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RIP the Canadian Track Marshal who died today


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#201 Imperial

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 12:26

So every car stopping on circuit now requires a SC, and they still use a crane to get the car onto the flatbed.


Well, this didn't occur during a race, so your suggestion of the use of an SC would have been academic.

Anyway...they could use stationery long-reach cranes (as at Monaco) during races to lift the cars clear of the track, then place them on flatbeds for removal afterwards. They would have used a flatbed from halfway round the track. In hindsight they let complacency get the better of them and used a tractor-crane simply because they were close to the pitlane.

Thinking about if they'd reached the pitlane safely, they'd then have to get all the way to Sauber with all those hundreds of people hanging around. That surely shouldn't be allowed anyway.

Edited by Imperial, 11 June 2013 - 12:29.


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#202 Imperial

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 12:28

And honestly, something like a flat bed would not have been practical in that case. The crash happened coming out of the pits IIRC, not a far drive at all.


Well, that's my point. They didn't use a flatbed for recovery for the exact reason of proximity to the pitlane and look what the result was...

You don't need three or four marshals walking in front of a flatbed truck steadying the car, with a tractor-crane you do.

#203 Henrik B

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 12:45

You drop your radio. Is it worth the risk? I'd be looking at it thinking "It's only a radio...". Even if it was my mobile phone I'd do an instantaneous risk assessment of "this isn't worth the million to one odds that I slip..."


Oh no you don't. You drop something, you grab for it. It's basic human nature and there are countless studies on for the most part humans CAN'T do risk assessment, especially not on the fly. There's been studies where subjects make quick decisions while brain activity are measured and it shows that the higher functions don't even engage until after the decision is made. What you do is rationalize afterwards and convince yourself that was your reasoning all along. It's the way we are wired. You can try but you can't convince me that you are the unique snowflake that always make the correct decision - for instance, if you ever has decided to answer the phone in your car you've decided that call was worth the MASSIVE increased risk you have an accident.

Understanding this has led to major safety improvements in the industry. You can't count on people to consciously always make the safe decisions or follow procedures, you have to have safety built-in.

#204 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 12:53

Maybe I am just a beautiful snowflake, my pavlovian response isn't to answer the phone the moment it rings :p

#205 muramasa

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 13:11

Oh no you don't. You drop something, you grab for it. It's basic human nature and there are countless studies on for the most part humans CAN'T do risk assessment, especially not on the fly. There's been studies where subjects make quick decisions while brain activity are measured and it shows that the higher functions don't even engage until after the decision is made. What you do is rationalize afterwards and convince yourself that was your reasoning all along. It's the way we are wired. You can try but you can't convince me that you are the unique snowflake that always make the correct decision - for instance, if you ever has decided to answer the phone in your car you've decided that call was worth the MASSIVE increased risk you have an accident.

Understanding this has led to major safety improvements in the industry. You can't count on people to consciously always make the safe decisions or follow procedures, you have to have safety built-in.

indeed.
safety procedures and measures at the scene are very basic and often look quite comical to outsiders. But there's knowledge, intelligence and sacrifice in there.

From climbers to carpenters to operators to pilot to whatever, skilled veterans make extremely basic mistake with serious consequence. There're plenty cases out there. Case study and statistics for cause of accidents for any genre are widely available, and if you look at it most cases are such a basic, small mistake, or accumulation of it. In hindsight and from outside it looks so trivial, but people with experience and skill make small mistake, which leads to other small mistake then go into snowball. It's just like that. "why on earth...", "I would...", "how come...", that's what EVERYONE says and thinks. Next time it's your turn, my turn.



#206 ExFlagMan

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 13:29

indeed.
safety procedures and measures at the scene are very basic and often look quite comical to outsiders. But there's knowledge, intelligence and sacrifice in there.

From climbers to carpenters to operators to pilot to whatever, skilled veterans make extremely basic mistake with serious consequence. There're plenty cases out there. Case study and statistics for cause of accidents for any genre are widely available, and if you look at it most cases are such a basic, small mistake, or accumulation of it. In hindsight and from outside it looks so trivial, but people with experience and skill make small mistake, which leads to other small mistake then go into snowball. It's just like that. "why on earth...", "I would...", "how come...", that's what EVERYONE says and thinks. Next time it's your turn, my turn.

Especially when you have spent about 30 of the last 60 hrs in the high-adrenaline situation trackside at a GP. Concentration tends to drop off towards the end of that period, especially once the cars stop circulating.

#207 Nemo1965

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 13:31

Especially when you have spent about 30 of the last 60 hrs in the high-adrenaline situation trackside at a GP. Concentration tends to drop off towards the end of that period, especially once the cars stop circulating.


Exactly. Like mountainclimbers usually fall during the descent.



#208 Jackman

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 15:05

Maybe I am just a beautiful snowflake, my pavlovian response isn't to answer the phone the moment it rings :p

You certainly are, but that's not the reason why :p

#209 cheesy poofs

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 17:21

http://montreal.ctvn...g-fan-1.1319544

#210 David M. Kane

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 17:44

http://montreal.ctvn...g-fan-1.1319544


Cheesy Poofs this is so sad. It just shows how dangerous and how intense F1 is on all levels. The car was in a dangerous place and I think they were in a bit of a panic to get it out of there. I also feel bad for the tractor driver. Rarely does someone go off in that spot.

Tomorrow is his Birthday, so lets all say an extra prayer or thought for both of them.


#211 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 17:46

It happened after the race. It didn't even happen at the scene of accident but further up the pit exit.

#212 SamH123

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 18:01

From the photos it seemed the crane was moving way too fast

The marshalls were clearly jogging to keep up with it. There would be no rush at that point so it seems a breach of safety for the crane to be speeding like that. If it wasn't moving so fast the guy probably wouldn't have tripped or wouldn't have got properly run over

It would be nice if BBC/Sky can do a tribute to him and marshalls in general in Silverstone



#213 ExFlagMan

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 19:52

From the photos it seemed the crane was moving way too fast

The marshalls were clearly jogging to keep up with it. There would be no rush at that point so it seems a breach of safety for the crane to be speeding like that. If it wasn't moving so fast the guy probably wouldn't have tripped or wouldn't have got properly run over

It would be nice if BBC/Sky can do a tribute to him and marshalls in general in Silverstone

Except that the teams always want the car back as soon as possible as they are paranoid about anyone trying to take photos of what is under the bodywork etc
Also it is not unknown for spectators to halp themselves to souvenirs.

#214 EthanM

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 20:19

From the photos it seemed the crane was moving way too fast

The marshalls were clearly jogging to keep up with it. There would be no rush at that point so it seems a breach of safety for the crane to be speeding like that. If it wasn't moving so fast the guy probably wouldn't have tripped or wouldn't have got properly run over

It would be nice if BBC/Sky can do a tribute to him and marshalls in general in Silverstone


I doubt it was "moving too fast" ... the crane with the dangling Sauber actually passed right behind Hill/Lazenby as they were interviewing Adrian Newey in the pitlane maybe 5 minutes after the podium interviews were over. It was moving slowly and it was preceded by a a couple of security types moving people out of the way although presumably at that point the accident had already happened.

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#215 Jyllenberg

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 20:31

Very sad and unpleasantly surprising accident. My deepest condolences to marshals family and friends.


This case was not race related, but as a track official myself I know wll the dangers marshalls are facing.

In finnish national races I had to run away couple times when cars have suddenly veered off the track towards relatively poorly covered marshall post at speeds over 200km/h. Also flying car parts (tires, springs etc.) are familiar objects in races time by time. Maybe I have been lucky so far....

#216 cheesy poofs

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 20:49

I doubt it was "moving too fast" ... the crane with the dangling Sauber actually passed right behind Hill/Lazenby as they were interviewing Adrian Newey in the pitlane maybe 5 minutes after the podium interviews were over. It was moving slowly and it was preceded by a a couple of security types moving people out of the way although presumably at that point the accident had already happened.

Posted Image


It was the same crane involved in the accident. The crane and Sauber were left at the exit of the pit lane while the podium ceremonies were held. It was only after that it was allowed to continue down the pit lane. So no matter how fast they wanted the car brought back, it was held up there...

Edited by cheesy poofs, 11 June 2013 - 20:49.


#217 MP422

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 21:28

Cheesy Poofs this is so sad. It just shows how dangerous and how intense F1 is on all levels. The car was in a dangerous place and I think they were in a bit of a panic to get it out of there. I also feel bad for the tractor driver. Rarely does someone go off in that spot.

Tomorrow is his Birthday, so lets all say an extra prayer or thought for both of them.


It's a tragedy but really had nothing to do with the danger and intensity of F1. Getting run over by a utility vehicle can happen anywhere in the world.

#218 SamH123

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 21:55

Except that the teams always want the car back as soon as possible as they are paranoid about anyone trying to take photos of what is under the bodywork etc
Also it is not unknown for spectators to halp themselves to souvenirs.


But once it's on the crane no one is helping themselves to souvenirs, nor is the speed really going to change the chance of people getting photos of the underside that much.


I doubt it was "moving too fast" ... the crane with the dangling Sauber actually passed right behind Hill/Lazenby as they were interviewing Adrian Newey in the pitlane maybe 5 minutes after the podium interviews were over. It was moving slowly and it was preceded by a a couple of security types moving people out of the way although presumably at that point the accident had already happened.


I was just surprised by the picture - the marshalls clearly have quite a jog going on and I'm surprised they were travelling that fast, it might make the car swing around more as well
https://pbs.twimg.co...A0PzR.jpg:large (not graphic)

Maybe the speed here is standard for the situation but from now going a bit slower surely seems wise

#219 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 22:17

But once it's on the crane no one is helping themselves to souvenirs, nor is the speed really going to change the chance of people getting photos of the underside that much.




I was just surprised by the picture - the marshalls clearly have quite a jog going on and I'm surprised they were travelling that fast, it might make the car swing around more as well
https://pbs.twimg.co...A0PzR.jpg:large (not graphic)

Maybe the speed here is standard for the situation but from now going a bit slower surely seems wise



It does look like they are moving quickly. Such a tragedy.

In that picture by his knee, is that the radio falling? Or is it part of the tractor?

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 11 June 2013 - 22:18.


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#220 cheesy poofs

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 22:19

But once it's on the crane no one is helping themselves to souvenirs, nor is the speed really going to change the chance of people getting photos of the underside that much.




I was just surprised by the picture - the marshalls clearly have quite a jog going on and I'm surprised they were travelling that fast, it might make the car swing around more as well
https://pbs.twimg.co...A0PzR.jpg:large (not graphic)

Maybe the speed here is standard for the situation but from now going a bit slower surely seems wise


You can see the marshall's radio dangling and about to fall...

#221 g1n

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 22:37

http://montreal.ctvn...g-fan-1.1319544


Notice how, f1 "fans" are too concerned with running towards the podium, majority do not even look or even care at the ambulance fast approaching: "oh a dead guy, who does he think he is, I want to see the podium!!!"...pathetic

#222 David M. Kane

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 22:40

You can see the marshall's radio dangling and about to fall...


That's why they are called accidents. Good vision on that point Cheesy Poofs. Clearly it was the rear wheel so the crane driver was looking at the race car. Clearly the FIA needs to rethink their procedures or something along those lines.

Yes, I hope they have a Tribute at Silverstone too.


#223 Brother Fox

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 23:18

Fair enough, but having seem more of the setup of the incident (Sutton inadvertantly had photos from just before it happened), why was the guy standing so close? If you've got a moving crane, even a small one, with a car dangling off the front of it wouldn't you give it a bit of room? I would, but I'm paranoid. In a Murphy's Law sense. Do you *have* to be so close to it that you can drop your radio in front of the wheels? Let's say the procedure means you have to be. You drop your radio. Is it worth the risk? I'd be looking at it thinking "It's only a radio...". Even if it was my mobile phone I'd do an instantaneous risk assessment of "this isn't worth the million to one odds that I slip..."

And that's coming from someone who didn't just spend three days in an environment where I needed to be hyper-aware.

Thats all correct, but thats with the benefit of calm thinking hypothetically or in hindsight.
People do make stupid mistakes unfortunately.

I knew a bloke who died in a contstruction accident in very similar circumstances, just substitute radio for sunglasses. Most people have the luxury of living to regret their stupid decisions.
What it does do is make you realise how much respect you need to give a moving vehicle or machinery.

#224 cheesy poofs

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 00:48

Notice how, f1 "fans" are too concerned with running towards the podium, majority do not even look or even care at the ambulance fast approaching: "oh a dead guy, who does he think he is, I want to see the podium!!!"...pathetic


Other than the people who actually witnessed the incident, no one else had any idea at the events that had just unfolded close to them. These fans were just hoping to catch a glimpse of the podium ceremonies.




#225 Jimisgod

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 04:18



If these are F1 supplied cranes then they should be fitted with a speed limiter and sensors and cameras.

If someone gets too close the sensors beep and the machine is slowed.

#226 ExFlagMan

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 07:01

If these are F1 supplied cranes then they should be fitted with a speed limiter and sensors and cameras.

If someone gets too close the sensors beep and the machine is slowed.

You really think Bernie is going to ship several of these round the world to each GP?

The vehicle and driver was probably hired from some local plant hire outfit. I very much doubt that the driver would have had very much chance to lift or move an F1 car, or any single seater for that matter before the event and it's not likely that the teams would be willing to lend a car for training on the Thursday before the event. It's not like this is a permanent circuit like Silverstone that has its own vehicles and trained snatch crews. that probably do 30-40 race days per year. Not implying the Canadian marshals are untrained but just pointing out some of the problems that temporary circuits throw up.

I recall when Donington decided to invest in huge gravel traps and use snatch tractors. it was local farmers who provided the tractors and drivers. We often used to get stuck behind Maurice and his tractor on the lanes on the way in and out of the circuit.

If they where fitted with speed limiters it would just slow down the snatch of a car from a dangereous position and hence expose the marshals and drivers to a longer period of danger or result in more safety cars.

Edited by ExFlagMan, 12 June 2013 - 08:23.


#227 275 GTB-4

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 10:36

If these are F1 supplied cranes then they should be fitted with a speed limiter and sensors and cameras.

If someone gets too close the sensors beep and the machine is slowed.


Most Classically Unbelievable poorly considered Post of the Century....go's to...

Jimisgod....come on down Jimi! :clap:

#228 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 12:36

Nice article about Mark Robinson:

http://globalnews.ca...ian-grand-prix/

I wonder if he would have also been part of this forum, he was definitely obsessed with F1 and would have fitted right in on this forum or others like it.

#229 muramasa

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 13:03

But once it's on the crane no one is helping themselves to souvenirs, nor is the speed really going to change the chance of people getting photos of the underside that much.

I was just surprised by the picture - the marshalls clearly have quite a jog going on and I'm surprised they were travelling that fast, it might make the car swing around more as well
https://pbs.twimg.co...A0PzR.jpg:large (not graphic)

Maybe the speed here is standard for the situation but from now going a bit slower surely seems wise


You can see spectators flocking towards podium ceremony, so no one can blame if they're hurrying to return the Sauber before people start coming out.

Also, in the first place, whatever situation it is, it's exactly their mission to clear the stricken car from track and return it to owners as quickly (and of course safely) as possible. They were in the middle of fulfilling their duty, working hard on it. And it turns out he and the team is guys with experience and skill, but still it had to happen.
It's how it is. At house or office, most careless, "oh, sh!t" moment end up with nothing, like hitting ur foot on the corner of furniture, cutting ur finger abit while cooking, etc. But for those working on track side, construction site, factories, warehouses etc, one little "oh sh!t" immediately leads to serious consequences. They are literaly next to death. So are anyone actually once you're out your home (actually inside home as well), but condition is much much much more severe and tougher for them.



#230 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 13:29

If these are F1 supplied cranes then they should be fitted with a speed limiter and sensors and cameras.

If someone gets too close the sensors beep and the machine is slowed.

Hmmmm...
Sounds just like OSHA, always there after the fact, with fix it decrees that are either unaffordable, or solutions for issues that rarely occur. Oh, and with a citation book in hand...
Frankly, IMO, the teams can wait and get their cars back off flatbeds an hour or more after the race is over. Even better would be letting the teams worry about their own retrievals with dollys or what have you. Rattling about with a car swinging all over on a hook is/has been hazardous for some time now. I've seen marshals trying to control the car with a rope in their hands being swung about themselves. Pretty inefficient and something that would never fly on any construction site I've been on, and those number in the hundreds.

#231 AustinF1

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 19:27

Why do people feel the need to bring an imaginary sky-fairy into this?

A man has died. It's not the time to bring in weird, unsubstantiated super-natural beliefs.

My condolences to the marshal's family, friends and colleagues.

I'm not a religious man, but to each his own, especially in this kind of situation.

Relax.

#232 AustinF1

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 19:37

But if he drops the radio in front of the vehicle, or even alongside, shouldnt the driver be watching? When I first heard about this I thought they were in a rush to clear the accident seen and people make mistakes. And while I don't want to say this was negligent, it seems avoidable? It's just such a wtf incident.

Those kinds of vehicles have large blind spots, especially close to the vehicle itself. It also sounds like this was a very quick incident that likely could not have been avoided by the driver even at his slow speed and even if he saw the marshal fall.

I've driven lots of fire trucks. It's not at all uncommon for someone standing directly in front of the truck (up next to the bumper) to be completely invisible to the driver sitting normally in his/her seat.

It also puts into perspective how dangerous the pitlane and paddock are post-race. All the live post-race footage seems to be an exercise in dodging vehicles of varying sizes as the teams scramble to pack up and leave. More than once have we seen tv presenters breath in as an 18 wheeler inches past. This could just as easily happen to any number of media, guests or ticket holders milling around.

Much of this stuff would not be allowed in a normal workplace setting. Even light forklifts usually follow designated lanes in factories. F1 gets away with an awful lot of stuff in the H&S department off track.


I can vouch for this. The narrow COTA paddock right after the 2012 USGP was insane with large, loaded forklifts (not the usual kind) with their loads up high, squeezing past crowds of people in tight places.

I would suggest that this being a 'steet circuit' contributed to the ease with which spectators got into that area.

Fans are allowed onto CGV after the race through a gate near turn 2 (and likely in other spots as well).

Edited by AustinF1, 12 June 2013 - 19:48.


#233 cheesy poofs

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 19:51

The CSST ( Quebec's Occupational Health and Safety Board ) published today its report on the death of Mark Robinson who was working as a track marshal during the 2013 Canadian GP.

The report blames the organizers and requires changes in the future. They ( organizers) were also fined for this accident.

#234 jimjimjeroo

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 19:54

Cue the family lawsuit...

#235 cheesy poofs

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 21:04

The full report...

 

 

 

A volunteer worker struck and killed by a forklift at the end of the Formula 1 Grand Prix of Canada: the CSST identifies poor management of health and safety

Montreal , November 6, 2013

June 9 , 2013, Mark Robinson dies in the line of duty at the end of the Formula 1 Grand Prix of Canada, organized by the company Octane Racing Group Inc. . , Together with the Automobile Club of Île Notre -Dame . The volunteer worker is caught , then struck and killed by the truck used to transport a race car to the pits. Among the root causes of the accident , the CSST identifies among others a method of transporting dangerous and poor management of health and safety .

CSST now makes public the findings of its investigation to remind employers and employees the importance of identifying the risks associated with their work environment .
The forklift catches and grabs the worker track

At the end of the Formula 1 Grand Prix of Canada, Mr. Robinson engaged in the transport to the wells of a race car, immobilized near a corner of the Circuit Gilles Villeneuve , located on the Ile Notre- Dame, Montreal. He is responsible for stabilizing the race car during transport . To do this, he holds a strap attached to the back of the race car and runs to the rough terrain forklift used for transportation .

Halfway through , about 120 meters from the pit lane , the truck catches Mr. Robinson, and the right front wheel in contact with his left calf. It is snapped , then crushed by the two spur gears of the forklift. Volunteer injured worker was taken to hospital track, where resuscitation attempts are performed . He was taken to a hospital , where his death is recorded .
Better identify hazards

The survey by the CSST retain three causes for the accident. First, the truck catches up and grabs the worker track , which runs in front of the cart wheel to stabilize the car racing . Then , the method used to transport the race car to the wells is dangerous. Finally, the management of health and safety is inadequate, especially with regard to risk identification , assessment of workers' skills and track the education and training of forklift drivers .
CSST requires changes in working methods

Following this accident , the CSST requires the employer to form all forklift operators as required by the Regulations on health and safety at work and recommendations of the manufacturer of the forklift.

It also requires that the employer shall ensure that the equipment used to handle meets the requirements of the manufacturer of forklift, it is used under the conditions prescribed by the latter, it is maintained in good condition and that the hooks are provided with safety latches .

Finally , the employer must establish a safe working method for transporting race cars, the current method has been the subject of a ban. The employer may submit any measure to the inspector , who evaluated. Course workers should also be trained on the transport of racing cars.

CSST considers that the undertakings Octane Racing Group Inc. . and Automobile Club de l' Ile Notre- Dame acted to endanger the safety of workers. Accordingly, statements of offense issued to them . For this type of offense, the fine ranges from $ 15 698 to 62 790 U.S. dollars for a first offense , and $ 31 396 to 154 976 dollars in case of recurrence.



#236 275 GTB-4

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 22:17

The full report...

 

 

 

A volunteer worker struck and killed by a forklift at the end of the Formula 1 Grand Prix of Canada: the CSST identifies poor management of health and safety

Montreal , November 6, 2013

June 9 , 2013, Mark Robinson dies in the line of duty at the end of the Formula 1 Grand Prix of Canada, organized by the company Octane Racing Group Inc. . , Together with the Automobile Club of Île Notre -Dame . The volunteer worker is caught , then struck and killed by the truck used to transport a race car to the pits. Among the root causes of the accident , the CSST identifies among others a method of transporting dangerous and poor management of health and safety .

CSST now makes public the findings of its investigation to remind employers and employees the importance of identifying the risks associated with their work environment .
The forklift catches and grabs the worker track

At the end of the Formula 1 Grand Prix of Canada, Mr. Robinson engaged in the transport to the wells of a race car, immobilized near a corner of the Circuit Gilles Villeneuve , located on the Ile Notre- Dame, Montreal. He is responsible for stabilizing the race car during transport . To do this, he holds a strap attached to the back of the race car and runs to the rough terrain forklift used for transportation .

Halfway through , about 120 meters from the pit lane , the truck catches Mr. Robinson, and the right front wheel in contact with his left calf. It is snapped , then crushed by the two spur gears of the forklift. Volunteer injured worker was taken to hospital track, where resuscitation attempts are performed . He was taken to a hospital , where his death is recorded .
Better identify hazards

The survey by the CSST retain three causes for the accident. First, the truck catches up and grabs the worker track , which runs in front of the cart wheel to stabilize the car racing . Then , the method used to transport the race car to the wells is dangerous. Finally, the management of health and safety is inadequate, especially with regard to risk identification , assessment of workers' skills and track the education and training of forklift drivers .
CSST requires changes in working methods

Following this accident , the CSST requires the employer to form all forklift operators as required by the Regulations on health and safety at work and recommendations of the manufacturer of the forklift.

It also requires that the employer shall ensure that the equipment used to handle meets the requirements of the manufacturer of forklift, it is used under the conditions prescribed by the latter, it is maintained in good condition and that the hooks are provided with safety latches .

Finally , the employer must establish a safe working method for transporting race cars, the current method has been the subject of a ban. The employer may submit any measure to the inspector , who evaluated. Course workers should also be trained on the transport of racing cars.

CSST considers that the undertakings Octane Racing Group Inc. . and Automobile Club de l' Ile Notre- Dame acted to endanger the safety of workers. Accordingly, statements of offense issued to them . For this type of offense, the fine ranges from $ 15 698 to 62 790 U.S. dollars for a first offense , and $ 31 396 to 154 976 dollars in case of recurrence.

 

Is this a really poor translation from French...or was it written by junior :confused:



#237 Velocifer

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 03:31

We saw at Suzuka the truck lifting the stricken car was backing with the marshals behind so they already know (knew already before?) how to do it there.

 

Was also some nice marshaling at the same track to catch a loose tyre near the tyre wall before it went back to the track area, so Japanese marshals seemingly more organized and fit.

 

But disappointing to see yet another unfit marshal with a dangling radio barely attached to the belt 'running' at Abu Dhabi practice to the track picking up a piece, I could easily see him similar to Canada being distracted by a falling radio and having a moment.

 

Honestly, FIA should be clamping down more hard on track organizers not getting their act together when it comes to marshal selection, training and organizing. It just won't do to have an unfit guy with a loose overall and a tied cloth belt as radio holder do any risky work just because he was the first to volunteer or an organizer's mate. And not only for safety, it also makes F1 look bad with amateurish marshals tripping over themselves and with a max running speed of 15kmh. Ask drivers for junior series to be on-track marshals as they are bound to be fit and organized.



#238 redreni

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 09:46

We saw at Suzuka the truck lifting the stricken car was backing with the marshals behind so they already know (knew already before?) how to do it there.
 
Was also some nice marshaling at the same track to catch a loose tyre near the tyre wall before it went back to the track area, so Japanese marshals seemingly more organized and fit.
 
But disappointing to see yet another unfit marshal with a dangling radio barely attached to the belt 'running' at Abu Dhabi practice to the track picking up a piece, I could easily see him similar to Canada being distracted by a falling radio and having a moment.
 
Honestly, FIA should be clamping down more hard on track organizers not getting their act together when it comes to marshal selection, training and organizing. It just won't do to have an unfit guy with a loose overall and a tied cloth belt as radio holder do any risky work just because he was the first to volunteer or an organizer's mate. And not only for safety, it also makes F1 look bad with amateurish marshals tripping over themselves and with a max running speed of 15kmh. Ask drivers for junior series to be on-track marshals as they are bound to be fit and organized.


I hope nobody is suggesting lack of fitness as a cause of this fatal accident without good reason to do so. There are many really good marshalls who do a perfectly good and safe job despite advancing years meaning they‘re not great athletes.

I do think it‘s a fantastic idea for young drivers to be encouraged to work as marshalls. It could be a condition of the FIA development scholarships that ought to be made available, on merit, to young talent and paid for by a levy on F1 teams.

#239 Peat

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 10:07

In the UK, you can get a signature on your NatB Rookie license for a day's marshaling. Can't remember if it was mandatory or not, i did it as i felt it was important to do so.

 

Sadly, i think that when you get into the mega-bucks level of GP3/GP3, the driver's are more likely to be self-absorbed brats than motorsport enthusiasts, so i don't think they would do a particually good job. (Sweeping generalisation, of course)

Regarding the case, it seems they are throwing the book at them for mal-practice. Unless there was a written protocol about recovering cars over distance over 'X' that hey ignored, then i think it's a bit unfair. I have no idea what is in place tbh.

In hindsight, i would say the best option is to recover the vehicle to a flat-bed truck if it has to travel more than 200m or so. But that still doesn't eliminate the risk of what happened. Having driven and worked with agricultural style forklifts that they use as snatch vehicles, i can vouch that visibility is not their strong point (My father ran over our dog in one). Also, the exposed, thick treaded tyres make for a perfect mangle. If one of them catches you, your going with it. Perhaps for trackside use, they could be fitted with bumpers/wheelguards? I dunno, i'm just throwing ideas around.

 

Dreadful, dreadful way to go. RIP.



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#240 redreni

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 10:29

In the UK, you can get a signature on your NatB Rookie license for a day's marshaling. Can't remember if it was mandatory or not, i did it as i felt it was important to do so.

 

Sadly, i think that when you get into the mega-bucks level of GP3/GP3, the driver's are more likely to be self-absorbed brats than motorsport enthusiasts, so i don't think they would do a particually good job. (Sweeping generalisation, of course)

Regarding the case, it seems they are throwing the book at them for mal-practice. Unless there was a written protocol about recovering cars over distance over 'X' that hey ignored, then i think it's a bit unfair. I have no idea what is in place tbh.

In hindsight, i would say the best option is to recover the vehicle to a flat-bed truck if it has to travel more than 200m or so. But that still doesn't eliminate the risk of what happened. Having driven and worked with agricultural style forklifts that they use as snatch vehicles, i can vouch that visibility is not their strong point (My father ran over our dog in one). Also, the exposed, thick treaded tyres make for a perfect mangle. If one of them catches you, your going with it. Perhaps for trackside use, they could be fitted with bumpers/wheelguards? I dunno, i'm just throwing ideas around.

 

Dreadful, dreadful way to go. RIP.

 

Agreed. The tractor cranes are there to take cars over wet grass or mud or gravel, and to move them a short distance from the track to a place of safety, behind the barriers. They're perfectly suitable for that task if there is proper communication between the driver and the people steadying the car. But that's assuming they're operating at or by the racetrack, which is a controlled area in which they're not going to encounter passers by. If you start using tractors to take cars the wrong way down the pit exit road and the pit lane, after the race, when the road is filled with punters, cameramen, television crews, team personnel - that's just not a sensible use of the tractor crane. The problems of restricted visibility are bound to come to the fore and sooner or later, catch one out. If it hadn't hit a marshall it could very easily have hit somebody else. It's just a case of using the right tool for the right job, really.



#241 muramasa

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 10:55

Fit or unfit doesnt matter much i think. Not saying it doesnt make difference at all of course, but take suzuka marshals catching loose wheel at spoon for example, if another car spinning towards you while on track/gravel collecting the tyre, fit or not is quite irrelevant. What's essential in such circumstance is knowing how to do it - like making sure yellow flag is waved first and cars going slow by recognizing and obeying the order, knowing the timing and that the risk of going out to collect tyre is low enough, etc.

 

So what's needed is to share and accumulate knowledge across circuits/series/borders, like case study for making proper judgement under various circumstances, such as procedure when using heavy vehicles like lifts and tracks, conducts regarding going out on track under yellow flag, wear gears properly etc etc. Remember that any veterans of whatever makes such basic mistakes, just as we still hit head and foot finger at corners sometimes. That's why sharing knowledge/experience is important and that's the only way to minimize and eliminate tragedies like this.



#242 cheesy poofs

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 17:54

FYI - I had to use Google "translate" as the report was not made available in English from its original French version.

Thanks.

#243 PassWind

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 20:11

Catching a tire is plain stupid, tires have killed people the predicting of the energy potential of a moving tire isn't something a Marshal can do in a split second, the only things out on track that are remotely built to deal with racing levels of force are the cars themselves and any barrier protection. Ask that marshal what the mass of the tire was and at what velocity would it be considered safe to physically capture it at and they would have no tool in the instant of occurrence to make that judgement.

As to the tele handler incident and given the details of the report a adhoc procedure was used, no consideration for extant risks ( transport of a suspended load ), tele handlers, mobile non slewing cranes and forklifts are extremely useful in rapidly moving volume of load from one location to another however these types of machines including vehicle loading cranes are notorious for how often they feature in work place fatalities.

The machine would have had a load management system fitted, hence the load being carried so high, probably a standard 3t tele handler but that's at zero boom extension, so to stop the machines rear wheels being levered off the ground while moving quickly hoist the load higher to bring the load closer to the pivot point (front wheels) .

A F1 car frankly is a awkward load for this type of machine, it doesn't seem practicable to be able to use tag lines effectively on the load given the work space available.

The fix for this is pretty straight forward, provide for the secure storage of race cars in the event of recovery from the race, until such time it is safe to move them using normal methods of load shifting post race.