157 replies to this topic

[F.M.]

With the tribunal behind our backs, what do you expect the outcome will be for Mercedes and what do you hope for?

PS. I didn't make multiple options for fines etc (small, medium, large), but you can post it if you want.

Edited by F.M., 20 June 2013 - 17:55.

[V3TT3L]

Mercedes
Delete all points of Mercedes in WCC before Monaco.
It will inply in a financial punishment at the end of the year in WCC standings Prize Money.

Drivers
A reprimand to Lewis and Nico.

Pirelli
A financial charge to Pirelli.

[Diablobb81]

I expect a light punishment for Merc and have no clue about Pirelli (depends if the Tribunal decides it has jurisdiction).

I expect that the testing rules will be changed with more testing allowed.
I would find it foolish for FIA to sign a new contract with a supplier that doesn't accept it's arbitration rules.

[Zoetrope]

If they truly cheated, and used FIA and Pirelli as tools to achieve their goals - they deserve WCC exclusion. But if it was more of misunderstanding on various sides, and them taking advantage of it (processing the data from tests) I think just a fine would be more appropriate.

But still, I expect they will only get a fine.

[Garagiste]

Not too fussed what happens really, what I expect to happen is cack all.

[Dunder]

I voted Fine/Fine.

There is no doubt in my mind that Mercedes/Brawn tried to game the system to gain a sporting advantage. This was only possible however due to failings by the FIA. To sign a contract with a supplier which contradicts the Sporting Regulations is baffling/incompetent.

[Nomore]

I want :

2 race ban (both home GPs: UK & Germany)

what will happen :

Fine

Edited by Nomore, 20 June 2013 - 18:07.

[Garagiste]

I voted Fine/Fine.

There is no doubt in my mind that Mercedes/Brawn tried to game the system to gain a sporting advantage. This was only possible however due to failings by the FIA. To sign a contract with a supplier which contradicts the Sporting Regulations is baffling/incompetent.

Like that's never happened before and gone unpunished?

[DrProzac]

I expect not guilty. What I would want? Probably the same, but I didn't follow the whole thing close enough to know the situation good enough to make an objective ruling.

[undersquare]

I said warning/warning.

Who knows though. Incredible how badly the FIA write their rules - deliberately under Max but let's see if Todt tightens things up at all.

[wrighty]

Given what's been said about the contact with CW and his backing from Bernard i'd like to think the FIA would grasp that they have some sorting out to do within their own regs and therefore a penalty can't be applied.......but for the sake of clarity for the rest of this season at least i'm expecting a fine and probable loss of some if not all WCC points (which of course becomes a much heavier fine when the prizes are handed out over the winter)

[stillOrange]

Maybe I'm being idealistic and stupid but I want justified and unbiased verdict.
If found not guilty than it's obvious, if guilty than being thrown out of WCC seems right.

[Sakae]

First count: Objective verdict based on consideration of significant contribution by FiA to general confusion of test permissibility
Second count: Anything but above

[MichaelPM]

Verdict I want - No more than Thrown out of WCC, otherwise RBR will lock out qualifying without a Mercedes to challenge them.
Verdict I expect - WCC points deduction

[muramasa]

Havent followed closely but anything more than warning is too much imo.
i understand such testing is quite an unfair advantage in nature and was done in rather underhanded way, but it's everyone's fault to not able to reach such basic consensus beforehand.

[r4mses]

Two race ban for Pirelli. Heard it here first.

[Realyn]

If Mercedes are found guilty(which at this point isn't the question anymore imho), I hope the drivers get smacked by the court aswell. That's the one thing that allways pissed me off about crashgate and other incidents. You can argue that Alonso didn't knew what was going to happen, but you would be a fool to say that he didn't find out later.

Same thing with Mercedes now. Hamilton and Rosberg drove a 2013 car in a season where testing is forbidden. They knew what they are doing. And no, they are not puppets without a free will.

Edited by Realyn, 20 June 2013 - 19:14.

[undersquare]

If Mercedes are found guilty(which at this point isn't the question anymore imho), I hope the drivers get smacked by the court aswell. That's the one thing that allways pissed me off about crashgate and other incidents. You can argue that Alonso didn't knew what was going to happen, but you would be a fool to say that he didn't find out later.

Same thing with Mercedes now. Hamilton and Rosberg drove a 2013 car in a season where testing is forbidden. They knew what they are doing. And no, they are not puppets without a free will.

Which other drivers do you think would have refused to drive?

[EthanM]

If Mercedes are found guilty the only penalty that IMO balances out the sporting advantages gained would be a race ban. Perhaps one or two races

What will actually happen, I think probably a fine and at worst a race exclusion with probably a one or two year probation

[Realyn]

Which other drivers do you think would have refused to drive?

None.

My point is: if Mercedes are found guilty, so should the drivers who drove the car. I was very suprised that they weren't summoned by the court.

Edited by Realyn, 20 June 2013 - 19:19.

[Longtimefan]

What I want:- ALL points (or constructor points) removed for the 2013 season. They gained an unfair advantage.

What I expect:- A fine, which imo would be a total and utter joke, you tell me one team that wouldn't LOVE to pay a simple fine in order to get extra testing.

[ardbeg]

If Mercedes are found guilty(which at this point isn't the question anymore imho), I hope the drivers get smacked by the court aswell. That's the one thing that allways pissed me off about crashgate and other incidents. You can argue that Alonso didn't knew what was going to happen, but you would be a fool to say that he didn't find out later.

Same thing with Mercedes now. Hamilton and Rosberg drove a 2013 car in a season where testing is forbidden. They knew what they are doing. And no, they are not puppets without a free will.

-"Ross, I think it is wrong, I refuse to take part in this test"
-"This test is perfectly legal, but please use this helmut"
-"I feel weak"

[Szoelloe]

None.

My point is, if Mercedes are found guilty, so should the drivers who drove the car and not be completly ignored in the whole case. I was very suprised that they weren't summoned by the court.

that's funny

[ardbeg]

None.

My point is: if Mercedes are found guilty, so should the drivers who drove the car. I was very suprised that they weren't summoned by the court.

If Mercedes are found guilty, so are the drivers that drove the car. They are part of the team. But you want special punishments for them, no? What about the trcuk driver who drove the cars to the track?

[Zoetrope]

Which other drivers do you think would have refused to drive?

Yea, it remind me of putting blame on drivers for strategic mistakes during the race. As much as a driver won't argue about strategy with 6 pit wall guys with computers and his race engineer, a driver won't argue about law issues with top notch lawyers and his own boss.

[Callisto]

What I want:- ALL points (or constructor points) removed for the 2013 season. They gained an unfair advantage.

What I expect:- A fine, which imo would be a total and utter joke, you tell me one team that wouldn't LOVE to pay a simple fine in order to get extra testing.

May I ask,would you have the same opinion if MSC was still driving for Merc?

[charly0418]

They're not going to do anything to the drivers and their personal points.

I hope Merc really gets punished but lets be realistic here, some of you are calling for reprimands to both drivers, that wont happen. They are employees and did as instructed by their boss

[bourbon]

Sadly it will probably just be a fine. There should be heavy WCC point deductions instead - or tossed from the WCC race this year.

[MMandi]

If Mercedes are found guilty(which at this point isn't the question anymore imho), I hope the drivers get smacked by the court aswell. That's the one thing that allways pissed me off about crashgate and other incidents. You can argue that Alonso didn't knew what was going to happen, but you would be a fool to say that he didn't find out later.

Same thing with Mercedes now. Hamilton and Rosberg drove a 2013 car in a season where testing is forbidden. They knew what they are doing. And no, they are not puppets without a free will.

Surely it is incredibly naive to think that an employee would purposely separate him/herself from the rest of the team and boss when asked to carry out precisely what they are under contract to. I don't know that much but I would assume that drivers are employed to drive and give feedback (and collect maximum points on race weekends) to the car. Not sure the last time we heard a driver lauded for their great moral conduct which made them holier than thou stood next to their team.

[One]

Two race ban for Pirelli. Heard it here first.

Money sanction to Merc. No points. FIA informally but surprisingly gave this indication to accept Pirelli "Conducting" test on '13 Merc car, this was unbelievable. Should be warned.

If Pirelli gets two race bans, on what tire should teams race?

[robefc]

There doesn't seem to be an option for 'fine the FIA £100m and ban them from ever running any type of motorsports category ever again because they are complete buffoons'.

People calling for the drivers to be punished is amusing.

Edited by robefc, 20 June 2013 - 19:33.

[Sakae]

They're not going to do anything to the drivers and their personal points.

I hope Merc really gets punished but lets be realistic here, some of you are calling for reprimands to both drivers, that wont happen. They are employees and did as instructed by their boss

Not that I am looking for an argument, but your position is then, that employees of an F1 team are not familiar with testing regulations, they cannot question decision to test, nor refuse to do wrong thing? Strange labor law.

Edited by Sakae, 20 June 2013 - 19:34.

[Realyn]

If Mercedes are found guilty, so are the drivers that drove the car. They are part of the team. But you want special punishments for them, no? What about the trcuk driver who drove the cars to the track?

They're not going to do anything to the drivers and their personal points.

I hope Merc really gets punished but lets be realistic here, some of you are calling for reprimands to both drivers, that wont happen. They are employees and did as instructed by their boss

So did Nelson Piquet Jr. ... I guess? So your opinion of him didn't changed at all after he crashed on purpose? We all know that he wasn't able to deliver at Renault, that his seat was threatened and he was told to crash by his boss.

Before someone comes around and tells me that those 2 things aren't the same - no they are not. But it's about the "instructed by their boss" argument.

[KnucklesAgain]

I think Merc tried to game the system and Pirelli behaved very stupid, but had been put into an impossible position by FIA, Bernie, and teams. I think it would be fair of Merc got some kind of penalty like fine + WCC points deduction, but I can't see what to charge Pirelli with, assuming they stuck to their FIA contract.

My preferred outcome however would be acquittal for both parties on the grounds of grossly ambiguous rules and confusing lack of any process, because I want FIA exposed for the utter incompetence they have shown for decades.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 20 June 2013 - 19:36.

[Atreiu]

There doesn't seem to be an option for 'fine the FIA £100m and ban them from ever running any type of motorsports category ever again because they are complete buffoons'.

People calling for the drivers to be punished is amusing.

I wonder if they think a certain driver should have been punished after his team fixed a race with their other driver crashing out on purpose. Seems quite similar. The team was in breach, one driver was certainly in breach, the other might have not known, but he remains guilty for winning and earning his team more points and money (and thus cheating others form it) after the incident.

Edited by Atreiu, 20 June 2013 - 20:01.

[MMandi]

There doesn't seem to be an option for 'fine the FIA £100m and ban them from ever running any type of motorsports category ever again because they are complete buffoons'.

People calling for the drivers to be punished is amusing.

Agreed, pretty atrocious handling by them regarding regulations.

Edited by MMandi, 20 June 2013 - 19:41.

[Sakae]

There doesn't seem to be an option for 'fine the FIA £100m and ban them from ever running any type of motorsports category ever again because they are complete buffoons'.

People calling for the drivers to be punished is amusing.

I am all for dealing with FiA, and Ecclestone/MM crowd especially, but if Mercedes deem to broke rules, then it also goes hand in hand they benefitted, and that, unfortunately, includes drivers. Drivers alone could have requested to be excused from the test, and Mercedes could do nothing about it, but as it stands, they are part of the mix now, like it or not.

Edited by Sakae, 20 June 2013 - 19:45.

[One]

There doesn't seem to be an option for 'fine the FIA £100m and ban them from ever running any type of motorsports category ever again because they are complete buffoons'.

People calling for the drivers to be punished is amusing.

Where should this 100 mil go? I am at a loss. To Bernie? then to teams?

Non comprendo...

[undersquare]

So did Nelson Piquet Jr. ... I guess? So your opinion of him didn't changed at all after he crashed on purpose? We all know that he wasn't able to deliver at Renault, that his seat was threatened and he was told to crash by his boss.

Before someone comes around and tells me that those 2 things aren't the same - no they are not. But it's about the "instructed by their boss" argument.

The drivers are employees. The team ethic is incredibly strong in motorsport - everyone has their roles and they stick to them otherwise the team can't function. Any driver does what he's told in that situation as the FIA obviously understands. They won't be going after the mechanics either.

Piquet btw I'm pretty sure was supposed to spin and stall but he cocked it up. There probably are drivers who would have refused, and also some others who'd also have gone along with it to keep their F1 career alive. It's too different tho.

[scheivlak]

What I want: some kind of punishment for Pirelli, being responsible for the test. The FIA is perfectly allowed to do so, as they (Pirelli) are a service supplier.
I also want the FIA rules amended so every party -team or tyre supplier- has to notify the FIA from now on when they will be testing and with whom. The FIA has to take care that the information will be made public to all immediately.

What I expect: some kind of slap on the wrist for Mercedes, e.g exclusion from the young driver test next month. And e.g. an advice to the FIA about their decision making process and the way they handle information and communication.

Edited by scheivlak, 20 June 2013 - 19:58.

[SomersetEd]

Hi all,

Long time reader, first post in the forum. I thought about this long and hard and felt the most suitable penalty if I was the judge would be banning Mercedes from 2 of the 4 pre season tests next season. 1 of the tests would be banned so that sporting parity is restored, the 2nd test would be banned as punishment. It wouldn't kill the team and would still give them an opportunity to compete; albeit with lack of testing in the new regulations. I think this would be the best all round penalty, and one which would not force Mercedes from the sport, which I feel nobody wants.

Ed

[Sakae]

The drivers are employees. The team ethic is incredibly strong in motorsport - everyone has their roles and they stick to them otherwise the team can't function. Any driver does what he's told in that situation as the FIA obviously understands. They won't be going after the mechanics either.

Piquet btw I'm pretty sure was supposed to spin and stall but he cocked it up. There probably are drivers who would have refused, and also some others who'd also have gone along with it to keep their F1 career alive. It's too different tho.

Hamilton was worry about his career with Mercedes, thus he could not excuse himself because of fear? That's what we are supposed to believe?

[Realyn]

The drivers are employees. The team ethic is incredibly strong in motorsport - everyone has their roles and they stick to them otherwise the team can't function. Any driver does what he's told in that situation as the FIA obviously understands. They won't be going after the mechanics either.

Piquet btw I'm pretty sure was supposed to spin and stall but he cocked it up. There probably are drivers who would have refused, and also some others who'd also have gone along with it to keep their F1 career alive. It's too different tho.

Well, so your standpoint is:

-Driver fixes a race - FIA understands, because he was asked to do so
-Driver ignores testing rule(verdict isn't out yet, so don't nail me on that one) - FIA understands, because was asked to do so

What's next? Torro Rosso driver crashes into [Merc car], [Ferrari car] or [Lotus car] - FIA understands, because he was told to do so. All that peer pressure ....

And please stop the talk about mechanics and truck drivers. You can have 300 from them on your team, but only one guy in the car who will tell how you the car and tyres felt.

Edited by Realyn, 20 June 2013 - 20:07.

[MMandi]

Hi all,

Long time reader, first post in the forum. I thought about this long and hard and felt the most suitable penalty if I was the judge would be banning Mercedes from 2 of the 4 pre season tests next season. 1 of the tests would be banned so that sporting parity is restored, the 2nd test would be banned as punishment. It wouldn't kill the team and would still give them an opportunity to compete; albeit with lack of testing in the new regulations. I think this would be the best all round penalty, and one which would not force Mercedes from the sport, which I feel nobody wants.

Ed

New like me welcome

Well, so your standpoint is:

-Driver fixes a race - FIA understands, because he was asked to do so
-Driver ignores testing rule(verdict isn't out yet, so don't nail me on that one) - FIA understands, because was asked to do so

What's next? Torro Rosso driver crashes into [Merc car], [Ferrari car] or [Renault car] - FIA understands, because he was told to do so. All that peer pressure ....

And please stop the talk about mechanics and truck driver. You can have 300 from them on your team, but only one guy in the car who will tell how you the car and tyres felt.

Your post seems to assume a couple of things though mainly that a driver would have enough time to be aware of the intricacies of the rule books. If even the guys who are employed to comb through these walls of texts to find loopholes aren't always sure why would would you expect the driver to.? Personally I think that is outside their jurisdiction. Asking a driver to crash into someone is a separate thing all together as it asks the person to risk their safety along with that of others.

Edited by MMandi, 20 June 2013 - 20:11.

[Realyn]

New like me welcome



Your post seems to assume a couple of things though mainly that a driver would have enough time to be aware of the intricacies of the rule books. If even the guys who are employed to comb through these walls of texts to find loopholes aren't always sure why would would you expect the driver to.? Personally I think that is outside their jurisdiction. Asking a driver to crash into someone is a separate thing all together as it asks the person to risk their safety along with that of others.

For one, yes I believe that the Mercedes drivers knew something was fishy.
Also, like I have said before, crashing into someone and this testing stuff isn't the same, no. What I simply don't understand at all is this "The drivers are employees" mentality.
No offense, but what the ****. Do you have the same mentality in your own job? Wíll you do anything your boss asks of you without any moral standpoints whatsoever?

edit: just to clarify one thing: They got into their 2013 cars to test stuff. As far as we know this is the first time a tyre test happened with a current year car. The drivers don't need to read walls of text to catch that.

Edited by Realyn, 20 June 2013 - 20:22.

[MMandi]

For one, yes I believe that the Mercedes drivers knew something was fishy.
Also, like I have said before, crashing into someone and this testing stuff isn't the same, no. What I simply don't understand at all is this "The drivers are employees" mentality.
No offense, but what the ****. Do you have the same mentality in your own job? Wíll you do anything your boss asks of you without any moral standpoints whatsoever?

edit: just to clarify one thing: They got into their 2013 cars to test stuff. As far as we know this is the first time a tyre test happened with a current year car. The drivers don't need to read walls of text to catch that.

Apart from the fact that i'm not resorting to profanity to argue with you I do sense that for whatever reason this seems to be really heating you up which may be affecting your reasoning, so i'll excuse you babe. Anyway statements such as the bold part above are categorised as opinions. I don't particularly understand where you are going with your opinions with regards to trying to use them as hardened evidence nor do I understand why you would expect them to hold much weight against facts in a logical argument. To me the most logical thing here is to expect that the drivers were asked to do the duties that their contract expects them to carry out, drive and provide feedback.

Edited by MMandi, 20 June 2013 - 20:33.

[Realyn]

Apart from the fact that i'm not resorting to profanity to argue with you I do sense that for whatever reason this seems to be really heating you up which may be affecting your reasoning, so i'll excuse you babe. Anyway statements such as the bold part above are categorised as opinions. I don't particularly understand where you are going with your opinions with regards to trying to use them as hardened evidence nor do I understand why you would expect them to hold much weight against facts in a logical argument. To me the most logical thing here is to expect that the drivers were asked to do the duties that their contract expects them to carry out, drive and provide feedback.

Well, going to repeat myself once again. If you read my first post in this thread I said "If Mercedes are found guilty, so should the drivers and be called out by the court". If Mercedes aren't found guilty, that's completly fine with me aswell. I have a problem with drivers getting away when those "scandals" happen and not with the Mercedes drivers in particular.

I posted the first sentence as my personal opinion which has nothing to do with your "they are employees and do what is said in their contract" argument.

[robefc]

For one, yes I believe that the Mercedes drivers knew something was fishy.
Also, like I have said before, crashing into someone and this testing stuff isn't the same, no. What I simply don't understand at all is this "The drivers are employees" mentality.
No offense, but what the ****. Do you have the same mentality in your own job? Wíll you do anything your boss asks of you without any moral standpoints whatsoever?

edit: just to clarify one thing: They got into their 2013 cars to test stuff. As far as we know this is the first time a tyre test happened with a current year car.

The drivers don't need to read walls of text to catch that.

No but perhaps when their boss told them that an FIA lawyer has cleared the test they didn't think to get their own legal opinion before proceeding.

Talk of morals is hilarious. Being asked to crash your car = moral dilemma, being asked to test in what you have been assured is a legal test isn't.

Although I will say this, if Brawn told Lewis that Charlie had ok'd it...well that might have given him pause for thought!

[MMandi]

Well, going to repeat myself once again. If you read my first post in this thread I said "If Mercedes are found guilty, so should the drivers and be called out by the court". If Mercedes aren't found guilty, that's completly fine with me aswell. I have a problem with drivers getting away when those "scandals" happen and not with the Mercedes drivers in particular.

I posted the first sentence as my personal opinion which has nothing to do with your "they are employees and do what is said in their contract" argument.

Oh right... now everything you said seems completely reasonable and rational thanks for making me aware.

No but perhaps when their boss told them that an FIA lawyer has cleared the test they didn't think to get their own legal opinion before proceeding.

Talk of morals is hilarious. Being asked to crash your car = moral dilemma, being asked to test in what you have been assured is a legal test isn't.

Although I will say this, if Brawn told Lewis that Charlie had ok'd it...well that might have given him pause for thought!

Indeed and in motor racing of all places

Edited by MMandi, 20 June 2013 - 20:49.

[Realyn]

No but perhaps when their boss told them that an FIA lawyer has cleared the test they didn't think to get their own legal opinion before proceeding.

Talk of morals is hilarious. Being asked to crash your car = moral dilemma, being asked to test in what you have been assured is a legal test isn't.

Although I will say this, if Brawn told Lewis that Charlie had ok'd it...well that might have given him pause for thought!

Source for the FIA lawyer please.

From todays sitting:

“This communication (Whiting’s message to Brawn) was not an agreement by the FIA – it was nothing more than Whiting and Bernard’s interpretation of [article] 22.”