2748 replies to this topic

[Fangiola]

If Ferrari or McLaren were caught in the same exact situation as Mercedes, all hell would have broken lose. Had they received the same verdict, it would have been worldwide cries of pro-Ferrari or pro-McLaren favoritism. Amazing a team can test the curerent tires with the current car and get away with it. Unreal.

almost 70 pages on the main thread discussing the topic and at least 3 other threads indirectly connected to it. I think all hell did break lose

[mattferg]

Are they banned from the Abu Dhabi YDT as well or just Silverstone?

[Szoelloe]

Silverstone only

[Freung]

Absolutely, their ineptitude/corruption or a combination of both and more has made them weak vs. the other stakeholders of the sport, who, in turn, are even more corrupt. That's why F1 as a sport is and has been in disrepute and many fans don't have much hope that it will change for the better in the short to medium term. Meanwhile, there are 2 basic alternatives: continue to watch because of the inertia created by following it for a long time, but as another form of relatively low-quality entertainment, or wait for a better sporting category of auto-racing to appear or be found and switch. Personally, I'm in a transition between both.

Wise man once said,, 'there's no honor among thieves' !

[Freung]

I suspect Charlie's answer next time, and the FIA legal team, might be "NO, but if you are Mercedes then it's ok to go ahead".

lol..very strange post.

[Freung]

Why the need of secrecy if Merc and Pirelly acted in good faith? I don't believe for a moment that they did not knew they were breaking the rules. However, they also knew that a possible punishment would be light because of the political situation.

Skalet, does the MERC board have your tel no.?!??!! Well i suppose they really should have sent you a letter if not.! Yeah i see what you are saying about secrecy..Get rid of them Skalet,,the whole lot of em. They need to keep you fully informed. This is so not good enough.

[Freung]

It encourages teams and everybody in F1 in general to try to go to the limit regarding rules...in a bad way. That means more Flavios, Brawns, DDs, HHs 2010, et. al...

Dont think that will need encouragement,,or deterrence . Was around before this saga and will no doubt continue to be.!

[RealRacing]

Dont think that will need encouragement,,or deterrence . Was around before this saga and will no doubt continue to be.!

True, but it will certainly not get better with these kinds of verdicts. That it has always been there doesn't necessarily mean it should continue to be...

[britishtrident]

The truth is while the punishment is light to the extent of being almost non-existant you have to view the mild sanction handed out to Mercedes in the wake of the Draconian ( some might say vindictive ? ) punishment of MacLaren Mercedes at the end of the previous regime at the FIA.

[Fastcake]

Are they banned from the Abu Dhabi YDT as well or just Silverstone?

They're banned from holding a YDT this year, unless I misread it.

[Szoelloe]

They're banned from holding a YDT this year, unless I misread it.

You didn't, the verdict says banned from "the forthcoming" YDT.

[KnucklesAgain]

You didn't, the verdict says banned from "the forthcoming" YDT.

FIA can't even be precise in a verdict that laments how imprecise they were.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 22 June 2013 - 15:52.

[Szoelloe]

FIA can't even be precise in a verdict that laments how imprecise they were.

While I agree, the verdict was written up by the IT, not the FIA?

[KnucklesAgain]

While I agree, the verdict was written up by the IT, not the FIA?

But the IT is part of FIA's system:

The 2010 FIA General Assembly adopted a new judicial system which includes an International Tribunal (IT) exercising the FIA’s disciplinary powers in the first instance (for cases not dealt with by the Stewards of the Meeting).

http://www.fia.com/a...onal-tribunal-0

[Talisman]

But the IT is part of FIA's system:

http://www.fia.com/a...onal-tribunal-0

It is, but it is also supposed to be independent in its judgments just as any judicial system in a democratic society is supposed to be independent of the machinations of government.

I thought the IT did well, it criticised the FIA and gave Mercedes and Pirelli a light slap on the wrist, proportional punishments for what seems most like a misunderstanding.

[oetzi]

Phew - glad you are still with us, I was worried that you might have blown a gasket.

Now the question is, now he has a lot more information, will Christian roll the dice again against the red cars?

Personally I would rather have the action on track rather than in the Paris.

Seano

Can't see it, but I've been busy since so I could be wrong.

[skalet]

From the verdict: "Both Pirelli and Mercedes disclosed to FIA at least the essence of what they intended to do in relation to the test and attempted to obtain permission for it; and Mercedes had no reason to believe that approval had not been given"

http://www.fia.com/s.....sion (EN).pdf p.17

And still the test needed to be kept secret from the other teams? Don't fool yourselves, this was a political ruling. F1 is about money.

[Tungsten]

And still the test needed to be kept secret from the other teams? Don't fool yourselves, this was a political ruling. F1 is about money.

I don't think that's true in this case at all.

I found the IT decision document a bit hard going in places interpretationwise, and as someone on another board has pointed out, it has a few mistakes in it. Why for example would Jason Button be making a statement on behalf of Mercedes, when the similarly named Jenson Button drives for another team? LOL

There's a really good analysis that has been put up on Pitpass today. It puts the hearing into context.

http://www.pitpass.c...tional-Tribunal

It's extremely well presented, and explains a lot of the apparent anomalies which people have been talking about on here.

[halifaxf1fan]

I don't think that's true in this case at all.

I found the IT decision document a bit hard going in places interpretationwise, and as someone on another board has pointed out, it has a few mistakes in it. Why for example would Jason Button be making a statement on behalf of Mercedes, when the similarly named Jenson Button drives for another team? LOL

There's a really good analysis that has been put up on Pitpass today. It puts the hearing into context.

http://www.pitpass.c...tional-Tribunal

It's extremely well presented, and explains a lot of the apparent anomalies which people have been talking about on here.

Of course it was a political decision. Mercedes would have been on the phone telling Todt and Eccelstone that if they got a significant penalty that they would fold up their team and more importantly pull their engines out of F1. The tribunal was just a vehicle to an end which was to let Mercedes off.

[Szoelloe]

Of course it was a political decision. Mercedes would have been on the phone telling Todt and Eccelstone that if they got a significant penalty that they would fold up their team and more importantly pull their engines out of F1. The tribunal was just a vehicle to an end which was to let Mercedes off.

Cool story.

[trogggy]

Redbull threatens to boycott YDT and setup private test session

There's a thread about it already.

[Fangiola]

There's a thread about it already.

soz, I didn't know. thanks

[V3TT3L]

ZE PUNISHMENT given to Mercedes AMG was so light that Brawn might be considering another Pirate Test.
The suggested punishment for the Pirelligate II at the International Tribunal would be banishment for 2014 YDT

[Rinehart]

[quote name='halifaxf1fan' date='Jun 24 2013, 04:29' post='6324895']
Of course it was a political decision. Mercedes would have been on the phone telling Todt and Eccelstone that if they got a significant penalty that they would fold up their team and more importantly pull their engines out of F1. The tribunal was just a vehicle to an end which was to let Mercedes off.
[/quote

But McLaren didn't pack up and head for GT racing over the £100m spygate penalty.

I'm not dismissing that there were no politics involved, but there were. Mostly in terms of the FIA saving face, keeping its only tyre supplier in the room, and Ferrari, as always.

[halifaxf1fan]

Of course it was a political decision. Mercedes would have been on the phone telling Todt and Eccelstone that if they got a significant penalty that they would fold up their team and more importantly pull their engines out of F1. The tribunal was just a vehicle to an end which was to let Mercedes off.
[/quote

But McLaren didn't pack up and head for GT racing over the £100m spygate penalty.

I'm not dismissing that there were no politics involved, but there were. Mostly in terms of the FIA saving face, keeping its only tyre supplier in the room, and Ferrari, as always.

It is different with McLaren as they are not a manufacturer like Mercedes who sees F1 as a sideline/marketing venture. McLaren's business is based almost solely on competing in F1.

[SpaMaster]

It is getting ridiculous now Eurosport reporting that Red Bull considering to conduct its own secret test given the light punishment meted out to Mercedes.

[Fangiola]

It is getting ridiculous now Eurosport reporting that Red Bull considering to conduct its own secret test given the light punishment meted out to Mercedes.

they should put up or shut up. No need leaking this to the media. Just go ahead and do it and damn the consequences if they have the balls.

if you want to test, test, don't talk.

its all posturing as far as am concerned or just trying to test the backlash if they ever do it.

[halifaxf1fan]

It is getting ridiculous now Eurosport reporting that Red Bull considering to conduct its own secret test given the light punishment meted out to Mercedes.

At least Red Bull are being up front about and acting in 'good faith' by telling us beforehand.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 24 June 2013 - 19:36.

[Szoelloe]

It is getting ridiculous now Eurosport reporting that Red Bull considering to conduct its own secret test given the light punishment meted out to Mercedes.

Media hype, based on a rumour started by god knows who. Red Bull will deny it by tomorrow. Horner is definitely not an Einstein, but they can't be this dumb. Nobody can. But, have to say, its great fun.

[SpaMaster]

they should put up or shut up. No need leaking this to the media. Just go ahead and do it and damn the consequences if they have the balls.

if you want to test, test, don't talk.

its all posturing as far as am concerned or just trying to test the backlash if they ever do it.

I disagree. They may not do it and may not even have any intention of doing it, but the fact that they say "we would also do our own illegal testing then" is a reflection of their take on the Mercedes saga. They are mocking FIA's authority and toothlessness by making 'just a statement' like this. If I were FIA, I would be peeved off and would feel insulted. That's exactly what they are trying to do. They don't have to literally test.

[Diablobb81]

Or all this is a political weapon to force in season tests back into F1. Because the small teams won't agree to amiable solution.

"You never knew. That was his power. The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. And like that, poof. He's gone."

Not really nice to blown one's trumpet but it was pretty clear. And the Silverstone debacle just sped it up.

Edited by Diablobb81, 01 July 2013 - 18:46.

[alfa1]

It is getting ridiculous now

Suppose some of you have read the doubly ridiculous news now.
That the FIA and all teams have decided that a 2013 car / Pirelli tyre test is a *good* and *officially approved* idea.

The "lol" and "roll eyes" icons just dont do justice to this chapter of the farce.

[ZooL]

Suppose some of you have read the doubly ridiculous news now.
That the FIA and all teams have decided that a 2013 car / Pirelli tyre test is a *good* and *officially approved* idea.

The "lol" and "roll eyes" icons just dont do justice to this chapter of the farce.

Indeed.

Mercedes are not guilty at all.

Still can't forget the words "bona fida approval" from the tribunal. I struggle to accept that that the tribunal said this yet still had Merc facing punishment despite it being very clear now that Whiting and FIA Lawyer did not follow the due process and should never have issued a "bona fida approval".

The punishment doesn't fit the perceived crime anymore now that the FIA has done a U-turn and converted the YDT to a fully fledged 4 day race driver test with 2013 car and 2013 tyres.

Brawn is getting soft in his old age in accepting this.

Edited by ZooL, 02 July 2013 - 11:14.

[Clatter]

Indeed.

Mercedes are not guilty at all.

Still can't forget the words "bona fida approval" from the tribunal. I struggle to accept that that the tribunal said this yet still had Merc facing punishment despite it being very clear now that Whiting and FIA Lawyer did not follow the due process and should never have issued a "bona fida approval".

The punishment doesn't fit the perceived crime anymore now that the FIA has done a U-turn and converted the YDT to a fully fledged 4 day race driver test with 2013 car and 2013 tyres.

Brawn is getting soft in his old age in accepting this.

Your right, they are still getting off lightly.

[ExFlagMan]

Suppose some of you have read the doubly ridiculous news now.
That the FIA and all teams have decided that a 2013 car / Pirelli tyre test is a *good* and *officially approved* idea.

The "lol" and "roll eyes" icons just dont do justice to this chapter of the farce.

I guess Michelin have just told the FIA and teams that they are not interested in coming back to F1.

[Clatter]

I guess Michelin have just told the FIA and teams that they are not interested in coming back to F1.

Just? They said that ages ago. It's just that a few people don't seem able to accept it.

[MaxisOne]

Indeed.

Mercedes are not guilty at all.

Still can't forget the words "bona fida approval" from the tribunal. I struggle to accept that that the tribunal said this yet still had Merc facing punishment despite it being very clear now that Whiting and FIA Lawyer did not follow the due process and should never have issued a "bona fida approval".

The punishment doesn't fit the perceived crime anymore now that the FIA has done a U-turn and converted the YDT to a fully fledged 4 day race driver test with 2013 car and 2013 tyres.

Brawn is getting soft in his old age in accepting this.

Nah ... we already pushed the envelope and unlatched the gate .. let them test.. we didn't have FIA observers at our test.. im sure the FIA will be all over the teams garages this time around to ENSURE NOTHING gets passed to them and that they aren't testing new parts. If I recall correctly shortly after the Merc/Pirelli test we received an email from Pirelli with probably useful data.. I would venture to guess that the teams probably wont be getting anything like that this time around.

In the mean time we can develop from the windtunnel and simulations..

At the end of the day its a net loss for Merc not to test but its not the end of the world.

[bourbon]

Right. The new test will still not render a fair result precisely because the teams will not have the same freedoem Merc did in its private test over 3 days - where nobody, including the FIA knows what went on, outside of the conflicting reports from Merc and Pirelli. What is most interesting is how jolly Merc seem to be about it all - still unable to bring themselves to admit anywrongdoing and grasping at straw-like excuses in order to justify that test.

However, this upcoming test is better than nothing in terms of giving a nod to equinamity. Today Horner pointed out that the test will only have 1day of testing with the team drivers - which in some cases might be 1/2 a day a piece - still much less training than what the Merc drivers got. It is kind of sad because I've always wanted to see Nico do well, and I also was keen on Hamilton doing well after his decision to switch. But the way they have gone about it put that all to waste. Shame.

[Kyo]

The FIA Tribunal will put a show and give a verdict/punishment that fit their agenda. Simple as that.

I posted this way before the judgment, in F1, decisions were always heavily influenced by political agendas and I don't see this changing anytime soon.

[f1fastestlap]

They benefited so much from this test...

[SpaMaster]

Today there has been news that Pirelli has threatened to quit F1 if it is not allowed to do more testing for its 2014 tyres using this year's car, if possible even next year's car very early in the season.

 

I think the situation is a total mess. First of all, they should stop this non-sense with special one-on-testing with individual teams. Arrange for extra testing sessions for tyres that are open to all teams. Let us have regulated common testing sessions. Let the extra expenses incurred also be shared by similar stipulation. Enough with this private testing.

[alfa1]

First of all, they should stop this non-sense with special one-on-testing with individual teams. Arrange for extra testing sessions for tyres that are open to all teams.

 

Disagree.

We're talking about *tyre* company testing here, not race team testing.

Pirelli have some compounds that they wish to have tested. This requires the use of ONE car. Pirelli would make up just enough of the tyres to do what they need to test, and no more.

 

If you now insist that the only way the testing can be done is to FORCE Pirelli against their will to make enough batches of tyres so that 21 other cars can also run that Pirelli have no need for... I think you'll find that Pirelli will say "to hell with that".

[redreni]

Disagree.
We're talking about *tyre* company testing here, not race team testing.
Pirelli have some compounds that they wish to have tested. This requires the use of ONE car. Pirelli would make up just enough of the tyres to do what they need to test, and no more.
 
If you now insist that the only way the testing can be done is to FORCE Pirelli against their will to make enough batches of tyres so that 21 other cars can also run that Pirelli have no need for... I think you'll find that Pirelli will say "to hell with that".

This is where the teams and Pirelli have to be open and above board and behave like adults. Pirelli were rightly reprimanded over the Barcelona test not because the were testing, which they‘re allowed to do, but because they were doing it behind the FIA‘s back without notifying 11 of the teams, in breach of their contractual and regulatory duty to treat the competitors equally and to ensure nobody gets an advantage.

I wouldn‘t want to make 12 sets of every tyre I wanted to test if I were Pirelli, but at the same time I wouldn‘t really want to make a tyre, test it on one car, go away and tweak it then have to come back another day and test it on a different car. I‘d rather use the same car each time. Pirelli really should have thought this one through when they signed the contract where they said they would guarantee full sporting equity. Maybe the teams will accept a rolling programme of private tests where a large number of highly experimental compounds and constructions need back to back testing, but anything that‘s under serious consideration for introduction is always going to have to be given to everyone at a GP weekend as an extra set for FP1. It‘s the only fair way.

[jimjimjeroo]

Why don't the use this years car, with Rubens or similar non contracted driver, behind the wheel, with race 1 spec...

As for what team to choose, names in a hat and the cost is covered by all the teams at a percentage, worked out from who holds the most-least points, red bull pays more, caterham pays less

[noikeee]

It would be pretty funny if Pirelli walked out of F1 in like, late December. I'd love to know what would the teams do then. Fit road tyres down the local shop? Use old demo tyres?

 

This has got to be an empty threat though - didn't they sign a contract with all the teams very recently? There'd be some pretty massive compensation fees Pirelli would have to pay to walk out of F1 now. Even with the argument that testing's on the contract and they've not been given the conditions for it, a lengthy legal battle would ensue.

[SpaMaster]

Disagree.

We're talking about *tyre* company testing here, not race team testing.

Pirelli have some compounds that they wish to have tested. This requires the use of ONE car. Pirelli would make up just enough of the tyres to do what they need to test, and no more.

 

If you now insist that the only way the testing can be done is to FORCE Pirelli against their will to make enough batches of tyres so that 21 other cars can also run that Pirelli have no need for... I think you'll find that Pirelli will say "to hell with that".

Of course, it is tyre company testing, not race team testing.

 

It does not have to be 21 other cars, it could be 10 other cars (1 car per team). Who says Pirelli has to bear the whole cost of testing? This is what I meant by saying all the involved parties sharing the responsibility of additional resources required. The way it is done now is unprofessional sporting.

[pdac]

How it needs to work is that Pirelli should work with the FIA to determine a suitable date and venue to test at and then the FIA should choose a team and inform them that the must make a car available for the test. This requirement should be written into the rules along with the amount of notice that has to be given. The team should be involved in the test to the minimum amount possible.

 

If other teams then have a problem with the test, they would have to take it up with the FIA.

[redreni]

Of course, it is tyre company testing, not race team testing.
 
It does not have to be 21 other cars, it could be 10 other cars (1 car per team). Who says Pirelli has to bear the whole cost of testing? This is what I meant by saying all the involved parties sharing the responsibility of additional resources required. The way it is done now is unprofessional sporting.

According to Hembury (so keep you bs detector honed) when Pirelli first mooted the idea of the test that they eventually carried out in Barcelona with Mercedes, they asked every team if they would be interested in participating on the basis that they, Pirelli, would pay to hire the track and would cover the teams‘ costs. 1 out of 12 teams responded. You think the level of interest would improve if the teams had to pay?

There could be a mandatory system where teams have to pay the costs, or a special levy on teams to create a fund to pay these costs, but as a team owner I would tend towards the view that Pirelli has agreed to supply tyres for a fixed price, and they‘ve agreed to treat everybody fairly, so to the extent that testing is needed in order for them to make suitable, safe tyres, Pirelli ought to have factored the cost of doing that testing in a contractual and fair way into its price.

[SpaMaster]

According to Hembury (so keep you bs detector honed) when Pirelli first mooted the idea of the test that they eventually carried out in Barcelona with Mercedes, they asked every team if they would be interested in participating on the basis that they, Pirelli, would pay to hire the track and would cover the teams‘ costs. 1 out of 12 teams responded. You think the level of interest would improve if the teams had to pay?
 

The answer lies in what you have written within brackets. That was pure lie. Total BS. Pirelli asked every team not this year, but the year before, and that too was for two or three year old car. For the test they carried out in Barcelona with Mercedes, they asked NO OTHER TEAM. May be they asked Red Bull which Red Bull promptly dismissed saying that would not be allowed in the regulations.

There could be a mandatory system where teams have to pay the costs, or a special levy on teams to create a fund to pay these costs, but as a team owner I would tend towards the view that Pirelli has agreed to supply tyres for a fixed price, and they‘ve agreed to treat everybody fairly, so to the extent that testing is needed in order for them to make suitable, safe tyres, Pirelli ought to have factored the cost of doing that testing in a contractual and fair way into its price.

 

Agree with this. However, I would be willing to understand the situation of Pirelli since they may not have been able to foresee certain situations given the kind of tyres FIA and the teams wanted.