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Are Red Bull cheating?


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#1 Owen

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 12:51

Suspicions of traction control being used by RBR

http://www.f1pulse.c...

'that' pic

https://twitter.com/...8461184/photo/1


thoughts??

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#2 moorsey

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 12:55

Suspicions of traction control being used by RBR

http://www.f1pulse.c...

'that' pic

https://twitter.com/...8461184/photo/1


thoughts??


If not traction control then maybe ABS system. Either that or he is bloody good at cadence breaking. :D

#3 Diablobb81

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 12:58

Now all we need is another driver sitting near the track and telling us he hears TC.

#4 pRy

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 12:58

Video: http://www.youtube.c...p;v=zxig8iM7jDU

Possible I suppose that the track on that side is more bumpy and the tyres were just having a hard time finding a smooth surface to grip on?

#5 Dunder

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 13:00

Never say never, but as evidence goes, that is fairly flimsy.

It would be very hard to hide a TC system from the current electronics.

#6 Lights

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 13:03

Red Bull cheating?

Never.

#7 Clatter

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 13:04

If not traction control then maybe ABS system. Either that or he is bloody good at cadence breaking. :D


Why would ABS kick in in the acceleration zone?

#8 Dunder

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 13:05

If not traction control then maybe ABS system. Either that or he is bloody good at cadence breaking. :D


..... and then for the FIA to find the software?

#9 Nomore

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 13:05

Something new ??

We all know that Red Bull cheat.

#10 JimiKart

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 13:06

That video is anything but flimsy, what's your explanation for it other than "TC is hard to hide"???

In before the lock... It's been my contention that RB have been the best at skirting the rules, and that's being kind, so ya, they're cheating and just got caught... looks bad on Seb especially, poor guy he's never going to get out from under the RB cover, until he leaves and does well elsewhere he's never gong to get the full respect of fans.

#11 Clatter

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 13:07

Never say never, but as evidence goes, that is fairly flimsy.

It would be very hard to hide a TC system from the current electronics.


You would certainly hope so, and we are led to believe everything is monitored via the ECU, but I'd never bet against any team finding a way past the safeguards.


#12 krapmeister

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 13:07

Fred Flintstone traction control :lol:

#13 Rybo

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 13:07

Video: http://www.youtube.c...p;v=zxig8iM7jDU

Possible I suppose that the track on that side is more bumpy and the tyres were just having a hard time finding a smooth surface to grip on?


An F1 suspension should be able to keep the tire in contact with the surface. But i think the question is how is TC banned? Is it a gentleman agreement to not use it or is it restricted in the McLaren ECU??

#14 Rocket73

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 13:08

Certainly looks fishy...I am sure they will wriggle out of it.

Edited by Rocket73, 18 June 2013 - 13:09.


#15 Szoelloe

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 13:08

Of course they are. Why do you think they refused to test with Pirelli?

#16 EvanRainer

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 13:08

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Is this supposed to be an "article" ? What is this joke of a website? Some muppet with an agenda takes something people have already discussed and agreed is nothing and does a sensationalist spin on it for click-bait.

But sure, lets have a 10 page thread for it to create more myths.

#17 Szoelloe

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 13:10

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Is this supposed to be an "article" ? What is this joke of a website? Some muppet with an agenda takes something people have already discussed and agreed is nothing and does a sensationalist spin on it for click-bait.

But sure, lets have a 10 page thread for it to create more myths.


oh, but its fun. F1 pulse.


#18 skywing

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 13:10

Have they repaved the asphalt in the hairpin? The horizontal black line in the picture looks like the edge between new and old asphalt.

And the skid marks only get jagged after the black line so it could be IMO because of bumpier surface.

#19 EvanRainer

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 13:10

And sure enough, before I even finished typing my post, here comes a barrage of people treating this as "fact" already :lol:

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#20 jimjimjeroo

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 13:10

On board audio would be more conclusive

#21 pdac

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 13:11

Are Red Bull cheating?

If they are not, then they are stupid - everyone and their grandma is cheats in F1

#22 weltmeister1995

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 13:11

Oh no yet again another red bull trashing threat.It was not TC,but it was just mark who did a good job with not spinning so hard and controlling the car.
:drunk:

#23 Dunder

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 13:14

That video is anything but flimsy, what's your explanation for it other than "TC is hard to hide"???

In before the lock... It's been my contention that RB have been the best at skirting the rules, and that's being kind, so ya, they're cheating and just got caught... looks bad on Seb especially, poor guy he's never going to get out from under the RB cover, until he leaves and does well elsewhere he's never gong to get the full respect of fans.


It's a bumpy, pitted surface (cold winters, hot summers).

More fundamentally though, how many traction zones have RBR cars accelerated through this season on the course of 7 GP weekends? 2-3000 maybe and the sum total of the evidence is this video/photo? Yes it's flimsy.

No doubt RBR have skirted a few rules (all teams have) but I just don't see it here.


#24 Zava

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 13:14

Have they repaved the asphalt in the hairpin? The horizontal black line in the picture looks like the edge between new and old asphalt.

And the skid marks only get jagged after the black line so it could be IMO because of bumpier surface.

lol, that explanation is so obvious but no one thought about it on f1tech :D nice catch! :up:

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#25 Owen

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 13:15

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Is this supposed to be an "article" ? What is this joke of a website? Some muppet with an agenda takes something people have already discussed and agreed is nothing and does a sensationalist spin on it for click-bait.

But sure, lets have a 10 page thread for it to create more myths.

Source is Autosprint.

#26 Gintonious

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 13:15

He did have his right rear wheel on the grass but he was on the tarmac again for the acceleration part.

I would be surprised of it being TC, didn't McLaren have some sort of nifty system in 2008, that selected a different gearing for lower geared acceleration?

#27 Jovanotti

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 13:24

Is this supposed to be an "article" ? What is this joke of a website? Some muppet with an agenda takes something people have already discussed and agreed is nothing and does a sensationalist spin on it for click-bait.

It's from Autosprint buddy :wave:
http://www.auto.it/a... della Red Bull

#28 weltmeister1995

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 13:26

I can tell you,that nothing will happened, even if you are doing everything to stop the red bull.
The RB9 is tested every weekend by the FIA,and they didnt"t find anything,so its ok.This days its very,very easy to find what is not legal,you know the RB9 has amazing grip and downforce and that might be the reason why Mark could do that with the car.
Oh I also see on Twitter,that one Italian guy did start the threat so nothing new.
Can you please close the threat its silly,because there is no real evidence that red bull do have that TC. :down:

Edited by weltmeister1995, 18 June 2013 - 13:35.


#29 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 13:28

Thing is it lays normal tire tracks initially. Could Webber have been all the way down in first(which you'd only use at the start and pitstops?) which has an engine map of like pre-programmed TC? Instead of a reactive system, it's programmed to have gaps in the throttle application because it knows tire slip is coming before it's happened.

Edited by Ross Stonefeld, 18 June 2013 - 13:28.


#30 EvanRainer

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 13:29

It's from Autosprint buddy :wave:
http://www.auto.it/a... della Red Bull


And?

#31 fabr68

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 13:29

No TC

Those intermittent skid marks are just from Webber and Vettel brilliant skills at pumping the throttle pedal

:rotfl:

#32 Baddoer

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 13:31

I think this is illegal.

#33 FastnLoud

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 13:33

Redbull cheating?

Never!!!

Just like previous seasons, they will have something illegal on their car and be told not to use it for the next race.

#34 weltmeister1995

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 13:34

I think this is illegal.

You think,but I dont,you know it's not TC.Its just the car that is so good and has such a great traction, that it actually seems it's using TC. You might have noticed in canada, they cornering-exit was much faster than the rest, ridiculous.
:wave:

#35 JohnnySchwaffel

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 13:34

isn't traction control (engine mapping software) legal nowadays?

Edited by JohnnySchwaffel, 18 June 2013 - 13:34.


#36 Nomore

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 13:34

Rules of Cheating

#37 Clatter

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 13:34

isn't traction control (engine mapping software) legal nowadays?


No.

#38 Dunder

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 13:36

Thing is it lays normal tire tracks initially. Could Webber have been all the way down in first(which you'd only use at the start and pitstops?) which has an engine map of like pre-programmed TC? Instead of a reactive system, it's programmed to have gaps in the throttle application because it knows tire slip is coming before it's happened.


Would be illegal under the 'Torque demand map' rules. Tech. Reg. 5.5.5 (if memory serves).

#39 JohnnySchwaffel

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 13:36

indeed, I just checked the wiki page, and it's illegal again.

Well, smells like a Schumacher-like trick indeed...

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#40 EvanRainer

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 13:37

It has now been established as "fact" that TC is in use :rolleyes:

This thread is a prime example for the people wondering how myths start.

#41 Jovanotti

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 13:38

And?

Not just a random blog or 'joke of a website' as you named it (I guess you meant the other website with the English article), it has some credibility.

This doesn't mean they're right in this instance, of course.

Edited by Jovanotti, 18 June 2013 - 13:40.


#42 Sin

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 13:41

Funny how this forum is filled with so much RB hatred... objectiveness where are you? o.o... and where are you proof? I'm trying to find you...

Do you really think a bunch of geeks and reporters are smarter, than the people who actually monitor the stuff at the track? If it would have been suspicious there would have been an investigation

#43 HaydenFan

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 13:44

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Is this supposed to be an "article" ? What is this joke of a website? Some muppet with an agenda takes something people have already discussed and agreed is nothing and does a sensationalist spin on it for click-bait.

But sure, lets have a 10 page thread for it to create more myths.


Italian publication is the kicker.

That level of cheating would lead to the FIA to ban a team from not just the season's results, but from competing in F1. I doubt a company like Red Bull, no matter the ruthlessness that might be associated to them, would risk hundreds of millions on their biggest side project for a few more wins and a championship. Just bad business.

#44 EvanRainer

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 13:44

Not just a random blog or 'joke of a website' as you named it (I guess you meant the other website with the English article), it has some credibility.

This doesn't mean they're right in this instance, of course.


Utterly irrelevant.

All there is is a picture of a tyre rubber pattern. There is no proof of TC what so ever.

#45 prty

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 13:44

Thing is it lays normal tire tracks initially. Could Webber have been all the way down in first(which you'd only use at the start and pitstops?) which has an engine map of like pre-programmed TC? Instead of a reactive system, it's programmed to have gaps in the throttle application because it knows tire slip is coming before it's happened.


I don't really have an opinion on this so far, but I think TC back in the days had a threshold speed to engage, so that you can spin the car around if necessary.

#46 EvanRainer

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 13:46

Hey guys! Apparently there are pictures that show Vettel passed under yellow flags in Brazil last year. Have you heard about that??

#47 fabr68

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 13:50

Funny how this forum is filled with so much RB hatred... objectiveness where are you? o.o... and where are you proof? I'm trying to find you...

Do you really think a bunch of geeks and reporters are smarter, than the people who actually monitor the stuff at the track? If it would have been suspicious there would have been an investigation


Last year Red Bull was found to have a suspension adjustment device that can be operated by hand on their cars. I dont think is objectionable for people to think they are beyond the rules again this year.


#48 Sin

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 13:53

Last year Red Bull was found to have a suspension adjustment device that can be operated by hand on their cars. I dont think is objectionable for people to think they are beyond the rules again this year.


they never were beyond them, they stretched them to the limit yes, but if they had been beyond them they would have been punished...

#49 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 13:53

Onto the second page and no mention of an FIA issued ECU? I love these 3 week breaks

#50 handel

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 13:55

Utterly irrelevant.

All there is is a picture of a tyre rubber pattern. There is no proof of TC what so ever.


Meh. You have your mind made up. You're coming across as a touch rude as well btw - best check your attitude.

I think it's a fair enough shout for a thread. Frankly I don't care what the source of it is, those pictures speak for themselves and leave open a question at the very least. If you don't want to debate that question then you don't have to click on the thread - fairly simple to comprehend.

TC is banned in F1 therefore you would expect cars to suffer some wheelspin upon applying the throttle. Wheelspin causes rubber to be deposited on the track, shown clearly by skidmarks. Current car speed & human reactions being what they are you would assume that these marks would be more than a handful of inches in length and then corrected. You would not also expect to see a pattern form as demonstrated in the video which suggests multiple breaks of traction & recoveries from both sides of the car.

I think unfortunately none of us are in a position to see if this is cheating. At a push maybe that's what they can achieve through engine mappings? Not sure if doing it this way gets around the rules or is specifically banned. Would be interesting to see any other examples if they exist.