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2013 Canadian GP FP1, FP2, FP3 and Qualifying


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#551 SpaMaster

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 22:57

There are plenty of pit lanes though which can accommodate two cars side-by-side with space to spare, which I don't think should be a problem as long as the car behind yields at the exit. The spate of pit lane battles we had a couple of years back were tempered when the stewards began handing out penalties for aggression.



Both of them are two cars width outside the driving lane. I would of handed out the penalties on those grounds alone, as it's obvious they made the decision to swerve around the other cars to start there. The cars on the inner lane at least could have the excuse they were boxed in by other cars. I do think they should of yielded to the cars ahead in the correct lane, if they did not today.

My first point is not to drive on the blue zone. Fast lane is the only place cars should speed-by.

The penalty was not given for being in the inner lane. The penalty was given for not leaving in the order they arrived. As for being in the inner lane, two-car widths, three-car widths, they are all wrong. But no penalty has been given for that.

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#552 Fastcake

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 23:04

My first point is not to drive on the blue zone. Fast lane is the only place cars should speed-by.

The penalty was not given for being in the inner lane. The penalty was given for not leaving in the order they arrived. As for being in the inner lane, two-car widths, three-car widths, they are all wrong. But no penalty has been given for that.


I've heard the reasoning for it, but I would of justified the penalty a different way.

#553 dave34m

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 00:57

How fcking ridiculous these pentlies.

I know, why only 2 spots, should have been 5 minimum

#554 Jimisgod

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 03:30

Massa oh dear.

White lines, baby, white lines.

#555 Atreiu

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 04:53

I know, why only 2 spots, should have been 5 minimum



For that? No penalty. They wanted track position and attempted to get it without putting anyone in danger.
End of.

The stewards intefere too much. IMO.

#556 kedia990

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 05:28

Fear the Red Bull if it rains. The pole lap was probably the worst that I have ever seen, with Vettel going off line left right and centre, yet the Red Bull was fast enough to make it still massively fast. If it is dry, I predict Alonso to be in contention.


I watched the pole lap again, since a lot of people have mentioned how bad the lap was - but to me it seems he took the correct lines, for the wet conditions, in every corner. His line out of the hairpin and his approach to the chicane was particularly excellent.

#557 apoka

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 06:20

I watched the pole lap again, since a lot of people have mentioned how bad the lap was - but to me it seems he took the correct lines, for the wet conditions, in every corner. His line out of the hairpin and his approach to the chicane was particularly excellent.

I think the comments are sometimes quite extreme. I also checked the pole lap and it seemed good. It's not on rails as a dry lap and the lines are different - a bit wide at one or two corners, but otherwise very controlled and close to the maximum you can do in those conditions. He looked quite fast through the last corner - he took some risk there.


#558 pusko

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 06:30

Stupid rules.
When I saw cars lining up for the start of Q3, I couldn't wait for green light....to see a bit of a drama.
They should leave at least a bit of "rock n' roll" in F1. Otherwise it's just to artificial and boring...
:-)

#559 Juggles

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 06:30

I agree, Vettel's lap looked fine to me.

I don't think he'll have a better chance to win in Canada: starting from pole with two Mercs, a Williams and his teammate in the four positions behind him. Assuming it's dry I doubt Hamilton and Rosberg will have the race pace to compete, Bottas certainly won't.

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#560 Juggles

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 06:33

Stupid rules.
When I saw cars lining up for the start of Q3, I couldn't wait for green light....to see a bit of a drama.
They should leave at least a bit of "rock n' roll" in F1. Otherwise it's just to artificial and boring...
:-)


Wouldn't it be quite "rock n' roll" if they were allowed to crash into each other too?

It's clearly unfair if a driver can come out of the pits well after others and then just jump the queue.

#561 F1ultimate

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 06:36

Kimi has bad bar manners.

#562 rijole1

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 06:39

Kimi has bad bar manners.

:D Indeed - 10 places extra penalty for that, please

#563 ivand911

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 06:48

Weather forecast for the race? What to expect?

#564 pusko

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 07:03

Wouldn't it be quite "rock n' roll" if they were allowed to crash into each other too?

It's clearly unfair if a driver can come out of the pits well after others and then just jump the queue.


I know what you mean, but they are professionals. They "should" know what they are doing.
And so what if one gains a place in pit exit...it's exciting that way.....I miss Irvine, Montoya,.... :smoking:

#565 Lotusseven

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 07:46

@ianparkesf1
FIA rules mean Raikkonen and Ricciardo only fall one place. Only in F1 can a two-place penalty mean you drop one position!! #ridiculous



It´s nothing unusual with ridiculous and strange penalties by FIA, but what do you think ?
If you qualifying P10 and than get a 2 places down penalty, will that be according to you...

P10, Start here before penalty
P11, 1 place down
P12, 2 place down
P13, Start here

or

P10, Start here before panalty + 1 place down
P11, 2 place down
P12, Start here

Edited by Lotusseven, 09 June 2013 - 07:47.


#566 apoka

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 08:17

Neither. It is:

P10: start here before penalty
P11: 1 place down
P12: 2 places down, start here

Edited by apoka, 09 June 2013 - 08:18.


#567 sennafan

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 08:20

Raikonnen 10 th + Perez 12 th = Crash in first corner

#568 SpaMaster

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 08:56

It is nothing unusual. Look at it like this. Let's say they were given one-place penalty. Raikkonen has to move one-place down, but the driver he would lose the place to has done the same infringement. Not unusual logic. Always happens when you hand down penalties in the order the incidents took place. Otherwise what would happen is, if 10 drivers (from P5) get 5-place grid penalty, then the driver at P15 would move up to P5. You move down 5 places, but all those in the five places have also done something else wrong. So, your penalty becomes negated. If they were handed out in the order the incident took place, only the bottom 5 would move down places. That is because they are the only ones who have done an infringment that the respective drivers below didn't. Or, if everyone except the last driver gets 5 place penalty, the last driver would start from pole position, and the first 5-place penalty driver would start from P2. Does that make sense? Truth is there would be confusing implications in both cases - handing down penalties at the same time as well as handing them down in the order they appeared.

#569 Trust

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 09:03

Why Vettel wasn't punished because he ruined one of JB's laps.?

#570 artista

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 09:05

There is a very important reason to impose penalties in a certain order. Imagine the following case:

-Driver A finishes Qualifying in P5. He has not slowed down in a yellow flag and gets a 5-place grid penalty. That means he would have to start 10th.
-Driver B finishes Qualifying in P7. He has very, very slightly impeded another driver, who made it to Q3 anyway and didn't lose any place because of it. Driver B gets a 3-place grid penalty and would have to start 10th.

Two drivers can't start from the same spot and, therefore, it's necessary to have a system to apply penalties in a certain order

#571 Lotusseven

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 09:12

Neither. It is:

P10: start here before penalty
P11: 1 place down
P12: 2 places down, start here


I was thinking about to suggest this version which I think is the most logical. Do we all agree on this ?

#572 apoka

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 09:14

Why Vettel wasn't punished because he ruined one of JB's laps.?

That was quite minor and Vettel soon got out of the way - I think it is normal nowadays that drivers report traffic, but you cannot penalise everything.


#573 Mc_Silver

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 09:18

Neither. It is:

P10: start here before penalty
P11: 1 place down
P12: 2 places down, start here


For Kimi

P9: start here before penalty
P10: 1 place down
P11: 2 places down, start here.

So Hulkenberg starts from 9th and perez starts 10th, kimi 11th, ricciardo 12th. This is how it should have been. Hulkenberg got the place he deserved but Perez did not

Edited by Mc_Silver, 09 June 2013 - 09:20.


#574 pusko

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 09:21

http://www.theweathe...quebec/montreal

I hope this will be the case regarding weather....

#575 Kobasmashi

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 09:23

For Kimi

P9: start here before penalty
P10: 1 place down
P11: 2 places down, start here.

So Hulkenberg starts from 9th and perez starts 10th, kimi 11th, ricciardo 12th. This is how it should have been. Hulkenberg got the place he deserved but Perez did not


You have to remember that they apply the penalties in the order of the offences, so as Kimi was in front of Ricciardo, his will be applied first, dropping him from 9th to 11th, then Ricciardo's applies, dropping him from his new 9th place to 11th, leaving Kimi in 10th

Edited by Kobasmashi, 09 June 2013 - 09:23.


#576 1Devil1

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 09:23

Why Vettel wasn't punished because he ruined one of JB's laps.?


Vettel got out of the way immediately, and it wasn't an important lap for Button - would have been ridiculous to punish him.

#577 rmpugh

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 10:02

Kimi has bad bar manners.


Not as bad as Sutil's :)

#578 Lotusseven

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 10:25

When do the Canadian Grand Prix 2013 Race thread start ?

#579 artista

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 10:28

When do the Canadian Grand Prix 2013 Race thread start ?

When somebody (you) opens it :p

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#580 mangeliiito

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 10:28

When do the Canadian Grand Prix 2013 Race thread start ?

When you start it :p

#581 Lotusseven

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 10:34

Ok

#582 Fudce

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 12:54

Vettel got out of the way immediately, and it wasn't an important lap for Button - would have been ridiculous to punish him.

Rosberg got out ofthe way immediately, Button lost a bit of time behind Vettel and was forced to go for another lap. Vettel took several corners to move out of the way (he was behind Vettel from around turn 4, but didn't get by until just before the hairpin)

#583 DrProzac

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 12:57

How's the weather now?

https://twitter.com/...2040834/photo/1

Edited by DrProzac, 09 June 2013 - 12:59.


#584 Moore

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 13:15

This was an image from @TheFifthDriver 35m ago.

Posted Image

Edited by Moore, 09 June 2013 - 13:16.


#585 study

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 13:40

Looks pretty cloudy but theres hours to go yet.

#586 SpaMaster

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 13:49

Those are not the dumping sort of clouds. It is very common for this part of the world to have hanging clouds for a continuously overcast day without rain.

#587 redreni

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 14:07

Vettel/Hamilton got reprimanded a couple of years ago for "racing" in the pitlane,since then there have been clear instructions to the drivers from Whiting with regards to what is and what isn't ok. But that's completely separate from today, today quite frankly Raikkonen and Ricciardo didn't want to pay the "price" of sitting in the pitlane and having their tyres cool off so they tried to "sneak" into a better track position from the side. Completely silly. Has nothing to do with stewards not understanding it, I am sure they understand very well what Raikkonen and Ricciardo tried to do and the stewards tried to come up with an appropriate penalty. At the end of day it was the end of the pitlane, no mechanics were being put in danger with cars being 3 abreast, but somehow the stewards have to enforce fair-play regulations. They can't give drivers a signal that trying to sneak ahead of the queue is ok and they can't go all medieval on them since it wasn't that huge of a deal.


Not a huge deal? When there's 1:59 left in the session, having tyre temp is a huge deal, and having a position in the queue that allows you to get a gap and get to the line before the chequered flag is an even bigger deal. Jumping the queue lets you keep the blankets on longer and still get a good track position. The stewards have got this badly wrong.

A few years ago there was no requirement to wait in the fast lane or to refrain from pushing in at the front of the queue. If that was still the case now, I wouldn't mind because I don't see it as a huge safety issue, and there is no room for politeness when the imperative to get track position on the out-lap is as big as it was in Q2. But once you have a rule, it is grossly unfair to those who follow it not to punish those who break it, or to give out punishments that aren't serious. If you said to any of the drivers in that queue, if you use the nearside lane to jump the queue you'll get a 2-place penalty but it will guarantee that you'll make it to the line, most of those in the middle and towards the back of the queue would undoubtedly prefer to take the penalty (depending what laptime they had in the bank).

I also don't see why the failure to stop in the fast lane is not punished unless an advantage in terms of leaving order is gained. The regulation says nothing about gaining an advantage (unlike, for example, the rules on exceeding track limits). The regulation reads as a cut-and-dried, judgement-of-fact rule, similar to speeding in the pits or crossing the blend line at pit exit i.e. break the rule, get a penalty, end of discussion. I think they should enforce it in that way because otherwise these situations will get messier and messier - what about situations where the order of arrival is unclear because the cars arrive at the end of pitlane side-by-side? How do you know if an advantage has been gained. The stewards need to enforce the rules and make sure everyone blends into the fast lane like they're supposed to, and waits there in good order if the red light is on, like they have to in other championships e.g. V8 Supercars.

If I was Charlie I would say, at the drivers' briefing before the next qualifying session, that if you drive to the end of the pitlane and fail to line up properly in the fast lane, a marshall will come and stand in front of your car with a stationary yellow flag, and he will hold you in position until the green light comes on and all the cars that did line up correctly in the fast lane have passed you, and the matter will also be referred to the stewards who will, at minimum, issue a reprimand.

#588 dau

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 14:31

Rosberg got out ofthe way immediately, Button lost a bit of time behind Vettel and was forced to go for another lap. Vettel took several corners to move out of the way (he was behind Vettel from around turn 4, but didn't get by until just before the hairpin)

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So you want a penalty for this?

#589 encircled

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 14:35

So you want a penalty for this?


:rotfl:

:up:

#590 Fudce

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 14:38

Posted Image

So you want a penalty for this?

Looking at it there, it's not as bad as I remember it - I still think Button lost time, but I agree no penalty.

It SHOULD have been investigated though.

#591 PurpleHam

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 14:40

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So you want a penalty for this?

I thought Button was moaning about nothing when it happened...

#592 jrg19

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 14:45

It might have been looked at if JB didn't get through to Q2 but as he did there was no point.

#593 TheThirdTenor1

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 14:47

It might have been looked at if JB didn't get through to Q2 but as he did there was no point.


No. Massa got a penalty in Barcelona for blocking Webber in Q2, even though Webber made it through to Q3.

#594 OO7

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 16:43

Lewis and Ted Kravitz both mentioned that the Mercedes driver was up 6 or 7 tenths on his final attempt for Pole Position. On-screen at the second sector timing showed Lewis to be up a little over 2 tenths?

#595 Lada Lover

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 16:52

How do you queue up if the end of the line is to the right of your pit garage and the direction of travel is left?

#596 jjcale

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 16:55

Posted Image

So you want a penalty for this?


Yes... and a two race ban, just to make this year's championship competitive

#597 plumtree

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 17:00

Lewis and Ted Kravitz both mentioned that the Mercedes driver was up 6 or 7 tenths on his final attempt for Pole Position. On-screen at the second sector timing showed Lewis to be up a little over 2 tenths?

At the final stage of the session
Vettel (S1) 24.9 - (S2) 27.9 - (S3) 33.0
Hamilton 24.9 - 27.9 - 35.8
Webber 24.7 - 28.0 - 33.6 / 24.8 - 28.0 - 33.2

6-7 tenths, compared to his personal best time (25.1 - 28.4 - 31.9)
2 tenths, compared to the best time of the session (Vettel's first lap in Q3: 25.0 - 28.0 - 32.3)

Edited by plumtree, 09 June 2013 - 17:02.


#598 OO7

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 17:31

At the final stage of the session
Vettel (S1) 24.9 - (S2) 27.9 - (S3) 33.0
Hamilton 24.9 - 27.9 - 35.8
Webber 24.7 - 28.0 - 33.6 / 24.8 - 28.0 - 33.2

6-7 tenths, compared to his personal best time (25.1 - 28.4 - 31.9)
2 tenths, compared to the best time of the session (Vettel's first lap in Q3: 25.0 - 28.0 - 32.3)

Thanks Plumtree :up: . So due to rain in the final sector Pole was never on the cards, as he surely would have lost more than 2 tenths in S3?

#599 plumtree

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 17:42

Thanks Plumtree :up: . So due to rain in the final sector Pole was never on the cards, as he surely would have lost more than 2 tenths in S3?

Yes, that's my opinion. :)

Best S3 time during the last 5 minutes: Sutil 32.6, Vergne 32.7, Bottas 32.8, Rosberg 32.9

Edited by plumtree, 09 June 2013 - 17:44.


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#600 redreni

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 20:59

How do you queue up if the end of the line is to the right of your pit garage and the direction of travel is left?


You take your normal line out of your garage to turn left into the fast lane, stoping when you need to to avoid hitting the stationery cars in the queue. Then you wait to merge into the fast lane at the earliest opportunity. As opposed to driving up to the pit exit line in the wrong lane, making no attempt to merge, and stopping your car in an illegal position at the pit exit line. You wouldn't be breaking the rule because you would not be waiting in line at the pit exit, you would be waiting outside your garage, on the inner lane, to merge straight into the fast lane.