Sebastian Vettel: how does he stack up against the greats?
#1
Posted 09 June 2013 - 20:20
What puzzles me is that Vettel is genuinely disliked by a lot of fans and his performances are often ascribed to the rocketship that is the Red Bull. He has the same amount of WDC's as Senna, Lauda, Stewart and so on, but I think that those who criticize Vettel do have a point. I think that he should move away from Red Bull eventually, in order to show that he can also cope with a different environment and a less competitive car. Part of Senna's or Schumacher's brilliance was down to the fact that they also proved in lesser cars that they were very special drivers. This performing in adverse conditions was proof imo that Lauda in 70s, Senna/Prost in the 80s and Schumacher in the 90s/00s were indeed the best drivers of their generation. Vettel is no doubt a very special driver, but I'm not really sure how to look at his performances from a historical perspective. Any thoughts on this matter?
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#2
Posted 09 June 2013 - 20:23
#3
Posted 09 June 2013 - 20:23
#4
Posted 09 June 2013 - 20:26
Nothing against the guy at all but if it cruises to another easy WDC then I find it rather depressing.
#5
Posted 09 June 2013 - 20:29
For once I wish someone proved that rest of them are riding wheelbarrows. Ferrari is currently best car, and Alonso and Massa got beaten in Canada.Still need to see him in a struggling car to fully judge him. He's had the best car for four straight years now.
#6
Posted 09 June 2013 - 20:32
He's very good, but I'd like to see him for a season or two in another car or have a true equal teammate that is allowed to attack him.
Nothing against the guy at all but if it cruises to another easy WDC then I find it rather depressing.
He didn't look bad when he was in the STR.
#7
Posted 09 June 2013 - 20:32
bloody snooze-fest watching him stroll through these WDC's he's collecting, but it's not a fault that he's making it look so easy
now he's added a bit of arrogance into the mixture as well, I'm sure he'll do just fine...
#8
Posted 09 June 2013 - 20:35
#9
Posted 09 June 2013 - 20:37
#10
Posted 09 June 2013 - 20:39
Maybe we will see him against Kimi next season, which should shut up some of the naysayers.
#11
Posted 09 June 2013 - 20:41
Will never happenMaybe we will see him against Kimi next season, which should shut up some of the naysayers.
Edited by sharo, 09 June 2013 - 20:41.
#12
Posted 09 June 2013 - 20:41
4 years ? 2012 was for Macca and this yeear it's for Ferrari.Still need to see him in a struggling car to fully judge him. He's had the best car for four straight years now.
#13
Posted 09 June 2013 - 20:41
For me, his 2009. season wasn't really that impressive so perhaps many fans still remember that 2009. as nothing special. As opposed to Hamilton who was brilliant already in his first season. But looking at things like this is very, very subjective and I think he will be given a lot more fully deserved credit once he retires.
#14
Posted 09 June 2013 - 20:43
#15
Posted 09 June 2013 - 20:45
It depends on being in the right car at the right time. Vettel has had it since mid-2009 until now. 4 years now. Good for him, unlucky for everyone else and their fans.
#16
Posted 09 June 2013 - 20:46
As you know, he was in a midfield car in 2008.Still need to see him in a struggling car to fully judge him. He's had the best car for four straight years now.
2009 I would say RB was the 2nd best car (at the very least, they had a lot of competition when they got the upper hand in the second half).
2010 he had the fastest car, but far less reliable than others (similar to Hamilton 2012).
2011 he had the best car.
2012 he had the overall best car. Slower than McLaren, but more reliable. Faster than Ferrari, but less reliable. However, it was still a close and hard fought WDC against a very good Alonso.
2013, the pecking order is not even clear yet, but so far he is leading through consistency and not dominance.
(All of this is just my opinion.)
Throughout the years since 2009, he probably had the best car on average, but at lots of races it was clearly not and he still performed great. Any criticism based on the "best car" argument is, therefore, not substantial.
Honestly, what do you want to see? Of course, he will perform worse when the car is worse, but we had enough races that show that he'll usually still maximise the potential of the material he has.
#17
Posted 09 June 2013 - 20:47
#18
Posted 09 June 2013 - 20:48
#19
Posted 09 June 2013 - 20:49
Only 1 out of 3 WDCs may be called easy in my opinion (and even then it is questionable since his team mate was not second despite finishing all but one race).Nothing against the guy at all but if it cruises to another easy WDC then I find it rather depressing.
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#20
Posted 09 June 2013 - 20:50
#21
Posted 09 June 2013 - 20:52
I want to see what he does when things don't go his way for a full season, like Hamilton and Alonso have had in 2009. How he behaves, what he can do on track etc. You can't really judge him on 2008, because it really was his rookie season.Honestly, what do you want to see? Of course, he will perform worse when the car is worse, but we had enough races that show that he'll usually still maximise the potential of the material he has.
#22
Posted 09 June 2013 - 20:53
It's not just that he's driving the fastest car, he's also comprehensively beating his team-mate. He's one of the best, no question.
Webber is definitely past is best (2009 and 2020) but Vettel still has shown there are a lot more to his results and achievements than being in the best team.
This thread is entirely premature, by the way.
#23
Posted 09 June 2013 - 20:53
#24
Posted 09 June 2013 - 20:55
#25
Posted 09 June 2013 - 20:56
He doesn't need to move away from Red Bull to enhance his reputation, he just needs to do what Fangio, Clark, Prost, Moss, Senna, Stewart and other greats did, and have a world-class team-mate with equal treatment.He has the same amount of WDC's as Senna, Lauda, Stewart and so on, but I think that those who criticize Vettel do have a point. I think that he should move away from Red Bull eventually, in order to show that he can also cope with a different environment and a less competitive car.
Then everyone can see whether it's his talent or Newey's that's the dominant factor.
Surely he has nothing to fear if he is really that good. After all, Fangio, Clark, Prost, Moss, Senna, Stewart and others didn't.
#26
Posted 09 June 2013 - 20:57
I want to see what he does when things don't go his way for a full season, like Hamilton and Alonso have had in 2009. How he behaves, what he can do on track etc. You can't really judge him on 2008, because it really was his rookie season.
He will do excatly like them...whining, blaming the car etc until things turn better.
#27
Posted 09 June 2013 - 21:00
#28
Posted 09 June 2013 - 21:02
He doesn't need to move away from Red Bull to enhance his reputation, he just needs to do what Fangio, Clark, Prost, Moss, Senna, Stewart and other greats did, and have a world-class team-mate with equal treatment.
Then everyone can see whether it's his talent or Newey's that's the dominant factor.
Surely he has nothing to fear if he is really that good. After all, Fangio, Clark, Prost, Moss, Senna, Stewart and others didn't.
But how would you rate Schumacher in that case? He has never had a teammate with equal treatment, but I think most people rate him as one of the greatest the sport has ever seen. Whether he is the greatest remains debatable.
#29
Posted 09 June 2013 - 21:05
#30
Posted 09 June 2013 - 21:08
#31
Posted 09 June 2013 - 21:08
Just not true. Last year overall the mclaren was the best car. And he proves many times, that he can race like hell in "equal" cars compared to his opponents...Come back to me on this in 10 years, or whenever he retires. Will he beat Schumacher's record of 7 WDCs? I think yes. His best peers, Alonso and Hamilton, are a few years older than him, and the new generation coming through is useless. If he keeps having the best car, he'll keep winning WDCs, and logic says he's bound to get a very fast car in at least 4 or 5 of the next 10 years.
#32
Posted 09 June 2013 - 21:10
Kind of like Statistically Fernando Torres is the best player in the world right now...
What a mediocre striker against the best driver of the last three years?
#33
Posted 09 June 2013 - 21:14
Well if Kimi will go to RBR next year we shall see. I expect him to wipe the floor with Kimi though. Just a gut feeling. Kimi is strong, no doubts about it, but it will be Raikkonen first season at RBR etc. And tbh I rate Vettel a bit higher than Raikkonen (though both are top rate). Vettel seems to have insane amount of luck and perfect timing for everything. And he always finds these 0.5sec in quali out of nowhere
Kimi, as fantastic as he is right now, is way passed his peak now imo. A 2005 Kimi vs Vettel would be an immense battle. Kimi and Alonso are more complete racers now but they're slightly slower than they were when younger. They don't have that mentality of keeping the throttle floored to the ground at all times anymore. I guess a wise head and experience does that to you. Contrast that with Vettel, who drives an F1 car like an adrenaline junkie, even today he was kissing barriers when he had so much to lose.
Edited by apexpredator, 09 June 2013 - 21:14.
#34
Posted 09 June 2013 - 21:15
he has a great car and a rubbish team mate so it's hard to judge him.
Couch potatoes calling any of these top drivers "rubbish" are a disgrace...
Sorry.
#35
Posted 09 June 2013 - 21:15
He didn't look bad when he was in the STR.
#36
Posted 09 June 2013 - 21:15
Perhaps there is no such thing as the best ever driver because I'd probably say the same thing about all of them, if I watched them drive in each era.
#37
Posted 09 June 2013 - 21:18
#38
Posted 09 June 2013 - 21:18
I rate Schumacher below all those mentioned names. In fact I'd probably rank Schumacher below Vettel.But how would you rate Schumacher in that case? He has never had a teammate with equal treatment, but I think most people rate him as one of the greatest the sport has ever seen. Whether he is the greatest remains debatable.
Vettel's run is putting Schumacher's run into better context. Schumacher really only ever had Hakkinen to contend with, and even Hill in inferior equipment spooked him into cheating. Then Alonso had his number much more than Alonso has ever had Vettel's. Vettel is showing how easy it is to rack up impressive statistics in an era of bulletproof reliability and one dominant car - and Vettel doesn't have the FIA fixing the rules for him. One wonders what the position would have been had Red Bull been throwing money and Newey at its team from 2000 rather than 2008.
#39
Posted 09 June 2013 - 21:18
I just wish he would let Fernando win a little more.
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#40
Posted 09 June 2013 - 21:19
I don't think he's an alltime great or anything, but he's definately a great driver. In the right place, at the right time. And he deserves his WDC's.
Perhaps there is no such thing as the best ever driver because I'd probably say the same thing about all of them, if I watched them drive in each era.
But couldn't you argue this about every WDC? Look at Mansell, who could have easily become a double or even triple world champion had it not been for the insane competition during those days (or that puncture in Adelaide for that matter). Or look at Jochen Rindt or Jim Clark, who were blindingly fast but all died prematurely?
#41
Posted 09 June 2013 - 21:20
Just not true. Last year overall the mclaren was the best car. And he proves many times, that he can race like hell in "equal" cars compared to his opponents...
Alright then, best car/team combination.
#42
Posted 09 June 2013 - 21:21
That's true but it's just really hard to compare different eras. This current era is one which suits Vettel in terms of the cars, and regs etc.I rate Schumacher below all those mentioned names. In fact I'd probably rank Schumacher below Vettel.
Vettel's run is putting Schumacher's run into better context. Schumacher really only ever had Hakkinen to contend with, and even Hill in inferior equipment spooked him into cheating. Then Alonso had his number much more than Alonso has ever had Vettel's. Vettel is showing how easy it is to rack up impressive statistics in an era of bulletproof reliability and one dominant car - and Vettel doesn't have the FIA fixing the rules for him. One wonders what the position would have been had Red Bull been throwing money and Newey at its team from 2000 rather than 2008.
#43
Posted 09 June 2013 - 21:24
Why suddenly would Vettel need to prove himself outside Red Bull, having won in a Torro Rosso.
Vettel is shaping up to be an alltime great.
#44
Posted 09 June 2013 - 21:26
i don't need to see him in another team to know he's the very best in a strong field of drivers. I believe that if he was in the Ferrari or the Merc he'd still be winning. He's that good.
I rate him in Schumacher's class, and I rate Shumi in the top three.
Just my opinion mind.
#45
Posted 09 June 2013 - 21:26
#46
Posted 09 June 2013 - 21:27
Schumacher needed Brawn and Byrne...........................
Schumacher won 8 times in a Barnard designed Ferrari.
#47
Posted 09 June 2013 - 21:27
But that could also be, because you followed those drivers more at that time. In 2010, things didn't really go Vettels way for a long time. Even at the start of 2012, it was far from perfect. He does the same as other good drivers in that case: do as good as you with the material you have and try to improve the situation. (Of course his results would be worse than in the best car and he can do no miracles and win the WDC in a midfield car.)I want to see what he does when things don't go his way for a full season, like Hamilton and Alonso have had in 2009. How he behaves, what he can do on track etc. You can't really judge him on 2008, because it really was his rookie season.
#48
Posted 09 June 2013 - 21:34
Vettel is right up there with the best of them. He's making the Red Bull look very special, but a better reflection of how good it really is, are the results Webber is getting in the same car. Until Mark ended up playing wing man to Seb he was rated as one of the quickest guys out there, and he has been totally dominated by the young German.
i don't need to see him in another team to know he's the very best in a strong field of drivers. I believe that if he was in the Ferrari or the Merc he'd still be winning. He's that good.
I rate him in Schumacher's class, and I rate Shumi in the top three.
Just my opinion mind.
He is making the RB car look special ? The RB car is special , in fact it has been the best car since 2010 to the present
#49
Posted 09 June 2013 - 21:36
So why Webber never wons the 2nd place in the dwc, when the car is so much better than the rest?He is making the RB car look special ? The RB car is special , in fact it has been the best car since 2010 to the present
#50
Posted 09 June 2013 - 21:38
I suppose people just don't like another dominant German. Shame.
Edited by Olly F1, 09 June 2013 - 21:41.