146 replies to this topic

[F.M.]

So the Mercedes hearing put some new light on the tests Ferrari carried out. And if Mercedes is found guilty, it is very likely we will get a case against Ferrari as well afterall.

The tests:
- 2013 test in Bahrain with the 2011 car driven by Pedro de laRosa.
- 2012 test in Barcelona with (probably) 2011 car driven by Felipe Massa. (Mercedes only makes reference to the 2011 car, comparing its performance to both the 2013 cars (2013 Bahrain test) and the 2012 cars (2012 Barcelona test). No where is a 2010 car mentioned; see below).

Why Ferrari/Pirelli are in the wrong:
- 2011 car does not differ substantially from the 2013 car. Mercedes argues that those cars are only 0.5s slower, showing minimal changes in terms of performance. "They ran their car on track and we argue their car followed substantially with the regulations... I put the marker down. It does not follow that if Ferrari runs on track a 2011 car, that that 2011 car does not confirm substantially to either the 2012 or 2013 regulations. There was only half [a second] difference between the 2011 cars and 2013 cars, showing the changes between 2011 and 2013 are minuscule in terms of performance."
- Testing a 2011 car in 2012 isn't allowed. (Still, it could be a 2010 car that was used, but atm it points to 2011 car)
- The Ferrari tests weren't transparent either.
- There is proof of Ferrari conducting non-Pirelli (tyres) related test runs: There is a run sheet from the Barcelona test that showed the conduction of 'balance tests' in the middle of the day. This becomes especially interesting if the 2012 test was indeed done with a 2011 car, since Ferrari in that case very clearly violated the no-testing rule!
- There was correspondence between Ferrari tyre engineer Hirohide Hamashima and Pirelli on May 3, after the test, talking about details of Pirelli data from the runs. Also asking for additional information from Pirelli.
- The 2012 test violates the 1000km clause Pirelli has, since over a 1000km of running was carried out.

EDIT: FIA states that both Ferrari tests were carried out with a 2 year old car!

Edited by F.M., 20 June 2013 - 13:59.

[Seanspeed]

You really want Ferrari punished, huh?

[lbennie]

wow, seems ferrari have been very naughty as well...

[F.M.]

You really want Ferrari punished, huh?

Where do I say that? You really are offended easily when it comes to Ferrari, no?

Edited by F.M., 20 June 2013 - 13:48.

[Seanspeed]

wow, seems ferrari have been very naughty as well...

There's a ton we dont know. We dont even know all the info about Merc's case and how they will be found.

[Seanspeed]

Where do I say that? You really are offended easily when it comes to Ferrari, no?

I've just been here long enough to know who doesn't like Ferrari.

You're just getting ahead of yourself, thats all, and making some claims in there that are highly debatable and possibly even wrong. Its not worth going into just yet. Need to wait to see what happens with Mercedes first.

[F.M.]

I've just been here long enough to know who doesn't like Ferrari.

You're just getting ahead of yourself, thats all, and making some claims in there that are highly debatable and possibly even wrong. Its not worth going into just yet. Need to wait to see what happens with Mercedes first.

The only part that of those claims that is questionable is what car was used in 2012, and I mentioned that several times in my opening post. All the rest are facts (with proof!) that came to light during the Merc hearing today.
Edit: and this is resolved now as well!

And I'm not getting ahead of myself. Like I said If Mercedes is found guilty...

Edited by F.M., 20 June 2013 - 13:59.

[Seanspeed]

The only part that of those claims that is questionable is what car was used in 2012, and I mentioned that several times in my opening post. All the rest are facts (with proof!) that came to light during the Merc hearing today.

Why Ferrari/Pirelli are in the wrong:
- 2011 car does not differ substantially from the 2013 car

Is extremely debatable.

I wont even go into it. I'll wait til the Merc case is resolved and to see if they take interest in putting Ferrari to the stand. Until then, this is just getting ahead of yourself. You've shown you're quite excited by this going by your posts in other threads, too. But we dont have all the info. They do.

EDIT: Exactly. You're having to update the OP as you get details in. Its early for this.

Edited by Seanspeed, 20 June 2013 - 14:02.

[John Player]

The FIA will never punish Ferrari

[Mc_Silver]

The FIA will never punish Ferrari

lol

[Nomore]

So the Mercedes hearing put some new light on the tests Ferrari carried out. And if Mercedes is found guilty, it is very likely we will get a case against Ferrari as well afterall.

The tests:
- 2013 test in Bahrain with the 2011 car driven by Pedro de laRosa.
- 2012 test in Barcelona with (probably) 2011 car driven by Felipe Massa. (Mercedes only makes reference to the 2011 car, comparing its performance to both the 2013 cars (2013 Bahrain test) and the 2012 cars (2012 Barcelona test). No where is a 2010 car mentioned; see below).

Why Ferrari/Pirelli are in the wrong:
- 2011 car does not differ substantially from the 2013 car. Mercedes argues that those cars are only 0.5s slower, showing minimal changes in terms of performance. "They ran their car on track and we argue their car followed substantially with the regulations... I put the marker down. It does not follow that if Ferrari runs on track a 2011 car, that that 2011 car does not confirm substantially to either the 2012 or 2013 regulations. There was only half [a second] difference between the 2011 cars and 2013 cars, showing the changes between 2011 and 2013 are minuscule in terms of performance."
- Testing a 2011 car in 2012 isn't allowed. (Still, it could be a 2010 car that was used, but atm it points to 2011 car)
- The Ferrari tests weren't transparent either.
- There is proof of Ferrari conducting non-Pirelli (tyres) related test runs: There is a run sheet from the Barcelona test that showed the conduction of 'balance tests' in the middle of the day. This becomes especially interesting if the 2012 test was indeed done with a 2011 car, since Ferrari in that case very clearly violated the no-testing rule!
- There was correspondence between Ferrari tyre engineer Hirohide Hamashima and Pirelli on May 3, after the test, talking about details of Pirelli data from the runs. Also asking for additional information from Pirelli.
- The 2012 test violates the 1000km clause Pirelli has, since over a 1000km of running was carried out.

EDIT: FIA states that both Ferrari tests were carried out with a 2 year old car!

thread closed then ?

[Nomore]

The FIA will never punish Ferrari

they need to break a rule to get punished...? don't they

i understand your desire and in the same time excitement for a Ferrari penalty...but what you desire it may not reflect the reality...

but i also understand the frustration of the anti-Ferrari fans

[Atreiu]

The FIA will never punish Ferrari

/thread

[Seanspeed]

I guess Massa decided to give himself a 3 spot grid penalty in Barcelona.

[Skinnyguy]

I've just been here long enough to know who doesn't like Ferrari.

You see how easy it is to notice this stuff?

[Atreiu]

I guess Massa decided to give himself a 3 spot grid penalty in Barcelona.

Apples and oranges.

[Nomore]

I guess Massa decided to give himself a 3 spot grid penalty in Barcelona.

LOL

Edited by Nomore, 20 June 2013 - 14:56.

[Nomore]

I've just been here long enough to know who doesn't like Ferrari.

I'm new...so i will take your advice in that direction...i guess there are people that we can debate here and also people that is better to ignore

[Burtros]

Apples and oranges.

Bang on with that. I really dont like it when people make such simplistic comparisons like that and your reply is far better than mine would have been.

While this looks like a storm in a teacup given that Ferrari have supposedly tested 2 year old cars on both occassion thus nbot broken any rules, it could be interesting here if Merc get hit hard and Ferrari turn out to be in breach too. I am one of those who think Ferrari get prefferential treatment in Paris, so it'll be fireworks if they are in breach. Bringing this case could be a rod for the FIA's back down the road a little...

As for this 'current spec' stuff. I wouldnt get to worked up by that. Thats far to general if you ask me and the amount of grey area means the Ferrari lawyers will have a field day.

In conclusion, I think nothing will come of it mainly as it appears Ferrari havent broken the common understanding of the rules. If they have though.....

Edited by Burtros, 20 June 2013 - 15:38.

[F.M.]

"The key differences in treatment are plain," said Harris, criticizing a sporting body run by former Ferrari team boss Jean Todt.

"Ferrari were allowed to rely on a verbal confirmation from Pirelli that authorization had been achieved but apparently we are condemned for this.

"Ferrari's dealings with the FIA were non-specific as regards dates, location, names of drivers. They are not criticized but apparently we are," he added.

"Ferrari was even more involved in the actual testing than we were, they booked and paid for the circuit. They are not criticized."

The lawyer went on to say that Ferrari's test in 2013 was not just a Pirelli test.

"One can see from the run sheets ... that in the middle of the day they were doing their own thing," he said. "But they are not criticized. They also exceeded the 1,000 kilometers."

http://www.reuters.c...Name=sportsNews

[Nomore]

Who is Harris ?

[Nomore]

Felipe Massa ...who the hell is Harris ?

i hope that it's not a Mercedes lawyer (to your credibility)....if it's a FIA representative that his words will make a little bit more power and maybe really ferrari were doing something wrong.

If it's a Mercedes person, i understand what he's saying and why he is sayying that.... but it's useless...since basically what he's doing is crying

Edited by Nomore, 20 June 2013 - 15:59.

[Seanspeed]

Apples and oranges.

Only when its convenient.

[Nomore]

Lawyer Paul Harris, representing Mercedes

Opps

[BigCHrome]

It's called FIA and not MIA for a reason.

[ardbeg]

Both tests are fishy. Feels like Merc fell into a trap. To late to drag anyone else down with them. Get that clown suit, Brawn.

[Skinnyguy]

Both tests are fishy. Feels like Merc fell into a trap. To late to drag anyone else down with them. Get that clown suit, Brawn.

My feelings pretty much. I don´t know what Mercedes defense strategy is. How Ferrari being punished benefits them? Only explanation is that maybe they just want to say it´s the same stuff in both cases, so FIA will have to penalize Ferrari too if they get punished, but they maybe think they won´t do that so they´ll get away with it too.

Don´t think that´ll work, they´ll have a hard time showing it´s the same stuff.

[Ferrari2183]

These types of tests have to stop regardless of who is involved.

[Szoelloe]

You really want Ferrari punished, huh?

That is a (common) misconception in this whole situation Sean. I honestly don't think Brawn has brought the topic in front of the IT to try to pull Ferrari down with themselves. It wasn't (punishment) the reason (at least not for me) it was discussed for weeks now elsewhere. It is mainly to highlight how utterly negligently the FIA and Pirelli has handled the regulations and the whole situation for the past years. Not to mention Bernie, who conveniently stays out of this. Speaking for myself, no, I don't want Ferrari punished, but the double-standards this is highlighting is obvious.

[Sakae]

These types of tests have to stop regardless of who is involved.

...or even better, stop introducing badly written nonsensical regulations.

[Nomore]

That is a (common) misconception in this whole situation Sean. I honestly don't think Brawn has brought the topic in front of the IT to try to pull Ferrari down with themselves. It wasn't (punishment) the reason (at least not for me) it was discussed for weeks now elsewhere. It is mainly to highlight how utterly negligently the FIA and Pirelli has handled the regulations and the whole situation for the past years. Not to mention Bernie, who conveniently stays out of this. Speaking for myself, no, I don't want Ferrari punished, but the double-standards this is highlighting is obvious.

it is simply wrong.

2013 car Hamilton Rosberg

2011 car De La Rosa

[Seanspeed]

That is a (common) misconception in this whole situation Sean. I honestly don't think Brawn has brought the topic in front of the IT to try to pull Ferrari down with themselves. It wasn't (punishment) the reason (at least not for me) it was discussed for weeks now elsewhere. It is mainly to highlight how utterly negligently the FIA and Pirelli has handled the regulations and the whole situation for the past years. Not to mention Bernie, who conveniently stays out of this. Speaking for myself, no, I don't want Ferrari punished, but the double-standards this is highlighting is obvious.

I get how its relevant to the Merc case in terms of setting a precedent. As for being messy, sure, but I think you would be wrong in assuming thats why the OP made the thread. Maybe I'm jumping the gun, but the way the post is worded and how he was posting in other threads excited to post the news about Ferrari being involved, points to him just chomping at the bit to see Ferrari get their share, too.

I dont know exactly what has happened. I dont have all the details. If Ferrari did the exact same thing as Merc and dont get punished, its not fair. I'm not trying to defend Ferrari for anything they dont deserve to be defended for. But there does seem to be differences and we dont know exactly what the FIA knows. People will jump to the old 'FIArri' stuff again even though Todt or the FIA have not shown any signs of favoritism since coming into power, and I knew this would happen because people WANT to be able to bring it up again. This gives them a great excuse to, even though we dont know everything. Its all just very predictable and tedious. I'd kinda like to see what happens with Merc and see if we get more info first before diving in on the judgements, thats all.

[EMorris]

"Track testing shall be considered any track running time not part of an Event undertaken by a competitor entered in the Championship, using cars which conform substantially with the current Formula One Technical Regulations in addition to those from the previous or subsequent year."

My understanding of this is that any car which could be raced under the current regulations, the previous years regulations or the following years regulations with minor changes would be against the rules.

Were there any big changes between 2010 and 2011? (All I can remember is the ban on double diffusers). If not then surely the 2010 Ferrari "conforms substantially" with the 2011 regulations barring minor changes and therefore is against the rules.

As the FIA has already cleared Ferrari of any wrongdoing, then surely Mercedes have a strong case of a precedent being set.

Just my take on it

[ardbeg]

it is simply wrong.

2013 car Hamilton Rosberg

2011 car De La Rosa

If you think you are clever, think again.

[Garagiste]

Ross has a magic ruler that proves his team innocent every time.

[MichaelPM]

Why did Pirelli do a test with a 2013 Mercedes if the 2011 Ferrari was so similar to the 2013 car?

Mercedes and Pirelli dug a hole together and now Mercedes is trying to step on Pirelli's story to get back out.

[EMorris]

it is simply wrong.

2013 car Hamilton Rosberg

2011 car De La Rosa

Is there anything in the regulations restricting which drivers can be used? I haven't seen or heard anything

[Nomore]

Is there anything in the regulations restricting which drivers can be used? I haven't seen or heard anything

you could be right on that...but the car is very very very important

[Nomore]

If you think you are clever, think again.

it's not a matter of smartness...i think the situation is clear

one tested with a 2013 car the other with 2011 car

is that really difficult to accept ?

[ardbeg]

it's not a matter of smartness...i think the situation is clear

one tested with a 2013 car the other with 2011 car

is that really difficult to accept ?

Not at all. But the fact that there is differences does not automatically make one right and one wrong.

[Timstr11]

So today the FIA has tried to use the argument of ''advantage gained'' against Mercedes.
This strikes me as an extremely biased stance. I'm really surprised they even tried to use that argument given that Ferrari is doing all sorts of track and tyre testing (reportedly more than 1000 KM) without the governing body stepping in and taking a look at the rules.

[Nomore]

Not at all. But the fact that there is differences does not automatically make one right and one wrong.

I dont know but FIA has the power (via tribunal or not) to declare who is right and who is wrong.

For Ferrari they have said that the case is closed, and dont even need a tribunal.
For Mercedes we will wait tomorrow...

now if you dont trust FIA or you want the case in another court instance, that's another discussion...

[ardbeg]

I dont know but FIA has the power (via tribunal or not) to declare who is right and who is wrong.

For Ferrari they have said that the case is closed, and dont even need a tribunal.
For Mercedes we will wait tomorrow...

now if you dont trust FIA or you want the case in another court instance, that's another discussion...

No, Einstein, that is this discussion. Read the thread title again.

[MMandi]

I am a bit disappointed to hear the lengths Ferrari have gone to with regards to gaining competitive advantages. Although not surprised at all a little part of me did hope that after the whole Mclaren fiasco teams would be more compliant towards the sporting regs etc. It's just that little underwhelming to think that somewhere someone might actually be loosing out by training and doing 'the honest thing' though I guess it's one of the unwritten rules of f1 to cheat if you can't be caught or labelled as such.

[weltmeister1995]

You really want Ferrari punished, huh?

Yes,if they are found guilty they deserved to be punished surely!

Edited by weltmeister1995, 20 June 2013 - 19:38.

[Nomore]

No, Einstein, that is this discussion. Read the thread title again.

You're funny guy (could be the same as the OP but with different username ?), but it seems that you don’t like to read or to understand…or maybe you simply don’t want....

if you don't trust FIA why you watch formula 1 ?

FIA is responsible for equality in this sport, if you don’t trust them, just stop watching F1…. if you continue to watch F1 (even thinking that everything is fake and corrupted) then you are just lying to yourself.

The day I will think FIA is corrupted I will stop watching F1.

The thread is made by a “Ferrari hater” which is just bashing Ferrari referencing what a Mercedes lawyer has said...if you want to make it at least right, you should wait the Ferrari lawyer what he has to said in that matter.

It would have been totally different if he was referencing a FIA lawyer.

In the same time I understand your frustration that Ferrari didn’t break a rule and the excitement that Ferrari could break the rule …but FIA till now has said that Ferrari didn’t break the rule.


Mercedes is free to open a new case.

I hope you are more clear now

[Nomore]

Yes,if they are found guilty they deserved to be punished surely!

agree

[One]

Yes,if they are found guilty they deserved to be punished surely!

This question comes into mind... What will be the point of testing 2014 tire on 1970 formula one car, if you like...

After all:
1. Pirelli is allowed to test tires in season.
2. Some team has to give car to Pirelli to test tire.
3. In theory all teams can test the tire at some points of the season.

Kinda lock this situation up. I mean, what a fuss. red Bull will conduct their test facing Spa, Monza that part of the season just after summer, perhaps.

[Sakae]

One can question legitimacy of victory in Spain, since Ferrari was the only team who leaned on and race tires hard, whereas other tried to preserve them. Some fans attributed this to the smart strategy, but I wonder today how much of that strategy was real-time knowledge what tires can take, something not everyone knew.

Edited by Sakae, 20 June 2013 - 19:57.

[P123]

My feelings pretty much. I don´t know what Mercedes defense strategy is. How Ferrari being punished benefits them? Only explanation is that maybe they just want to say it´s the same stuff in both cases, so FIA will have to penalize Ferrari too if they get punished, but they maybe think they won´t do that so they´ll get away with it too.

Don´t think that´ll work, they´ll have a hard time showing it´s the same stuff.

Their point is that Ferrari did all that without the notification the FIA are demanding Mercedes should have sought, included car specific testing, exceeded the 1000km contracted mileage and Ferrari paid for the test. That smells quite badly in itself, regardless of the fact that they used an older car. It's a tactic to highlight double standards in what the FIA have chosen to pursue.