52 replies to this topic

[TheThirdTenor1]

Right so we are only 7 races in but the championship battle looks like it will be between the top 3 drivers (at most). My question is, when do people think Massa, Webber and Grosjean will start driving to support their team mates (i.e. let them through if they are behind them, and try to hold up championship rivals). It already looks like quite a long shot for any of them to win the championship. Given how Alonso and Kimi are now both more than a race win behind Vettel, there may need to be some awkward calls if their team mates have a better weekend than them.

also would prefer it if this thread didn't end up with the usual arguments (i.e. Alonso is default number 1 from beginning of the season because of Santander money etc.).

[LuckyStrike1]

Massa, Webber and Grosjean should probably up their own pace first before they are in a position to do any "support" for their team mates.

[speednerd]

I wonder why you didn't include Nico in your list... could it be the fact that he was already used as a moving chicane to help Lewis in Canada?

[molpid]

I wonder why you didn't include Nico in your list... could it be the fact that he was already used as a moving chicane to help Lewis in Canada?

Merc are not in the hunt for WDC

[NotSoSilentBob]

Cant see Webber doing anything to help Vettel. If he *does* appear to be helping, it'll be because Red Bull are manipulating things from the pitwall.

Vettel likely wont need Webber's assistance regardless.

[Kelateboy]

Cant see Webber doing anything to help Vettel. If he *does* appear to be helping, it'll be because Red Bull are manipulating things from the pitwall.
Vettel likely wont need Webber's assistance regardless.

In previous years when a 2-way telemetry was still legal, it was possible to manipulate and affect the performance of a car from the pitwall. How do you still achieve that nowadays?

[mnmracer]

Aside from the Merc boys, I'd say it's pretty much decided already.
Of course, Webber will do as much supporting of Vettel as he has over the last couple years, so there's nothing new there.

In previous years when a 2-way telemetry was still legal, it was possible to manipulate and affect the performance of a car from the pitwall. How do you still achieve that nowadays?

With a tinfoil transmitter and fanboy magic

[LuckyStrike1]

In previous years when a 2-way telemetry was still legal, it was possible to manipulate and affect the performance of a car from the pitwall. How do you still achieve that nowadays?

Throw bananas at him in the pit stop I think.

[SpaMaster]

By now they should be doing it. Most certainly in Ferrari and Lotus' cases and they would. Red Bull though is a wild wild world. Webber never had, even when he was mathematically out of it, so I doubt he would now. I don't think Vettel expects anything from him anyway, he always counts him out.

[Zoetrope]

Merc are not in the hunt for WDC

Mercedes has wiped the floor with Lotus in Canada. I would assume if they are not in the hunt, Kimi isn't either.

[ZooL]

RBR, Ferrari, Lotus do it from race 1. That's how they go racing, to maximise chance of winning championship.

[NotSoSilentBob]

In previous years when a 2-way telemetry was still legal, it was possible to manipulate and affect the performance of a car from the pitwall. How do you still achieve that nowadays?

Strategy decisions, calling a driver to pit when the result might put them back into traffic, slow pitstops, KERS problems.... all ready for a team to deploy if they need to.

[seahawk]

RBR, Ferrari, Lotus do it from race 1. That's how they go racing, to maximise chance of winning championship.

And if you look at the first 7 races, that was a wise move.

[Sakae]

Right so we are only 7 races in but the championship battle looks like it will be between the top 3 drivers (at most). My question is, when do people think Massa, Webber and Grosjean will start driving to support their team mates (i.e. let them through if they are behind them, and try to hold up championship rivals). It already looks like quite a long shot for any of them to win the championship. Given how Alonso and Kimi are now both more than a race win behind Vettel, there may need to be some awkward calls if their team mates have a better weekend than them.

also would prefer it if this thread didn't end up with the usual arguments (i.e. Alonso is default number 1 from beginning of the season because of Santander money etc.).

Team's manager decides on support, if any. At RBR it is a mixed bag of happiness based on 2012 ending not worth re-discussing, unless one has desire to start fight in a hurry.

[Skinnyguy]

RBR, Ferrari, Lotus do it from race 1. That's how they go racing, to maximise chance of winning championship.

Webber helping Vettel? Go get a grip son.

[Crossmax]

Massa, Webber and Grosjean should probably up their own pace first before they are in a position to do any "support" for their team mates.

+1. Secondly, Webber will never support his team mate. He was reluctant in 2012, and since then, certain events have unfolded...

[RealRacing]

Webber will help as little as possible, Growjohn can´t do anything to help and Massa lost any chance of not having to help in probably the first 2 or 3 races...

[Atreiu]

If it comes to simply letting a teammate by, I think Massa would probably already be requested to do that. Grosjean too. I can't see Webber doing it.
If by help they have to break gearbox seals and take penalties on purpose, I don't think anyone will do it yet.

[sopa]

To have a bit of humour...

Grosjean can help like he did in 2012. Take championship rivals out in a first corner melee. But this time he has to aim properly to get Vettel too.

Massa likes to crash into walls a lot, so another Singapore is on the cards. Remember the call to Alonso "Safety car window is open." Ominous.

Webber can race without KERS for the rest of the season.

Rosberg can just save fuel all the time. He has been doing it ever since joining Mercedes in 2010 anyway, as far as my memory goes.

[Fastcake]

Webber would probably start supporting Alonso now if he can.

[Taxi]

Massa does that already, Webber will never do it and Grosjean will help a lot if he doesn't crash Kimi. So things are pretty settled. But as for Mercedes... Now, that will be interesting.

[garoidb]

Massa has 49 points to Alonso's 96 at the moment with the leader on 132. At Hockenheim 2010, he had 67 to Alonso's 98 with the leader on 145. It is earlier in the season, but he really cannot afford to drop this far back given his recent seasons. He cannot be considered a realistic contender for the 2013 WDC IMO. Does anyone think he could be?

[Longtimefan]

I think Nico already did, didn't he?

[st99]

Webber would probably start supporting Alonso now if he can.

Massa since race 1
Grosjean has been too far away to help Kimi
Webber would not support Vettel unless he's forced
I don't think Mercedes can or should choose a driver this early in the season

[SophieB]

Posts deleted. Stop using this thread to rehash the same old arguments about Brazil 2012, Brazil 2008 etc or the thread will be closed.

[Brother Fox]

Webber and Massa have shown sparks to suggest they're still (long shot) WDC contenders so its too early yet.
Grosjean has been nowhere as far as im concerned, so he should be thinking about that role now. Ironically, because he's that far off Kimi I doubt he could do much good anyway.
Lewis/Nico are still too close to call

[chrisj]

No one is actually suggesting that Massa would ever be allowed to finish ahead of Alonso are they? As others have already said, Webber is more likely to help Alonso than his own teammate.

Edited by chrisj, 11 June 2013 - 03:32.

[garoidb]

No one is actually suggesting that Massa would ever be allowed to finish ahead of Alonso are they? As others have already said, Webber is more likely to help Alonso than his own teammate.

Not now that the points gaps has open up .... again. In the early races, it looked like Felipe was being allowed to run his own races.

[garoidb]

Lewis/Nico are still too close to call

Yes, and it will probably stay that way for a while yet. Also, it is only really worth it if there is a genuine shot at the WDC for one of the drivers, which may not end up being the case for Mercedes.

[speednerd]

Yes, and it will probably stay that way for a while yet. Also, it is only really worth it if there is a genuine shot at the WDC for one of the drivers, which may not end up being the case for Mercedes.

Are you kidding me? Do you remember the race with 'Multi 21', where everyone seemed to forgive Mercedes Team Orders? What about the previous race in Canada? Mercedes has chosen a No. 1 driver from the very first race of the season. Nico is doing all he can to help Lewis, and people aren't even acknowledging that. How sad for him.

[Sakae]

Are you kidding me? Do you remember the race with 'Multi 21', where everyone seemed to forgive Mercedes Team Orders? What about the previous race in Canada? Mercedes has chosen a No. 1 driver from the very first race of the season. Nico is doing all he can to help Lewis, and people aren't even acknowledging that. How sad for him.

...which is why I think Rosberg will be exploring vacancies elsewhere, and if opportunity strikes, he could leave. He was angry already once, and he has farther behind him to observe the scene and open his eyes.

[molpid]

Mercedes has wiped the floor with Lotus in Canada. I would assume if they are not in the hunt, Kimi isn't either.

Realistically they are in the hunt for 3rd place in the WCC, Kimi still has a shot at WDC

[garoidb]

Are you kidding me? Do you remember the race with 'Multi 21', where everyone seemed to forgive Mercedes Team Orders? What about the previous race in Canada? Mercedes has chosen a No. 1 driver from the very first race of the season. Nico is doing all he can to help Lewis, and people aren't even acknowledging that. How sad for him.

Ooops, forgot about that. Nonetheless, if Lewis drops fully out of contention, there will be no need for that kind of thing from a WDC perspective. Then it would just be race fixing.

[speednerd]

Realistically they are in the hunt for 3rd place in the WCC, Kimi still has a shot at WDC

Kimi is just 11 points ahead of Lewis. There are 12 more races to go. If he still has a shot at WDC, then so does Lewis.

[molpid]

Kimi is just 11 points ahead of Lewis. There are 12 more races to go. If he still has a shot at WDC, then so does Lewis.

True, according to the current WDC points they are both in the hunt. Im just not sure Merc will be able to keep up with the development [see previous year]. Just a hunch though.

[SunnyENTP]

Kimi is just 11 points ahead of Lewis. There are 12 more races to go. If he still has a shot at WDC, then so does Lewis.

Both have a zero chance of winning. No idea why OP included Kimi in the list not to mention that Grojsean has been hopless

[speednerd]

Both have a zero chance of winning. No idea why OP included Kimi in the list not to mention that Grojsean has been hopless

Well then, Alonso is just 8 points ahead of Kimi. With 12 races remaining, why does he have a chance and Kimi doesn't?

Frankly speaking it is too early to rule out the top 5-6. We are barely a third of the way into the new season.

[Vibe]

Webber helping Vettel? Go get a grip son.

Webber was instrumental in 2 out of 3 Vettel's titles.

[kosmos]

Not now that the points gaps has open up .... again. In the early races, it looked like Felipe was being allowed to run his own races.

Clearly he was allowed to do his racing but the thing it's that most of the time Massa is in no position to help Alonso because he is behind. Webber is going to help Vettel even if he don't want because helping Vettel means that he will get better results for him too.

[speednerd]

Webber was instrumental in 2 out of 3 Vettel's titles.

care to elaborate?

[Brother Fox]

I'm guessing Webber fighting for wins/podiums makes it harder for Alonso etc to get the win and close the points gap

[SgtPepperoni]

I wonder why you didn't include Nico in your list... could it be the fact that he was already used as a moving chicane to help Lewis in Canada?

Since when was Nico the #2 at Merc? I must have missed that. I've always thought of him as the senior driver, having been in their service longer, and with a win under his belt already this year.

[TheThirdTenor1]

I'm guessing Webber fighting for wins/podiums makes it harder for Alonso etc to get the win and close the points gap

Well it is true. If Webber didn't overtake Alonso at Silverstone, then Vettel wouldn't have been WDC. So he effectively did a big favour for Vettel there.

[Grundle]

Massa, Webber and Grosjean should probably up their own pace first before they are in a position to do any "support" for their team mates.

Amazing to think this deadwood is in championship contending cars.

[mnmracer]

Well it is true. If Webber didn't overtake Alonso at Silverstone, then Vettel wouldn't have been WDC. So he effectively did a big favour for Vettel there.

Yes, that's a reason Mark Webber overtook Alonso in Silverstone

Edited by mnmracer, 11 June 2013 - 09:52.

[TheThirdTenor1]

Yes, that's a reason Mark Webber overtook Alonso in Silverstone

Did i say it was the reason?

[mnmracer]

Did i say it was the reason?

You seemed to imply it was a reason at all.
Otherwise, what was the purpose of your post?

[TheThirdTenor1]

You seemed to imply it was a reason at all.
Otherwise, what was the purpose of your post?

That Webber could (and did) take points off Alonso. Not that hard to understand.

[ThomFi]

That Webber could (and did) take points off Alonso. Not that hard to understand.

The topic is about how soon Nr. 2 drivers start driving to support their team mates (i.e. let them through if they are behind them, and try to hold up championship rivals).
"Support" in this sense means, they give assistance to the Nr. 1 driver and put their own interests to the side. The name "Webber" can be scratched from this list. Silverstone was hardly support in the meaning of the topic.

[TheThirdTenor1]

Well Webber did move out of the way for Vettel in Brazil. Pilbeam said "Thanks Mark" afterwards.