was it common for teams to tweak their fuel in an attempt to gain an advantage?

[ZOOOM]

In '67, Parnelli was driving the turbine. On the first day he had used the four wheel drive on the car to pass high and low, anywhere he wanted to do so. The car was a rocket. Then it rained. The race was temporairily halted for the day.
Throughout the month of May, everyone competing against the turbine had complained that it wasn't legal, smelled funny, was dangerous, etc.
The car was just that fast.
For qualifing, everybody else ran light fuel and "pop" (nitro) so they could get added horsepower. The turbine just ran straight kerosene.
During the race, everybody ran straight blends on fuel so the engines would last (reducing the power from qualifing).

Parnelli's comment was a jibe at the rest of the field, saying in effect that to catch him the next day, they would have to add some nitro st stay with him....
ZOOOM

[Eaglenindy]

The problem with finding 60's and 70's Indy cars is multifold:

The faster cars were "passed down" by sales to smaller less competitive teams and run for many years.

Tube frame cars from the 60's were either worn out, wrecked or turned into rear engine sprint cars/modifides or early Formula A (pre US Formula 5000)

60's monococques wore out, were totaled or where drastically modified to accept wings and turbos. Very few remain as they were worn out.


The 70's cars stayed pretty competitive until the ground effects era started in 1979. Many were adapted to ground effects and wore out

You must remember that during the late 60's and until 1970, USAC ran about 25 races a year. Most cars lasted 2 or 3 years of racing and were too tired and outdated to continue. From there, they were likely cannibalized for usable parts.

Barn finds and restorable Indycars from those days are few and far between.

[biercemountain]

Does anybody know when the practice of "pushing" an Indy car out of the pits was abandoned? I'm guessing the torque of the newer engines and stronger clutches made it unnecessary. I'd imagine the potential for damaging the rear wing also has something to do with it.

[xj13v12]

The problem with finding 60's and 70's Indy cars is multifold:

The faster cars were "passed down" by sales to smaller less competitive teams and run for many years.

Tube frame cars from the 60's were either worn out, wrecked or turned into rear engine sprint cars/modifides or early Formula A (pre US Formula 5000)

60's monococques wore out, were totaled or where drastically modified to accept wings and turbos. Very few remain as they were worn out.


The 70's cars stayed pretty competitive until the ground effects era started in 1979. Many were adapted to ground effects and wore out

You must remember that during the late 60's and until 1970, USAC ran about 25 races a year. Most cars lasted 2 or 3 years of racing and were too tired and outdated to continue. From there, they were likely cannibalized for usable parts.

Barn finds and restorable Indycars from those days are few and far between.

I found 6 of them. Three from the 60s with excellent original monocoques.

[Henri Greuter]

I found 6 of them. Three from the 60s with excellent original monocoques.

Any chance you can reveal which ones? I know this is a difficult question to answer so no problem if you rather won't do so.


Henri

[xj13v12]

Any chance you can reveal which ones? I know this is a difficult question to answer so no problem if you rather won't do so.


Henri

3 Eagles, 2 McLarens and a Brabham - real not a copy.
I guess cars are around if you are a genuine buyer or do the research and buy a car worthy of restoration. BUT the thread is basically right, there are not that many decent cars still unfound. More early 70s Eagles were made than any other car until the mass produced era of the March and Lolas of the next decade, so I guess there would be more of those remaining unrestored than anything else. The earlier tube frame cars may well have been cut up and cannibalised or simply rusted away by now. I have seen a couple that will make good track cars using rear engine Chev a Gilbert and a Curtis (not Kurtis). Depends what you are looking for. I have also seen a couple of Penskes and they were great cars.

[TJJohansen]

So what about the late 80s/ early- mid 90s CART cars. Are they still around? I do note that a few F1 cars of the same era do show up at certain venues, but don't anyone keep the CART racers from the same timeframe? I have seen a pair of Marlboro Penske's at Donington and the Mercedes museum, but only as static displays.

T J