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pirelli threatening to quit F1 at the end of 2013


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#1 eronrules

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 11:22

Pirelli: Maybe F1 will find another supplier willing to work in the dark

http://grandprix247....rk-in-the-dark/


One of several hot topics in the Montreal paddock is talk that Pirelli is willing and ready to quit Formula 1 at the end of the 2013 season.

Heavily criticised for its 2013 tyres, and now embroiled in ‘testgate’, the Italian supplier is also unhappy with F1′s tight testing limits and the obstacles to tyre specification tweaks being erected by the teams.

Facing the wrath of the FIA’s new international tribunal for accepting Pirelli’s invitation of a private test at Barcelona recently, Mercedes’ team boss Ross Brawn on Friday sounded uncertain whether Pirelli will still be in F in 2014.


seems the whole formula 1 is de-laminating, the BernieE glue isn't holding it anymore :smoking:

Edited by Gilles4Ever, 08 June 2013 - 12:59.


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#2 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 11:23

I doubt it. It's too late into the season to find a new tyre supplier for 2014. Pirelli will probably stay for 2014 and then a new tyre supplier will have more time to come in in 2015.

Edited by DutchQuicksilver, 08 June 2013 - 11:24.


#3 Kelateboy

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 11:25

To ensure that there won't be any more 4 stops, Pirelli decides to bring in their two hardest compound tyres to every race beginning with Silverstone. That would be great news.... :D

#4 eronrules

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 11:39

too much water has passed under the bridge imho, it's now a flood (like in mid europe), no way to stop it. if Pirelli had silently introduced 2012 spec after china, much would've been gone un-noticed. now though, i dunno. as much as i like lotusF1, boullier has become the clog in the drainage, if he'd agree to implement kevlar belt at silverstone, atleast some of the tension would've been loosened. then again, why would he, his team has spend millions designing the FRIC suspension that utilizes these steel belt tires. and for all purposes, merc have lost it's power to enforce any issue, atleast till the IT has given it's verdict. it's all in shambles TBH.

#5 sopa

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 11:44

As always, somehow there will be a solution. They are hardly going to race on rims in 2014. Who believes that anyway?:D But what is the solution? If the argue so long nobody can design new tyres any more, will Pirelli pull their 2012 tyres out of the garage or Michelin takes their 2006 from the museum? :D

#6 Cavani

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 11:51

this is not a threat , they dont have enough testing to introduce 2014 tyres ,they require more testing , that has nothing to do with any stupid conspiracy theories , bernie , or mercedes own problem with the IT , don't mix things together

Edited by Cavani, 08 June 2013 - 11:51.


#7 rayburn

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 11:52

It is F1 politics as usual, Pirelli are just making sure that they don't get hit with a big penalty for the Merc test, and if they were, they would refuse to sign a contract for next year leaving F1 with a big hole to fill at short notice.

Rest assured, there will be a fudge compromise whereby all parties get off the hook with a strongly worded warning or suspended penalty.



#8 2ms

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 12:18

I believe that Pirelli wants to leave now. But it's as much their own fault as anyone else's that they are in the situation they are in. And I say this as a known Kimi fan, and Kimi has benefitted from Pirelli tires more than anyone else except the Ferraris.

Every year they have been party more and more to the campaign (most notably aggressively pushed for by LdM) to hinder teams with superior aerodynamics (ie Red Bull) by making more and more fragile tires. They finally went too far in Spain, where everyone was utterly hopeless except for the two Ferraris and one Lotus.

I would feel sorry for them. But they showed themselves in 2011 that there is no reason for the tires to be so hopeless. They brought it upon themselves by willfully participating in the effort to produce tires that hinder Red Bull relative to, for example, Ferrari.

Edited by 2ms, 08 June 2013 - 12:21.


#9 screamer76

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 12:26

As rumors indicate that Jean Todt is lobbying a change in tyre supplier, this might even help with a final decision. Pirelli had already messed up enough with providing an unfair advantage for Mercedes. It's understood that they need testing to develop a proper tyre, but the way it was decided by all the teams to provide them with a 2010 Renault car, and as it was also extended with Ferrari's 2011 car ran by client department with a test driver de la Rosa (which was also quite questionable due to 'secrecy'), was a quite reasonable approach. Maybe it was a subject for further negotiations with the teams (with a bit more transparency between all of them, maybe involving FIA) to run further testing, using other teams cars and test drivers and engineers, not involved in development current and future cars. What were they thinking running tests with Mercedes using current car and drivers? First, they said they tested prototype tyres for suggested 2013 season tyre upgrade, then, as the conflict escalated, they've switched to the version they tested 2014 tyres. Anyway, that's unfair to provide Mercedes with both - an advantage for this year, and maybe even worse, giving them information on 2014 tyres way ahead of prototype tyre testing available for other teams. As they speculate that they need more information on 2014 season regulations to provide a decent tyre, what relevance on this could be given by testing the current car?

Yes, it might be a tough challenge for a new supplier to step in as there isn't much time at all, but remembering the situation when Pirelli signed their contract, the time frames were even tighter.

Edited by screamer76, 08 June 2013 - 12:28.


#10 krapmeister

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 12:27

:wave:

#11 SpaMaster

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 12:29

They can quit if they want. I don't care. Lotus won't change its stance.

“Either we get the agreement of all the teams, which I think is unlikely,” he said, “or we will have to have some other ideas.”

Yeah well, pursue some other ideas.

They may be putting some pressure on FIA, just like the Lotus pressure is making to consider the glue option. But then in the whole testing-gate Pirelli's stake is much less than Mercedes. Pirelli is an outside contractor, tyre supplier. But Mercedes is a competitor in the sport.

I have been one of the biggest supporters of Pirelli regarding the tyre criticism this year. I have always said they are not to blame, and that's what FIA, FOM and teams wanted. Now, if they want to make all this scene after creating such a big mess with the Mercedes test scandal, I am least bothered. Let them get out.

Edited by SpaMaster, 08 June 2013 - 12:33.


#12 Longtimefan

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 12:30

Good riddance, they can take their cheese tyres and sod off.


#13 fabr68

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 12:41

It is F1 politics as usual, Pirelli are just making sure that they don't get hit with a big penalty for the Merc test, and if they were, they would refuse to sign a contract for next year leaving F1 with a big hole to fill at short notice.

Rest assured, there will be a fudge compromise whereby all parties get off the hook with a strongly worded warning or suspended penalty.


Why would Pirelli get a penalty? They are not competing in Formula 1.

#14 Dunder

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 12:55

Why would Pirelli get a penalty? They are not competing in Formula 1.


Are they in breach of their contract?
What penalties are prescribed for breaching their contract?
Can the IT decide the issue?

Who knows?

The fact that Pirelli/Hembery did not take part in yesterday's PC on advice from their lawyers suggests they are concerned though.


#15 study

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 12:56

I doubt it. It's too late into the season to find a new tyre supplier for 2014. Pirelli will probably stay for 2014 and then a new tyre supplier will have more time to come in in 2015.


What benefit does Pirelli have in that? Much more likely tell F1 to stuff it.

#16 Boing 2

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 12:57

Good riddance, they can take their cheese tyres and sod off.


To be replaced by what, Michelin cheese tyres? the FIA brief will remain the same, whoever is building the tyres.

#17 scheivlak

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 13:01

Why would Pirelli get a penalty? They are not competing in Formula 1.

"Service providers" ("prestataires") alos fall under the jurisdiction of the IT.

#18 Shiroo

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 13:02

To be replaced by what, Michelin cheese tyres? the FIA brief will remain the same, whoever is building the tyres.

This. Anyone who thinks that changing supplier will change how race looks like is blind. Pirelli could easly pull off 2008 Bridgestone tyres.

Btw you people whine about cheese tyres, yet they talk about 2 pit stop Canada or even possible 1 stop... CANADA guys.

#19 EthanM

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 13:02

To be replaced by what, Michelin cheese tyres? the FIA brief will remain the same, whoever is building the tyres.


the FIA brief is for 100km tyres (ie between 2 and 3 stops per race)
you can build tyres that do 100km while driving like a grandma cause if you don't they only last 20km
you can build tyres that do 100 racing kms

Pirelli builds the former, doesn't mean everybody else has to do the same

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#20 Nobody

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 13:05

:wave:

shut the door on your way out

#21 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 13:15

the FIA brief is for 100km tyres (ie between 2 and 3 stops per race)
you can build tyres that do 100km while driving like a grandma cause if you don't they only last 20km
you can build tyres that do 100 racing kms

Pirelli builds the former, doesn't mean everybody else has to do the same


If you build tyres that can do 100 racing kms, teams will try to save them and go 150 if it gives them a theoretical 1 sec advantage.

#22 e34

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 13:16

Offer market prices to two or more tyre manufacturers.

Offer teams freedom to change tyre provider every six races.

Get rid of the stupid two types of tyre per race.

And let'em race.

#23 Juggles

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 13:19

the FIA brief is for 100km tyres (ie between 2 and 3 stops per race)
you can build tyres that do 100km while driving like a grandma cause if you don't they only last 20km
you can build tyres that do 100 racing kms

Pirelli builds the former, doesn't mean everybody else has to do the same


Is it really possible to build tyres that do 100 racing kms at flat out, or close to flat out, speeds but can't do 200 km at a slightly slower pace? From the evidence of the last few years teams would always choose the second option. As others have said, they will always tend towards fewer stops unless refuelling makes a come back.

#24 DaddyCool

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 13:21

Bernie & the FIA sure did some splendid job:

-Fans are pissed off beacause of the tyres
-Pirelli is pissed off for all the flak they get for doing what they were told to
-Political warfare among teams (Merc/Ferrari test saga)
-Rival manufacturers refuse to consider F1 entry
-etc. etc.

These tyres surely brought some much needed entertainment to F1! :up:

#25 SpaMaster

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 13:21

If you build tyres that can do 100 racing kms, teams will try to save them and go 150 if it gives them a theoretical 1 sec advantage.

Exactly. You really have to give the teams no choice to save tyres at all, only then they will push. Build them a tyre that lasts for 200 km and make it compulsory for them to stop once. Then they will have other option but push. One could argue the problem is with the teams in that sense.

#26 eronrules

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 13:23

Offer market prices to two or more tyre manufacturers.

Offer teams freedom to change tyre provider every six races.

Get rid of the stupid two types of tyre per race.

And let'em race.


ah ... the good ol 'IDEAL WORLD' ... :kiss:

#27 EthanM

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 13:25

If you build tyres that can do 100 racing kms, teams will try to save them and go 150 if it gives them a theoretical 1 sec advantage.


so build tyres that do 80kms at full racing speeds and 150 at cruising. The problem with the Pirellis is anything over 3 laps at full blast the tyres are done, surely there is middle ground.

And Bridgestone's philosophy was also extreme, but at the other end. Bridgestone didn't like the "negative" press of tyres degrading so they built tyres that realistically, if you weren't forced to stop you could probably do 70% of the races on one set.


#28 goingthedistance

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 13:30

Good riddance indeed.

Not been a fan of them from the start, I don't think the product they've delivered has been as good or as consistent as they make out.

#29 johnmhinds

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 13:42

The teams will never be happy, they will always push for tyres that last longer.
That is how Bridgestone ended up with tyres that would last forever after the endless testing they did with Ferrari.

Pirelli's main mistake was letting the teams boss them around like this.

I've not seen any major out cry from the fans about a couple of tyres failing (we've seen something like less than 0.1% of the tyres fail this season?), they should have told the teams to suck it up and accept the tiny risk of the tyres failing every so often.

#30 SpaMaster

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 13:50

^ All Pirelli needed to have done is make sure their contract is fool-proof in terms of gag on teams on speaking out against tyres. They should have said, "We are doing it for you, if you don't like it you sort it out internally instead of smearing dirt on us in public". To a certain extent Ecclestone and FIA did that after Bahrain. But the message obviously did not reach one team and their drivers strong enough. But that's okay, because they are stupid enough to protest against the very test that was designed for their benefit and now Pirelli have gotten into such a soup over it that they won't change tyres at all this season.

#31 PoleMan

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 13:50

Michelin is in favor of a tyre war, which is why they didn't bid on the current tyre contract. I think they also see how well trying to please the FIA by making rapidly degrading tyres has worked out for Pirelli and their brand. :well:

Michelin have the whip hand here, NOT the FIA. With Pirelli threatening to leave and other mfrs. falling over themselves to say they WON'T be supplying F1 tyres, I think FIA and Bernie will be forced to kowtow to Michelin's demands. Certainly, proper testing will be part of that, with maybe the possibility of tyre competition down the road being the ultimate sweetener. Michelin has already shown they don't need F1.

Edited by PoleMan, 08 June 2013 - 13:53.


#32 SenorSjon

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 13:57

Perhaps this is, however unexpected, the way to end the stupid testing ban. Testing was a cheap way to visit F1 and see development. They won't let you see the wind tunnel ;)

And we always have the Avon(?) tires they use for old F1 racing left.

#33 fololo

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 13:57

Michelin is in favor of a tyre war, which is why they didn't bid on the current tyre contract. I think they also see how well trying to please the FIA by making rapidly degrading tyres has worked out for Pirelli and their brand. :well:

Michelin have the whip hand here, NOT the FIA. With Pirelli threatening to leave and other mfrs. falling over themselves to say they WON'T be supplying F1 tyres, I think FIA and Bernie will be forced to kowtow to Michelin's demands. Certainly, proper testing will be part of that, with maybe the possibility of tyre competition down the road being the ultimate sweetener. Michelin has already shown they don't need F1.

Im sure the ferrari is a better aero car than Redbull, considering all aero tracks they were 1sec faster than redbull

#34 SpaMaster

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 13:58

Anyone who provides tyres next year should have this in their contract - The moment anyone involved in the competition criticizes our tyres, we have the option to pull out.

That way the criticism would be directed at the right people and those who carry out directives won't become the scapegoat.

#35 jjcale

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 14:11

Dont let the door hit you on the way out, Pirelli!

:wave:

#36 Nemo1965

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 14:18

Anyone who says: 'Goodbye, don't let the door hit on the way out', is not seeing the whole picture I think. The problem is: when a tire-supplier can't test tyres, how is going to deliver tires that both satisfiy the FIA and the teams? Furthermore: how can a supplier - be it tyres or ecu's - change problems with a product when they need approval of all the teams?

The FIA should set the rules, not the teams. The FIA should set a test-day for the tyres, say to the teams: 'Be there or be square', and let Pirelli change the tyres accordingly.

PS EDIT: JJCale, I swear I typed this post BEFORE I saw your post!

Edited by Nemo1965, 08 June 2013 - 14:19.


#37 Paco

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 14:28

I for one have really started to like the idea of completely opening up the tire situation and bringing in 3 suppliers and let teams decide but leave open market... Teams can switch between suppliers whenever they want, no locked in contracts so if a team after 3 races want to switch to another supplier so be it

#38 EthanM

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 14:33

Anyone who says: 'Goodbye, don't let the door hit on the way out', is not seeing the whole picture I think. The problem is: when a tire-supplier can't test tyres, how is going to deliver tires that both satisfiy the FIA and the teams? Furthermore: how can a supplier - be it tyres or ecu's - change problems with a product when they need approval of all the teams?

The FIA should set the rules, not the teams. The FIA should set a test-day for the tyres, say to the teams: 'Be there or be square', and let Pirelli change the tyres accordingly.

PS EDIT: JJCale, I swear I typed this post BEFORE I saw your post!


for that to happen Pirelli have to request it. But as we have found out in the last week Pirelli DON'T WANT IT. They don't want to do a big test, they want small individual tests with 1 car per test.

#39 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 14:34

I for one have really started to like the idea of completely opening up the tire situation and bringing in 3 suppliers and let teams decide but leave open market... Teams can switch between suppliers whenever they want, no locked in contracts so if a team after 3 races want to switch to another supplier so be it


Good luck finding the tyre suppliers willing to do that. You enter into a multi million dollar development program, and if you are not the best tyre in the first three races, your team partners abandon you instead of working with you to improve together, followed by headlines "$brand sucks so much nobody wants to use their tyres".

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 08 June 2013 - 14:35.


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#40 Sakae

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 14:41

Pirelli's main mistake was letting the teams boss them around like this.

1. Teams actually invest THEIR money into this, and THEY should have major, and the only say so what kind of tires they want. No one else.
2. FiA shall police merely adherence to an agreement.
3. Voting - 51% is sufficient. If draw, commercial rep's vote shall be added.

Teams cannot be held hostage to a single voice. Sauber's TP insists on no tire change, whilst her driver (Hulk) is crying publicly about crap car he has. People lost focus over what is important in their petty squabling. No teams should be held hostage to Lotus or someone like that. That's not democracy, but SA dictatorship.

Edited by Sakae, 08 June 2013 - 14:42.


#41 Nemo1965

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 14:44

for that to happen Pirelli have to request it. But as we have found out in the last week Pirelli DON'T WANT IT. They don't want to do a big test, they want small individual tests with 1 car per test.


Which confirms my post and that of Sakae. Teams, FIA and suppliers are sort of trying to blackmail eachother to get whatever they want or prevent what they don't want.

I've said it before and I will say it again: why oh why did the FIA not organise a tyre-test itself? Why try to leave it over to the teams and Pirelli? It's like I write a letter to the council asking if I can build a wall in my garden. And the council writes back" 'Sure, but be sure that your neighbours are okay about it.'

Edited by Nemo1965, 08 June 2013 - 14:48.


#42 trogggy

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 14:48

Which confirms my post and that of Sakae. Teams, FIA and suppliers are sort of trying to blackmail eachother to get whatever they want or don't want.

I've said it before and I will say it again: why oh why did the FIA not organise a tyre-test itself? Why try to leave it over to the teams and Pirelli? It's like I write a letter to the council asking if I can build a wall in my garden. And the council writes back" 'Sure, but be sure that your neighbours are okay about it.'

Because they can't just re-write the rules mid-season?

#43 Atreiu

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 14:53

I doubt it. It's too late into the season to find a new tyre supplier for 2014. Pirelli will probably stay for 2014 and then a new tyre supplier will have more time to come in in 2015.


There is no contract for 2014, IIRC. Pirelli will not stay for sentimental reasons for a year only after all the mess they have been into this year.

Edited by Atreiu, 08 June 2013 - 15:09.


#44 Nemo1965

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 14:54

Because they can't just re-write the rules mid-season?


But the FIA can do that - on grounds of safety, that always has been possible.

EDIT: But that's not the point, izzit? The point is that Pirelli is threatening to quit F1 and some posters are applauding that... with which, methinks, they are vastly underestimating how messed up the tyre and rules-situation is WITHOUT Pirelli, testgate andsoforth...

Edited by Nemo1965, 08 June 2013 - 14:56.


#45 fabr68

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 15:01

Are they in breach of their contract?
What penalties are prescribed for breaching their contract?
Can the IT decide the issue?

Who knows?

The fact that Pirelli/Hembery did not take part in yesterday's PC on advice from their lawyers suggests they are concerned though.


As far as we know it is MERCEDES the one going to face a FIA Tribunal for breaking specific Sporting Regulations code. Pirelli has not broken any code as they are not competing in Formula 1 and also they are not facing any FIA Tribunal.

#46 scheivlak

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 15:09

As far as we know it is MERCEDES the one going to face a FIA Tribunal for breaking specific Sporting Regulations code. Pirelli has not broken any code as they are not competing in Formula 1 and also they are not facing any FIA Tribunal.

As I posted earlier Pirelli can be brought to the tribunal as well as a supplier. And the FIA has decided "To bring the case concerning the tyre testing session carried out by Pirelli and Team Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 in Barcelona on 15-17 May 2013 before the FIA International Tribunal because it results from the inquiry that the conditions of this testing may constitute a breach of the applicable FIA rules." - so Pirelli is mentioned as well as an organiser of the test.

#47 SpaMaster

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 15:16

1. Teams actually invest THEIR money into this, and THEY should have major, and the only say so what kind of tires they want. No one else.

No one else? Sorry, this is FIA's series. That is contracted to Ecclestone. If teams have that much power, they can break away and form their own series, but there is a reason why that has not happened. Says a lot about how much say they have in all this, doesn't it?

2. FiA shall police merely adherence to an agreement.
3. Voting - 51% is sufficient. If draw, commercial rep's vote shall be added.

Teams are just one part of the earlier F1 commission (during the times of Concorde Agreement). Now even that is not there. Even during that time, FIA is the one proposing the rule. F1 teams can only veto it.

Teams cannot be held hostage to a single voice. Sauber's TP insists on no tire change, whilst her driver (Hulk) is crying publicly about crap car he has. People lost focus over what is important in their petty squabling. No teams should be held hostage to Lotus or someone like that. That's not democracy, but SA dictatorship.

This is not about one team holding hostage of others. It is in the regulations. Mid-season changes are not possible without unanimous approval from all teams. And rightly so. It would of course be different if it is about future regulations. That FIA has full control on what regulations to enforce. Lotus or Sauber won't be able to do squat about that, I guarantee you.

#48 Dunder

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 15:18

As far as we know it is MERCEDES the one going to face a FIA Tribunal for breaking specific Sporting Regulations code. Pirelli has not broken any code as they are not competing in Formula 1 and also they are not facing any FIA Tribunal.


All parties are bound by more than just the Sporting Regulation, including suppliers and the FIA itself.

The FIA statement makes it pretty clear that this isn't just an FIA/Mercedes hearing.

'To bring the case concerning the tyre testing session carried out by Pirelli and Team Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 in Barcelona on 15-17 May 2013 before the FIA International Tribunal because it results from the inquiry that the conditions of this testing may constitute a breach of the applicable FIA rules.

'The FIA International Tribunal is called upon to make a decision in compliance with the FIA Judicial and Disciplinary Rules.


#49 EthanM

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 15:23

Which confirms my post and that of Sakae. Teams, FIA and suppliers are sort of trying to blackmail eachother to get whatever they want or prevent what they don't want.

I've said it before and I will say it again: why oh why did the FIA not organise a tyre-test itself? Why try to leave it over to the teams and Pirelli? It's like I write a letter to the council asking if I can build a wall in my garden. And the council writes back" 'Sure, but be sure that your neighbours are okay about it.'


Pirelli made a choice. They had working tyres last year, they chose to meddle with the construction and the compounds with the knowledge they wouldn't get a chance to really test them. And I promise you, they didn't make that choice in the name of helping the sport. They made that choice because they knew it would keep Pirelli front and center as far as talk about F1 goes. Now they are crying cause that choice backfired on them. The solution isn't to go hide in random tracks and dispense testing mileage to teams under at best cloudy supervision cause Pirelli don't feel like producing 100 prototype tyres and they just want to produce 8.

#50 jjcale

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 15:24

Anyone who says: 'Goodbye, don't let the door hit on the way out', is not seeing the whole picture I think. The problem is: when a tire-supplier can't test tyres, how is going to deliver tires that both satisfiy the FIA and the teams? Furthermore: how can a supplier - be it tyres or ecu's - change problems with a product when they need approval of all the teams?

The FIA should set the rules, not the teams. The FIA should set a test-day for the tyres, say to the teams: 'Be there or be square', and let Pirelli change the tyres accordingly.

PS EDIT: JJCale, I swear I typed this post BEFORE I saw your post!


:lol:

Dont worry about it... I am being deliberately childish ... but the situation with these Pirelli tyres brings out the worst in me - so its better, if only for my sake, that Pirelli moves and ruins some other racing series. :p

But to be serious, Pirelli have been very stupid. Just because someone asks you to jump off a cliff does not mean that you have to do it... and that is what they have done. Producing cheese tyres was always going to harm their brand. When asked they should have said no.... I have no sympathy for them.

Edited by jjcale, 08 June 2013 - 15:27.