149 replies to this topic

[Gorma]

The V10s will go down as the best sounding engines in car racing history. Now we've got turbocharged motorcycles engines. Next will be electric motors. That's fine. But it sure as takes the acoustic part of F1. Now the best sound, honestly, may be nascars.

Nope. Ferrari V12s sounded better.

[phoenix101]

4) With a smaller RPM operating range, it *can't* have as great of a pitch swing, and in turn - less "emotional expression".
5) With a much lower redline, it *can't* sound more exotic than "other race car engines" that rev to similar rpms.

What are you talking about?

The theoretical rev band is 4,500rpm, and they will use all of it regardless of what armchair pundits have been postulating. Furthermore, you don't seem to understand how harmonics work. Each octave requires double frequency, thus, you notice a much bigger pitch swing between 1,000rpm and 2,000rpm than 17,000rpm and 18,000rpm.

The sound of the cars is down to the firing order and exhaust setup. An inline 4-cylinder motorcycle engine with 180-degree crank revving at 18,000rpm sounds almost identical to an F1 car, despite having 50% fewer cylinders.



Personally, I'm really happy the decibel levels will be reduced b/c it lessens the likelihood of regulatory intervention, and perhaps the fans will get to listen to the race without hearing protection.

[Alburaq]

What are you talking about?

The theoretical rev band is 4,500rpm, and they will use all of it regardless of what armchair pundits have been postulating. Furthermore, you don't seem to understand how harmonics work. Each octave requires double frequency, thus, you notice a much bigger pitch swing between 1,000rpm and 2,000rpm than 17,000rpm and 18,000rpm.

The sound of the cars is down to the firing order and exhaust setup. An inline 4-cylinder motorcycle engine with 180-degree crank revving at 18,000rpm sounds almost identical to an F1 car, despite having 50% fewer cylinders.



Personally, I'm really happy the decibel levels will be reduced b/c it lessens the likelihood of regulatory intervention, and perhaps the fans will get to listen to the race without hearing protection.

+1

Now we've got turbocharged motorcycles engines

Yeah yeah... these 2014 engines are almost as powerful as the 90's V10 despite the consumption limitations and are more technologically advanced. They are F1 engines.

Edited by Alburaq, 23 June 2013 - 09:33.

[Rybo]

+1



Yeah yeah... these 2014 engines are almost as powerful as the 90's V10 despite the consumption limitations and are more technologically advanced. They are F1 engines.

Except they aren't. The engines themselves are only good for what 600hp? Its the ERS that gives the engines more punch, but not much more.

[Rubens Hakkamacher]

Do know what a turbocharger does?

The turbo is not going to overcome the fuel limit. It doesn't matter how much air you can pack in if the fuel flow is restricted.

[Topsu]

There will be a backlash for this when the mainstream fans hear the engines live. And Bernie is not too fond of these engines. What a waste, I hope we find oil from Mars and figure out how to stop climate change, then we could have V12 revving over 20k again

[dau]

Well at least we know what a final nail sounds like now

You mean an addition to the long list of final nails people talked about in the last 15 years or so?

[DS27]

Well, the MD may say "it;s just different, it's like asking whether you prefer Motorhead or AC/DC" but to be accurate he should have said Steps or Westlife instead of AC/DC

[handel]

I don't think it's the final nail in F1 to be honest. It'll probably be more popular than ever in '14. However I have had a sense for the last year or so that I HAVE to go and see a race this year to experience the noise. Just think, in a few months you'll never get the chance again to hear them in competitive action!

[Rubens Hakkamacher]

The theoretical rev band is 4,500rpm, and they will use all of it regardless of what armchair pundits have been postulating.

A car that idles at 5-6k that can go up to 18,000+k is going to sound more aggressive than one that idles at about the same and will only go up to 12,000k. Going to a higher note is always going to sound more thrilling than having to stop at a lower note (the "Freebird" rule).

Furthermore, you don't seem to understand how harmonics work. Each octave requires double frequency, thus, you notice a much bigger pitch swing between 1,000rpm and 2,000rpm than 17,000rpm and 18,000rpm.

It's not that simple. Rpm is not equivalent to the fundamental frequency at the exhaust - 10,000 rpm with a V6 is going to be lower than a V8.

The cars today hit the note D5 on the limit. 2005 V10 it was F-F#5. The Renault is making it to C5. The problem is that one presumes the 2014 spec engine is not likely to idle any lower than the V10/8s (about F4); if anything, maybe higher.

The "music" of it is this: the 2005 car, when revved, jumped about an octave. The V8's a major 6th; musically, that is a big difference. The Renault, perhaps a perfect 5th. Musically, those differences are substantial. If intervallic differences didn't matter, humans wouldn't listen to music, it doesn't matter that it's less than an octave.

The sound of the cars is down to the firing order and exhaust setup.

Kinda sorta. The number of pistons matters, stroke, cycles, intake, valve train, and displacement. The weight matters as well, because that governs how fast and the manner in which it ramps up, and the available torque.

Personally, I'm really happy the decibel levels will be reduced b/c it lessens the likelihood of regulatory intervention, and perhaps the fans will get to listen to the race without hearing protection.

I think the whole notion of doing something because of worry about a regulatory intervention is intellectually idiotic, and the notion of having to make a regulation to save dumb people from themselves is likewise idiotic. But that's another discussion....

[superden]

I think it sounds fine. I grew up watching Formula 1 in the 1980's and quite frankly, much prefer a lower note to the modern scream. I love a loud, brutal sounding engine as much as any other motorsport fan, but will this stop me watching Formula 1? No, because I'm not transfixed on one single aspect of the sport to the exclusion of all others. I have a passion for all branches of motorsport and remember well the fuss kicked up by some fans in the sportscar world when diesel engines were introduced. Is Le Mans any less entertaining, or any less a spectacle? No, not even remotely. If you want loud screaming engines, there are many other forms of motorsport out there that can meet your need. As much as I loved them, the days of V10 power are long gone and will, barring the FIA taking a blow to the head, never return. All racing series change over time. Adapt and survive, or let it go and move onto something else.

[carbonfibre]

Im only 28 years old but im just sad because 10 years ago we had such brutal engines that sounded so badass and produced so much HP...

Now everything is being dumbed down, less and less HP, less and less cylinders etc etc, what a great evolution F1 has made..

[ApexMouse]

With ERS, these engines will kick out more power than the V10's when they were introduced, for about half the fuel consumption. So yeah, I'd call that pretty impressive progress.

[carbonfibre]

When the V10 engines were introduced you are talking about early 90's.

And yes that might be impressive but you know what the problem is? You arent allowed to develop the engines! I just hate the fact that in recent years teams arent allowed to develop their engines. That is the whole point of F1 for me, trying to everytime get better and better, and right now it just isn't allowed.

And at the end of the V10 they were very close to 1000hp, i believe Honda actually raced a 1000HP V10 engine at Suzuka. So who knows what a V10 in 2014 would have done, and how much less fuel it would be using compared to 2005?

[ApexMouse]

And who would be making them? Cosworth, Judd?

[LarsB]

Everybody's talking about a 12k rev limit, but isn't this 15k?

[ApexMouse]

Yes, but no-one will go that high - Fuel flow limit etc

[quasi C]

Personally, I'm really happy the decibel levels will be reduced b/c it lessens the likelihood of regulatory intervention, and perhaps the fans will get to listen to the race without hearing protection.

The loudness of the cars is an integral part of the live experience. People need to be in awe of these things, that's why everyone has a kip during the GT cup support races. I hope they maintain a decent volume.
I will admit though, the day when Top Fuel dragsters use a hybrid engine with muffled exhausts due to noise regulations will be hilarious.

[Rybo]

Everybody's talking about a 12k rev limit, but isn't this 15k?

Yeah with the fuel flow limitations and the fuel tank limitations no one will get to the 15k limit

[noikeee]

I never gave two shits about the issue with the sound as whatever we hear on TV is going to be mega loud out live, and I never got to experience how badass (or not) it was in real life anyway......... but I will admit that little clip sounds a little disappointing. I prefer the GP2 engines to that lol. Sounds like the early GP3 which sounded like bees casually farting around.

[SR388]

Sounds fine to me.

[hsvone]

Jeez I hope you guys are right that the new V6 turbo will sound much better once mounted on a chassis. That Renault soundbite was very underwhelming.

However, if the new engine(s) sound anything like the '86 Renault, I'll be somewhat more satisfied. Enjoy the V8 screamers while you still can!

Edited by hsvone, 24 June 2013 - 01:15.

[noikeee]

Yeah the 80s turbos were more than fine which is why I wasn't remotely worried about sound, but that clip really is crap lol.

[Jon83]

There will be a backlash for this when the mainstream fans hear the engines live. And Bernie is not too fond of these engines. What a waste, I hope we find oil from Mars and figure out how to stop climate change, then we could have V12 revving over 20k again

It'll be too late by then.

Those of us who didn't like the idea of these quieter engines were shouted down on other threads previously. It'll be interesting to see the reaction of those same people next season if these engines don't sound good.

[darkkis]

It'll be too late by then.

Those of us who didn't like the idea of these quieter engines were shouted down on other threads previously. It'll be interesting to see the reaction of those same people next season if these engines don't sound good.

And who dictates if they sound good or not..? It's like arguing on what is good music.

[Rubens Hakkamacher]

And who dictates if they sound good or not..? It's like arguing on what is good music.

Not in this case. It is not music, there are definable aspects that are easily categorized.

1) they won't be as loud (can't be; more efficiency + less energy (600 hp) + a turbo).
2) they will not rev as high. Effectively at 12k not much higher than a current engine off throttle (10k)
3) one exhaust cannot sound as complex as two (or more)

It may sound "neat". But it's not going to sound impressive from a mile away, as the current (and moreso, the larger V10s).

I've heard the LMP Audis. They sound "neat", kinda, provided you're alert enough to know they're coming (because you don't hear them until after they go by). While interesting to see the speed and their acceleration off a corner, the sound is NOT exciting.

The Corvette C6's, on the other hand, let you know they're coming and have arrived. Very powerful.

But not an F1 car revving to 18k+ a mile away. That is/was a unique thing. Oh well.

[dav115]

How I long for ...

[Tuxy]

I understand some of the reasons for doing this (emissions, traceability to road cars for manufacturers), but I'm getting sick of these changes.

Very jaded F1 fan here. Just enforce a budget cap and let the teams race what they want.

[ApexMouse]

I understand some of the reasons for doing this (emissions, traceability to road cars for manufacturers), but I'm getting sick of these changes.

Very jaded F1 fan here. Just enforce a budget cap and let the teams race what they want.

You would trust this lot of bent shysters with a budget cap?

[MaxisOne]

You would trust this lot of bent shysters with a budget cap?

[V8 Fireworks]

10 seconds of audio and everyone is moaning. The recording sucked but it will sound better out in the open

Sounds almost exactly like an Indycar. Not unexpected.



Those used to excellence need to get used to averageness.

Somtimes you CAN'T have AC/DC, sometimes you have to have KISS instead.

That's how it will be, those who like 100% not 75%, need to get used to average in place of excellent. This time you (mr. or ms. fancy pants) can't have your Mercedes E63, you HAVE TO have a Toyota Camry instead.

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 26 June 2013 - 19:20.

[KiloWatt]

TopGear paid a visit to Brixworth. The article is mostly about the processes and not so much the engines. But they did get to see and listen to the new V6 and they seem pretty excited about it. Maybe the Renault just sounds a bit dull? I quoted the relevant part.

http://www.topgear.c...tain-2013-06-18

We're led into a room not unlike a recording studio, full of screens and knobs and buttons. Through a viewing window is the artist: 2014's V6, spinning away on a dyno. We're the first outsiders to see it. It's obviously more compact than a V8, but not by much. It's hard to tell, as it's festooned with tubes and extraction fans. A huge pipe blows air into the engine's snorkel intake, mimicking air speed, heat and humidity of any given circuit on any given day. Sometimes they run these bench tests 24/7 with up to three engines at once, while feeding energy from the dyno back into the building. The hot exhausts glimmer translucent orange like glow-worms.

It is, however, sealed away in its soundproof booth. So we're led to another room where I'm handed some headphones, through which is played the sound of the V6 during a full lap simulation of a nameless circuit. And if anyone was worried about it sounding dull or turbo-whooshy, allow me to reassure you now: it's emphatically still a Formula One car... albeit one with cleaner tones and a higher frequency than the current V8s, but still enough to make your eardrums flutter, especially when it yaps down through the new eight-speed gearbox

BTW, when is Ferrari going to allow someone to listen and look at their engine?

Edited by KiloWatt, 27 June 2013 - 09:52.

[Tuxy]

You would trust this lot of bent shysters with a budget cap?

You have a better suggestion?

[senna da silva]

You have a better suggestion?

How about a Resource Restriction Agreement?

[Tenmantaylor]

TopGear paid a visit to Brixworth. The article is mostly about the processes and not so much the engines. But they did get to see and listen to the new V6 and they seem pretty excited about it. Maybe the Renault just sounds a bit dull? I quoted the relevant part.

http://www.topgear.c...tain-2013-06-18



BTW, when is Ferrari going to allow someone to listen and look at their engine?

They mention it has a higher frequency than the V8. Now it may be his perception but I fail to see a car with a)less cyclinders and b)lower RPM can create a higher frequency noise? I was under the distinct impression the new turbo V6 engines would have an order of magnitude lower frequency than the higher revving NA V8s. Unless it's the turbo spinning that gives the effect?

[onewingedangel]

1 exhaust pipe versus 2?

[BoschKurve]

I understand some of the reasons for doing this (emissions, traceability to road cars for manufacturers), but I'm getting sick of these changes.

Very jaded F1 fan here. Just enforce a budget cap and let the teams race what they want.

There is absolutely no way to enforce a budget cap.

The suggestions proposed by some posters on how the FIA could do this are absolutely preposterous. One put forth, suggested the FIA hire an auditing firm to look at every team's finances. No mention of where this money would come from was given, nor was any suggestion made on how one is going to find out if a team like RBR or Ferrari do not setup some other venture to do all the work so it looks like they are sticking to the cap.

The budget cap is an idiotic notion that's been thrown about every so often for the last 20 years. It sounds good on paper, but it's not realistic.

Here is what it comes down to: the teams know the costs involved with F1. F1 has never been for the faint of heart, and can be potentially quite ruinous for any upstart operation that does not have secure financing. The cries of the costs being too much are a joke as it has never been unknown how expensive the whole thing can get. If the costs are too much, there are certainly other race series any current team can go operate in if they feel unwilling to pay the cost to play.

[SanDiegoGo]

There is absolutely no way to enforce a budget cap.

the FIA could enforce a budget cap in they had a mind too. but its a battle they dont want... yet.

[Clatter]

the FIA could enforce a budget cap in they had a mind too. but its a battle they dont want... yet.

They could try, but they would ultimately fail.

[BoschKurve]

the FIA could enforce a budget cap in they had a mind too. but its a battle they dont want... yet.

Even if they wanted to, they won't.

Ever hear of creative accounting?

Ferrari and Red Bull would put Enron to shame.

[mattferg]

After being at Silverstone last weekend, you can tell which cars roughly have the same engines by the sound, but the majority of them are defined more by their exhaust than their sound. So once the engines are in a car and have all the bodywork, THEN we can judge them. We really can't judge an engine by itself!

[BoschKurve]

The one thing I will say regarding the upcoming engine switch, is that F1 missed a huge opportunity.

They should have just mandated an allowable amount of fuel for the entire race weekend. They then could have let teams determine what kind of engine they wanted to use coupled with energy recovery systems. That would have been far more interesting to watch from an engineering standpoint than everyone running these 1.6L turbo engines. Sadly F1 seems content to becoming increasingly irrelevant on the engine front.

[Clatter]

The one thing I will say regarding the upcoming engine switch, is that F1 missed a huge opportunity.

They should have just mandated an allowable amount of fuel for the entire race weekend. They then could have let teams determine what kind of engine they wanted to use coupled with energy recovery systems. That would have been far more interesting to watch from an engineering standpoint than everyone running these 1.6L turbo engines. Sadly F1 seems content to becoming increasingly irrelevant on the engine front.

That would potentially have ended in more cars sitting in the garage during FP saving fuel for the race. It's enough of an issue with tyres without throwing fuel in as well.

[BoschKurve]

That would potentially have ended in more cars sitting in the garage during FP saving fuel for the race. It's enough of an issue with tyres without throwing fuel in as well.

I'm not sure that would happen more because that time on the track is quite valuable.

But regardless, I think there were better alternatives to be had regarding the change in engine formula.

[Clatter]

I'm not sure that would happen more because that time on the track is quite valuable.

But regardless, I think there were better alternatives to be had regarding the change in engine formula.

They spend a good amount of it sat in the garage anyway. If saving fuel would help them in the race then they would sacrifice FP time.

[BoschKurve]

They spend a good amount of it sat in the garage anyway. If saving fuel would help them in the race then they would sacrifice FP time.

Unless refueling is banned.

[Clatter]

Unless refueling is banned.

What?

Are you now suggesting that they fuel the cars up on friday and can't put anymore in after that?

[Sakae]

Even if they wanted to, they won't.

Ever hear of creative accounting?

Ferrari and Red Bull would put Enron to shame.

Now that's plainly cruel.

[BoschKurve]

What?

Are you now suggesting that they fuel the cars up on friday and can't put anymore in after that?

We currently have a refueling ban during the races.

That can be continued.

Edited by BoschKurve, 07 July 2013 - 09:40.

[Gyno]

QUOTE (Topsu @ Jun 23 2013, 18:37) *
There will be a backlash for this when the mainstream fans hear the engines live. And Bernie is not too fond of these engines. What a waste, I hope we find oil from Mars and figure out how to stop climate change, then we could have V12 revving over 20k again


2 things.

First.
There are oil fields with more oil in them then what the Humans have so far burnt up since we first discovered oil.
Look up Super deep wells in Russia where they pump oil up from deepts where there should be no oil and no matter where they drill they find oil.
There is no such thing as fossil fuels, If that was the case then we would have run out of oil Long time ago.



Second.
Global warming or now it's called Climate change because the averege temps has been falling for the last 15 years.
Doesn't matter what happens it's ALWAYS the humans fault.
They want your money, that's what it's all about and more and more people have realised that we have all been lied to.

There are many scientists that have come forward telling the truth about how they are funded.
If they support Climate change they get a huge bag of money.
If they dont they get told to **** off.