176 replies to this topic

[FastnLoud]

When have either of these two drivers had a world class teammate who will challenge them all the way? - excluding 2007 because we all know how that went bla bla bla.

I would love to see Kimi go up against Vettel and see Alonso get a teammate that can challenge him. To see Nico and Lewis battling it out is fun and interesting for the fans as they are quite evenly matched at the moment.

Doesn't anyone else want to see these number 1 drivers battle it out with their teammate instead beating them fairly easy season after season.

Alonso

2003 2004- Trulli
2005 2006 Fisichella
2007 - Hamilton
2008- Piquet
2009 - Piquet - Grosjean
2010 -13 Massa

Vettel
2007 -08 Bourdais
09 - 13 Webber

[garoidb]

When have either of these two drivers had a world class teammate who will challenge them all the way? - excluding 2007 because we all know how that went bla bla bla.

I would love to see Kimi go up against Vettel and see Alonso get a teammate that can challenge him. To see Nico and Lewis battling it out is fun and interesting for the fans as they are quite evenly matched at the moment.

Doesn't anyone else want to see these number 1 drivers battle it out with their teammate instead beating them fairly easy season after season.

Alonso

2003 2004- Trulli
2005 2006 Fisichella
2007 - Hamilton
2008- Piquet
2009 - Piquet - Grosjean
2010 -13 Massa

Vettel
2007 -08 Bourdais
09 - 13 Webber

You forgot Jacques Villeneuve - Renault 2004.

[as65p]

When have either of these two drivers had a world class teammate who will challenge them all the way?

Maybe it's news to you, but the goal is to beat your teammate, not to be challenged all the way.

[FastnLoud]

Maybe it's news to you, but the goal is to beat your teammate, not to be challenged all the way.

Obviously!!!!

[garoidb]

Maybe it's news to you, but the goal is to beat your teammate, not to be challenged all the way.

Team-mates cease being considered world class when you beat them by too much.

[as65p]

Team-mates cease being considered world class when you beat them by too much.

Okay, let me re-phrase: It's not a drivers goal to make his teammates look world class.

[P123]

Doesn't anyone else want to see these number 1 drivers battle it out with their teammate instead beating them fairly easy season after season.

Of those available, only Kimi would give either of those two a fight in the same car.

You forgot Liuzzi as a teammate of Vettel's.

[garoidb]

Of those available, only Kimi would give either of those two a fight in the same car.

You forgot Liuzzi as a teammate of Vettel's.

And Heidfeld at BMW for one race.

[FastnLoud]

Of those available, only Kimi would give either of those two a fight in the same car.

You forgot Liuzzi as a teammate of Vettel's.

Oh yeh, remember Liuzzi, the best of the best

Agree, Want to see Kimi at Redbull next year.

Edited by FastnLoud, 16 June 2013 - 21:36.

[trogggy]

Doesn't anyone else want to see these number 1 drivers battle it out with their teammate instead beating them fairly easy season after season.

Any switch of drivers is good (interesting) for the fans.
What's good for the fans is not necessarily good for the teams though.

RBR, for instance, couldn't have gained anything by employing a better (if there was one available) driver than Webber over the last 4 years. They may even have lost out on WDCs.

Edited by trogggy, 16 June 2013 - 21:40.

[scheivlak]

Well, if we really want to name everyone we should also name Tarso Marques and Alex Yoong on the list of Fernando's teammates

[FastnLoud]

Any switch of drivers is good (interesting) for the fans.
What's good for the fans is not necessarily good for the teams though.

RBR, for instance, couldn't have gained anything by employing a better (if there was one available) driver than Webber over the last 4 years. They may even have lost out on WDCs.

I agree on that one, Redbull have it perfect with Webber, he won't challenge Seb but will bring in enough points to win the constructors title - it's been good for them for the last 4 years.

[Diablobb81]

Yes, because having two equally great drivers in a team works so well.

[as65p]

Well, if we really want to name everyone we should also name Tarso Marques and Alex Yoong on the list of Fernando's teammates

Looks like Alonso has a real problem with rookies. Two times they beat him in the standings, by the same margin even!

[Barabas]

I'm a team fan and take pleasure in seeing the TEAM win most of all
Inter team battles don't interest me and they are mostly counter-productive too

[robefc]

Any switch of drivers is good (interesting) for the fans.
What's good for the fans is not necessarily good for the teams though.

RBR, for instance, couldn't have gained anything by employing a better (if there was one available) driver than Webber over the last 4 years. They may even have lost out on WDCs.

Yep but it is such a shame they didn't put Lewis in the other Red Bull, mouth watering prospect for everyone I think (perhaps most of all for alonso fans...!).

Interesting to hear that Dietrich and Horner are apparently disagreeing over whether to take Kimi next year, I wonder if Dietrich would have backed a Lewis v Vettel partnership but was advised against by Horner and/or Marko.

[FastnLoud]

Yep but it is such a shame they didn't put Lewis in the other Red Bull, mouth watering prospect for everyone I think (perhaps most of all for alonso fans...!).

Interesting to hear that Dietrich and Horner are apparently disagreeing over whether to take Kimi next year, I wonder if Dietrich would have backed a Lewis v Vettel partnership but was advised against by Horner and/or Marko.

Marko will never see that his son is challenged. As long as they do enough to bring in points for constructors.

[redreni]

Team-mates cease being considered world class when you beat them by too much.

Absolutely. People forget how highly rated Trulli and particularly Fisi still were prior to them getting destroyed by Alonso.

People also forget about the titanic intra-team rivalry of 2006 between Vettel and Heidfeld, where over the admittedly unrepresentative course of one race, Heidfeld outqualified Vettel by 0.7s and ran ahead of him in the race until an hydraulic failure put Heidfeld out on lap 55, the misfortune of his team-mate gifting Vettel a point for eighth. I do, in all seriousness, regard Heidfeld as the best F1 teammate Vettel has ever had, which is more a comment on the others than on Heidfeld himself, and I remain to be convinced that Vettel's "raw speed" is at the level people assume it to be.

[P123]

Absolutely. People forget how highly rated Trulli and particularly Fisi still were prior to them getting destroyed by Alonso.

People also forget about the titanic intra-team rivalry of 2006 between Vettel and Heidfeld, where over the admittedly unrepresentative course of one race, Heidfeld outqualified Vettel by 0.7s and ran ahead of him in the race until an hydraulic failure put Heidfeld out on lap 55, the misfortune of his team-mate gifting Vettel a point for eighth. I do, in all seriousness, regard Heidfeld as the best F1 teammate Vettel has ever had, which is more a comment on the others than on Heidfeld himself, and I remain to be convinced that Vettel's "raw speed" is at the level people assume it to be.

I don't recall Trulli being that highly rated. Always seen as solid, and perhaps surprised all by leading Alonso in the points standings before being sacked. Fisi was another matter- always voted as most underrated; a case of look at what he will do once he gets a good car good car.... didn't quite turn out that well for him; a bit like Kovaleinen in many respects.

As for Heidfeld being the best teammate Vettel has had... possibly, based on his '05, '06 and '07 performances.

[Watkins74]

I prefer the top talent be spread around to differant teams. The mix we have right now is perfect for my viewing pleasure.

[RealRacing]

Unfortunately F1 is not about satisfying fans' desire for watching auto-racing, but about winning at all costs to support a series of interests from personal to commercial and to do so as cost-effectively as possible. These premises make racing, and most of all racing between teammates, an undesirable occurrence in today's F1. Add to this the problems that putting together 2 top drivers has caused in the past, the legality of TOs and the fragile ego of some of these drivers and you have the answer why the only way of having two top drivers in a team is when one of them is an unknown like Hamilton was in 2007. The best one can hope for as a fan is for 3 or 4 of the best drivers to be in different teams and that these teams are as evenly matched as possible so that they are forced to race (tyres permitting).

[turssi]

Massa could be considered world class. But after his accident he has not been able to win races, while before the accident at Ferrari he managed 03 wins per season on average. That is by the way the same average Alonso and Kimi have managed to reach at Ferrari. Of course Alonso still will try to improve his average to >3 wins per season while he continues driving for the team.

Edited by turssi, 17 June 2013 - 00:03.

[ebc]

I remember Heidfeld giving an interview with F1 racing magazine a few years ago were he said that Webber was the fastest teammate he ever had which is quite something when you consider how good Raikkonen and Kubica are. I think Webber is one of the 3 or 4 best qualifiers F1 so for Vettel to beat by some margin is hugely impressive.

Webbers pace advantage over Heidfeld was greater than Kubica's, I think people put Webber down to discredit Vettel.

Trulli too was an excellent qualifier, so for Alonso to match him and Hamilton in qualifying suggests that he is too, something that he doesn't get enough credit for.

Everyone knows who the best drivers are, there are no real secrets, the best drivers drive for the best teams because the best teams know who the best drivers are. Alonso and Vettel are the best and don't need to prove anything.

[jj2728]

Unfortunately F1 is not about satisfying fans' desire for watching auto-racing, but about winning at all costs to support a series of interests from personal to commercial and to do so as cost-effectively as possible.

Really? Then explain to me why we have DRS and the current Pirelli tyre.

[Juggles]

I remember Heidfeld giving an interview with F1 racing magazine a few years ago were he said that Webber was the fastest teammate he ever had which is quite something when you consider how good Raikkonen and Kubica are. I think Webber is one of the 3 or 4 best qualifiers F1 so for Vettel to beat by some margin is hugely impressive.

Webbers pace advantage over Heidfeld was greater than Kubica's, I think people put Webber down to discredit Vettel.

Trulli too was an excellent qualifier, so for Alonso to match him and Hamilton in qualifying suggests that he is too, something that he doesn't get enough credit for.

Everyone knows who the best drivers are, there are no real secrets, the best drivers drive for the best teams because the best teams know who the best drivers are. Alonso and Vettel are the best and don't need to prove anything.

It's easy to appear the best when even if you have a bad race you still finish ahead of your teammate. Perhaps Alonso doesn't have anything to prove; he's already proven he can't take being beaten by a teammate. Vettel is still unproven in this regard though I don't think he'd take it very well either.

I think a fair chunk of F1 is myth built on what people want to see. I remember a few pundits talking about Thursday practice in Monaco and raving about how Alonso was noticeably closer to the ragged edge than anyone else, skimming barriers for fun. Just another day in the superhuman life of Fernando Alonso...

[Brother Fox]

When have either of these two drivers had a world class teammate who will challenge them all the way? - excluding 2007 because we all know how that went bla bla bla.

I would love to see Kimi go up against Vettel and see Alonso get a teammate that can challenge him. To see Nico and Lewis battling it out is fun and interesting for the fans as they are quite evenly matched at the moment.

Do you want to put up a list of Kimi's 'world class' teammates?
Arguably Monotya, but he never seemed to fit in right to F1.
Fact is they best drivers make good drivers look ordinary.

Its more of a rarity to see something like Alonso/Hamilton and Button/Hamilton than the norm.

Absolutely. People forget how highly rated Trulli and particularly Fisi still were prior to them getting destroyed by Alonso.

[V3TT3L]

When have either of these two drivers had a world class teammate who will challenge them all the way? - excluding 2007 because we all know how that went bla bla bla.

Alonso

2001 - Tarso Marques / Ales Yoong
2003 2004- Trulli
2005 2006 Fisichella
2007 - Hamilton
2008- Piquet
2009 - Piquet - Grosjean
2010 -13 Massa

Vettel
2007 -08 Bourdais
09 - 13 Webber

[RealRacing]

Really? Then explain to me why we have DRS and the current Pirelli tyre.

You asking this question already tells me how you see F1. Never mind then.

Edited by RealRacing, 17 June 2013 - 01:36.

[bourbon]

It's easy to appear the best when even if you have a bad race you still finish ahead of your teammate.

To you. Frankly, I don't salivate while waiting on the final scoreboard to see where Massa came in relative to Alonso after the race. Seriously, who does that? I couldn't care less where teammates come in, so I certainly could not make any determinations about how great one appears on that basis. So I don't think your conclusion works because not everyone sits around comparing teammate finish positions.

Perhaps Alonso doesn't have anything to prove; he's already proven he can't take being beaten by a teammate. Vettel is still unproven in this regard though I don't think he'd take it very well either.

Show me the champion that does?

[fullhouse]

Alonso

2003 2004- Trulli
2005 2006 Fisichella
2007 - Hamilton
2010 -13 Massa

That's a list of highly rated, talented, and established world class drivers. In case you didn't know, in the early 2000s, everyone was calling for Fisichella to be Michaels team mate to take him on because he was so highly rated by so many, including the drivers.

[Kingshark]

Some people on here need to read this thread:

http://forums.autosp...showtopic=36250

You want to talk about highly rated? Fisichella was rated as highly as Schumacher back in the early 2000's! Of course, because Alonso trashed him, it doesn't count.

Same goes with Massa, he melted the iceman, challenged and nearly beat Lewis Hamilton for the 2008 WDC. But again, because Alonso has dominated him, he doesn't count as a great teammate.

Alonso has taken on plenty of great drivers as teammates, and none of them bar Hamilton shook him. I'm sure he'd be relatively comfortable taking on Vettel.

Speaking of Vettel, him trashing Webber too deserves some credit too, Mark was genuinely known as an excellent qualifier before he teamed up with Seb Vet, who's outshone him thoroughly.

Of course, some people here want to believe that because Hamilton's gone up against a stronger teammate line-up than anyone else, he is somehow more proven than Alonso and Vettel.

Edited by Kingshark, 17 June 2013 - 03:10.

[HaydenFan]

I'm a team fan and take pleasure in seeing the TEAM win most of all
Inter team battles don't interest me and they are mostly counter-productive too

Exactly! From a marketing side, sure a Kimi-Vettel team would be money in the bank for Red Bull, but what happens when the season winds down and even though both might be one-two in the championship standings, you have to favor one or the other in today's F1. Gone are the days of Senna-Prost for the simple fact that the headaches those collisions between the drivers caused more damage to the team and sport, than their results (albeit the best one-two punch ever in the history of F1) could have done. While Red Bull has that corporate coldness to them, and don't seem to mind in other sports backing the best, when it comes to F1, not since the Speed/Liuzzi year and a half at STR, have they allowed for two guys in their cars who were treated as "equals".

That's why promotion from the Junior Program at Red Bull is so backlogged right now. I think Red Bull fears another driver taking a serious challenge to Vettel, so they avoid calling up one of their reserves. Whether that's now with Ricciardo or Vergne, or in the past with Buemi, Alguersuari, or the host of obvious talented drivers who have been backed by the team over the better part of the last decade.

[TheThirdTenor1]

I remember a few pundits talking about Thursday practice in Monaco and raving about how Alonso was noticeably closer to the ragged edge than anyone else, skimming barriers for fun. Just another day in the superhuman life of Fernando Alonso...

I think this was Brundle who said this, who is not exactly an Alonso fan. He was standing trackside though, and if that is what he saw, then why should he not report it?

[Alcibiades]

I think that its still early days in Vettels career. He may turn out to be viewed as the best of all he raced against. The issue for him is that until he races some other teammates, we are not going to know how he good he is because he has so far only beaten Webber in equal machinary. That doesn't mean he lacks anything just that we don't know yet. He has won his titles and races and shown himself to be very good but we don't know how good yet. How good has the Red Bull been over the last four and a half seasons? I think this will become apparant in time.

On the subject of Massa, Fisichella and Trulli, whislt they were all rated as potentially very good they haven't/didn't actually deliver either up against Alonso or others during their careers to see them as champions. Opinions vary but inter team battles have been of interest to me going back to the late seventies and early eighties as a key way to evaluate how good drivers are. Seeing Senna and Prost in the same team or Alonso and Hamilton or Mansell and Piquet was in many ways as good as it gets. Drivers and fans can always hide behind car and team differences but when tow drivers get into essentially the same car over a season they are fully exposed to comparison. As an F1 fan I want to see Vettel up against a couple more top drivers in the same team. It is true that its often not what is best for the team but for the fans it can be great entertainment.

[redreni]

I remember Heidfeld giving an interview with F1 racing magazine a few years ago were he said that Webber was the fastest teammate he ever had which is quite something when you consider how good Raikkonen and Kubica are. I think Webber is one of the 3 or 4 best qualifiers F1 so for Vettel to beat by some margin is hugely impressive.

Webbers pace advantage over Heidfeld was greater than Kubica's, I think people put Webber down to discredit Vettel.

A teammate is not necessarily a fixed comparator, though. Webber is not getting any younger. Moreover in 09 and 10 Vettel‘s qualifying record vs Webber wasn‘t exactly dominant on the Bridgestones. Also, when presented with a chance to win the title in 10, Webber choked. Otherwise he would have beaten Vettel. He wasn‘t under championship pressure when he was outqualifying Nick Heidfeld, was he? For whatever reason, age, tyre characteristics, inability to handle pressure, there‘s reason to suspect the Mark Webber that Vettel eventually, from the third year onwards, managed to dominate, is a weaker force than the considerably younger Mark Webber that was too quick for Heidfeld.

[handel]

Really? Then explain to me why we have DRS and the current Pirelli tyre.

Because they were cheaper to implement than other solutions, didn't completely nullify the huge amounts of cash poured into Aero by the teams and they pleased 80% of fans by increasing overtaking. All you need to do is please most of the fans for the series to be a business success.

[EthanM]

Seeing Senna and Prost in the same team or Alonso and Hamilton or Mansell and Piquet was in many ways as good as it gets.

And which of these three pairings you describe worked out? Let me help you, none.
Teams don't exist to prove point to random people on the internet, teams exist to win. And the best way to win is to have a second driver that can push your lead driver enough to keep him on his toes but not so much all out war explodes.

[Clatter]

When have either of these two drivers had a world class teammate who will challenge them all the way? - excluding 2007 because we all know how that went bla bla bla.

I would love to see Kimi go up against Vettel and see Alonso get a teammate that can challenge him. To see Nico and Lewis battling it out is fun and interesting for the fans as they are quite evenly matched at the moment.

Doesn't anyone else want to see these number 1 drivers battle it out with their teammate instead beating them fairly easy season after season.

Alonso

2003 2004- Trulli
2005 2006 Fisichella
2007 - Hamilton
2008- Piquet
2009 - Piquet - Grosjean
2010 -13 Massa

Vettel
2007 -08 Bourdais
09 - 13 Webber

When Alonso was pitted against Trulli and Fisi both drivers were held in reasonably high regard to now say they were not world class teammates is purely based on hindsight. Plus it shouldn't be forgotten that many still think Trulli was ousted from the team because he was proving to much of a challange.

The same can be said of Webber. His stock was high when Vettel joined the team.

I'm sure if either FA or SV were put up against the likes of Kimi etc. and soundly beat them you would then say that they were not world class either.

[fullhouse]

. Plus it shouldn't be forgotten that many still think Trulli was ousted from the team because he was proving to much of a challange.

Its forgotten because its a ridiculous myth. Can't take anyone seriously who posts that. Trulli was performing terribly when he was sacked because he wanted too much money, and then started publicly bagging the team for his poor performances,.

Edited by fullhouse, 17 June 2013 - 10:52.

[Clatter]

Its forgotten because its a ridiculous myth. Can't take anyone seriously who posts that. Trulli was performing terribly when he was sacked because he wanted too much money, and then started publicly bagging the team for his poor performances,.

It's funny how many drivers started performing badly when Flavio got his knives out, yet he was beating Alonso in the championship.

[fullhouse]

It's funny how many drivers started performing badly when Flavio got his knives out, yet he was beating Alonso in the championship.

It's so funny at the excuses people and drivers find to blame for lack of performance.

Edited by fullhouse, 17 June 2013 - 11:04.

[Collombin]

And which of these three pairings you describe worked out? Let me help you, none.

Senna - Prost won 25 of 32 races, dominating both championships in both years, and the relationship was harmonious for most of the time.

So the team won everything there was to win, and their rivalry enthralled the fans (something sadly unusual when one team has a dominant car).

There have been pairings of great drivers that could be considered a failure. Senna - Prost ain't one of them.

[Clatter]

It's so funny at the excuses people and drivers find to blame for lack of performance.

Where was that lack of performance earlier in the season?

[fullhouse]

Where was that lack of performance earlier in the season?

So you have never seen a drivers performance fluctuate over a season? If he has a good start and struggled later on, it must be sabotage? The lack of performance was from Alonso. Once he sorted things out as he always does, Trulli crumbled under the pressure, attacked the team publicly and was sacked. Pretty simple really.

Edited by fullhouse, 17 June 2013 - 11:19.

[Clatter]

So you have never seen a drivers performance fluctuate over a season? If he has a good start and struggled later on, it must be sabotage? The lack of performance was from Alonso. Once he sorted things out as he always does, Trulli crumbled under the pressure, attacked the team publicly and was sacked. Pretty simple really.

If you say so. Personally I don't believe it was that simple.

[PaulTodd]

It's hard to compare team mates that have been at McLaren under Ron Dennis era. He always used to fall in love with a driver and at that point the other driver was a secondary importance.

And to be fair every team is like that, but Mclaren pretend it's equal.

[motorhead]

Absolutely. People forget how highly rated Trulli and particularly Fisi still were prior to them getting destroyed by Alonso.

The races where Trulli and Alonso both finished were 4-4. That isn´t actually destroying...

[TheThirdTenor1]

The races where Trulli and Alonso both finished were 4-4. That isn´t actually destroying...

You do realise they were team mates in 2003 as well?

[prty]

It's funny how many drivers started performing badly when Flavio got his knives out, yet he was beating Alonso in the championship.

Check the positions they were running in in the races before their DNF's...

[BillBald]

You do realise they were team mates in 2003 as well?

So in 2004 Trulli recovered well, even though he'd been well beaten in 2003.

That's not my idea of being 'destroyed'.

If he was destroyed by anyone, it was Flavio Briatore.