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Renault 2014 Engine


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#51 Wuzak

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 15:19

The advantage would come from blowing the diffuser.


Not sure there would be enough of an advantage, to be honest.

The turbo takes out a lot of teh energy from the exhausts, which is much less than the current V8s to start with. Then you have to split the flow (energy loss) and put in a number of bends and have a longer pipe (which all causes losses).



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#52 senna da silva

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 15:25

Not sure there would be enough of an advantage, to be honest.

The turbo takes out a lot of teh energy from the exhausts, which is much less than the current V8s to start with. Then you have to split the flow (energy loss) and put in a number of bends and have a longer pipe (which all causes losses).


I don't necessarily disagree, however blowing the edges of the diffuser as they do now is more efficient than attempting to redirect the gases to blow the diffuser as they will do.

#53 Wuzak

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 15:25

Andy, is the heat energy recovery going to be significant?


Yes very... Put it this way, it's a must have, if it fails you'll be out the race.


Look at it this way.

The MGU-K (the new name for KERS) can harvest 2MJ per lap. The enrgy store can hold 4MJ, and the MGU-K can deploy 4MJ per lap from the energy store. The transfer of power from the MGU-H to the MGU-K is unlimited.

If the MGU-H can harvest an average of 12.5kW over an 80s lap then it will put an extra 1MJ through the MGU-K.

If the MGU-H can harvest an average of 25kW that gives 2MJ.

#54 Wuzak

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 15:28

I don't necessarily disagree, however blowing the edges of the diffuser as they do now is more efficient than attempting to redirect the gases to blow the diffuser as they will do.


Better, and easier, to blow the underside of the rear wing?

Not sure, but I think the regs also specify a horizontal exit.

#55 V3TT3L

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 15:42

Now and then...
http://www.auto-moto...bo-7318992.html

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Edited by V3TT3L, 21 June 2013 - 15:44.


#56 lambylamby

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 15:44

Based on going to F1 Race at Nurburgring in '11 and hearing the engines so loud live, and hearing an audio clip of the said race, there is a gulf of difference. I would make judgement on the next F1 race I go to, because I think the sound is actually promising.

#57 senna da silva

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 16:01

Look at it this way.

The MGU-K (the new name for KERS) can harvest 2MJ per lap. The enrgy store can hold 4MJ, and the MGU-K can deploy 4MJ per lap from the energy store. The transfer of power from the MGU-H to the MGU-K is unlimited.

If the MGU-H can harvest an average of 12.5kW over an 80s lap then it will put an extra 1MJ through the MGU-K.

If the MGU-H can harvest an average of 25kW that gives 2MJ.


 ;)
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#58 maverick69

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 16:10

What about using high velocity/energy gasses from the wastegate for blowing the diffuser? After all, that is outside the remit of the exhaust constraints, and I think that boost is effectively unlimited.....

#59 olliek88

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 16:28

You need to consider that it might sounds slightly different when you will mount it up in the car, that has bodywork around it and exhaust is way longer than here probably.


:up:

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#60 senna da silva

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 16:42

What about using high velocity/energy gasses from the wastegate for blowing the diffuser? After all, that is outside the remit of the exhaust constraints, and I think that boost is effectively unlimited.....


Is it outside of the exhaust regs?

#61 ATM_Andy

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 16:55

Not sure there would be enough of an advantage, to be honest.

The turbo takes out a lot of teh energy from the exhausts, which is much less than the current V8s to start with. Then you have to split the flow (energy loss) and put in a number of bends and have a longer pipe (which all causes losses).


The turbo wouldn't make a heap of difference, I believe Audi ate blowing the arches on the -18 this weekend, and that's a oil burner!

#62 Timstr11

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 17:19

What about using high velocity/energy gasses from the wastegate for blowing the diffuser? After all, that is outside the remit of the exhaust constraints, and I think that boost is effectively unlimited.....

There are no wastegates. The whole point of this engine is to minimize waste.
Excess pressure will be used to charge the battery.

#63 LarsB

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 18:37

There are no wastegates. The whole point of this engine is to minimize waste.
Excess pressure will be used to charge the battery.


Yes there is; read the press kit on media.renault.com

#64 Meanstreak

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 19:05

Not really disappointed. I expected [current] IndyCar sound, so anything above that is a plus. Shame that possibly due secrecy reasons it is so short clip, with a long fadeout. Can we even be sure the gearshifts happen at correct rpms?

It seems like a lot people still expected the traditional F1 scream altough they know very well it is a turbo engine? That's just dumb. :wave:

Edited by Meanstreak, 21 June 2013 - 19:26.


#65 muramasa

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 19:33

Based on going to F1 Race at Nurburgring in '11 and hearing the engines so loud live, and hearing an audio clip of the said race, there is a gulf of difference. I would make judgement on the next F1 race I go to, because I think the sound is actually promising.

I think broadcasters need to work more on sound quality for motorsports overall. F1 engine sound on TV is still ok, but lower formulas and GTs etc sound just awful on TV. F3/GP3 is like a bee buzzing, GT cars are totally underwhelming, but any motorsport vehicle sound awesome live.
Many amateur clips on youtube sound better than on TV. :rolleyes:



#66 KiloWatt

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 19:40

I'm very suspicious that there was some post processing on that. Unless it was run in the open? Firstly, everyone at the mercedes test said it sounded fantastic, yet that clip doesnt really blow the mind. And Im sure the folks that listened to the merc arent all so out of touch to think that sound qualifies as nice.

Secondly, if one can infer so much from the engine sound, why would renault give their game away? Unless they're trying to demonstrate that they need an engine equalisation already? :p

#67 phoenix101

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 00:11

When does a driver lift to shift a modern F1 car?

The shift lift in the sound sample as well as its similarities to the old 1.5L Renault engine (identical, more like) make me believe that the paddock are just trolling the fans before they reveal the real engine note. Imo, Ferrari would never have signed off on this engine note.

#68 crbassassin

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 00:47

It sounds gay

#69 Wuzak

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 01:24

Yes there is; read the press kit on media.renault.com


The press kit available here mentions a wastegate in a couple of places, but not specifically in reference to its use in 2014. In fact it states that a turbocharger with a wastegate was used into investigate control and the effects on the combustion chamber in 2011:

We came up with a number of ideas to meet the required expectations. The way the turbocharger and the wastegate are used, for example, how we control the combustion events and engine mixes and the behaviour of a direct injection engine versus a port injected engine.

Once we had determined the basic principles, we moved to the design phase of the project. This was mid 2011, and stretched into the beginning of 2012.


Why not just use the MGU-H?

FEBRUARY 2013:
The MGU-H and MGU-K energy recovery systems are assembled and tested on the dynos alongside the V6 internal combustion engine. The technical regulations demand radically advanced and complex design solutions so the design and manufacture stage lasted considerably longer than the design phase for the thermal engine.


Also, in the definitions:

MGU-H
The MGU-H is connected to the turbocharger. Acting as a generator, it absorbs power from the turbine shaft to recover heat energy from the exhaust gases. The electrical energy can be either directed to the MGU-K or to the battery for storage for later use. The MGU-H is also used to control the speed of the turbocharger to match the air requirement of the engine (eg to slow it down in place of a wastegate or to accelerate it to compensate for turbo-lag.)


Edited by Wuzak, 22 June 2013 - 01:25.


#70 Shiroo

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 01:37

It sounds gay

Er, well I at least, learnt how gayness sounds then :)

#71 xku807

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 02:36

Current V8's have around 750 hp. If this little engine develops more than that, I can forget about the sound. Compact little monster - looks better than the Merc unit so far.

#72 BigCHrome

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 04:09

Meh


That's not what F1 cars currently sound like.

The turbo wouldn't make a heap of difference, I believe Audi ate blowing the arches on the -18 this weekend, and that's a oil burner!


True, but Toyota said that they've also looked into it, and they didn't think using exhaust gases was worth it.

Edited by BigCHrome, 22 June 2013 - 04:09.


#73 Rubens Hakkamacher

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 04:53

Pitch is much lower than expected. I knew with fewer revs (~12,000rpm working limit) and the fewer cylinders you'd get lower pitch but I expected the single exhaust exit to counteract most of it.


"Surprise".

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#74 HoldenRT

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 05:33

Even the current V8 engines when they rev to 20k rpm sound like vaccuum cleaners. In 2006, I already heard videos of those engines that sounded like this.

It will sound better than that.. but the low revs will sound the same.

I prefer higher rpm. Low rpm is too much like any other racing series. F1 has lost one of it's unique things that make it F1. That high pitched ZOOM as it drives by.

#75 olliek88

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 09:59

Even the current V8 engines when they rev to 20k rpm sound like vaccuum cleaners. In 2006, I already heard videos of those engines that sounded like this.

It will sound better than that.. but the low revs will sound the same.

I prefer higher rpm. Low rpm is too much like any other racing series. F1 has lost one of it's unique things that make it F1. That high pitched ZOOM as it drives by.


I'll hold judgement until i hear them in person but i do agree, Formula One engines should sound like they are shouting and swearing at you at the top of their voice, i hope some of this is still present with the new V6's, but i'm not too confident at the moment.

#76 quasi C

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 10:17

Quick question: are they allowed to freely develop these engines during the season or are they locked-in like the current rules?

As for the engine, yep, as expected, sounds like shit right now but will reserve full judgement until I hear one live.

Edited by quasi C, 22 June 2013 - 10:18.


#77 Kelateboy

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 10:33

Quick question: are they allowed to freely develop these engines during the season or are they locked-in like the current rules?

As for the engine, yep, as expected, sounds like shit right now but will reserve full judgement until I hear one live.

My understanding is that there will be unlimited freedom to make any changes to the engines in 2014. In 2015 - 2017, it will be a points-system, and the engine is to be homologated in 2018.

#78 ImAnEngineer

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 10:59

When does a driver lift to shift a modern F1 car?


They don't. F1 gearboxes use seamless shifting, and this will happen when they reach the limiter (18000, or more likely 17900 to avoid hitting the limit)

#79 Gorma

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 11:38

It will sound totally different in a car moving at 300km/h due to Doppler effect.

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#80 BoschKurve

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 11:47

If you want to hear the Renault EF15B turbo engine being revved for a comparison to the new one....



#81 BoschKurve

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 11:53

The turbos in the 80's were running circa 1200bhp.

These are half that.

This come across in the sound.


This is getting out of hand regarding how much power the 80s turbo units were outputting.

The high numbers attributed them really were from the 1986 season...and it was never in race trim, only the qualifying engines had that sort of power output. Race trim was in the range of 800-900HP, but that was also adjustable depending on whether or not fuel needed to be saved.

1400HP seems to be the max estimate any single F1 car was outputting, and that was the Benetton B186 with the BMW engine. Renault hit around 1200HP at the Osterreichring in qualifying.

Aside from reliability, there was no way to run that kind of power during a race because of the fuel consumption. There was not enough fuel onboard to feed an engine with that sort of power.

#82 Shiroo

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 12:20

This is getting out of hand regarding how much power the 80s turbo units were outputting.

The high numbers attributed them really were from the 1986 season...and it was never in race trim, only the qualifying engines had that sort of power output. Race trim was in the range of 800-900HP, but that was also adjustable depending on whether or not fuel needed to be saved.

1400HP seems to be the max estimate any single F1 car was outputting, and that was the Benetton B186 with the BMW engine. Renault hit around 1200HP at the Osterreichring in qualifying.

Aside from reliability, there was no way to run that kind of power during a race because of the fuel consumption. There was not enough fuel onboard to feed an engine with that sort of power.

This.

Racing with 1400HP engine.. that fuel consumption

#83 Mrluke

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 12:33

I really like turbo cars but this engine sounds plain disappointing. There is no aggression to it at all :/



#84 Shiroo

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 13:22

I really like turbo cars but this engine sounds plain disappointing. There is no aggression to it at all :/

just wait mate, wait till it will be mounted in the car with bodywork, longer exhaust. It will change the sound. At the moment it just sounds like an engine. I won't say bad/good sound till I will hear it in a car.

#85 saudoso

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 13:34

just wait mate, wait till it will be mounted in the car with bodywork, longer exhaust. It will change the sound. At the moment it just sounds like an engine. I won't say bad/good sound till I will hear it in a car.

Nope, that's pretty much it, that's where the exhaust ends.

#86 zapppa83

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 13:45

Sounds horrible :down:

#87 prty

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 14:02

For a long time now, there has been generic motorsport engine noise, and F1 noise. Hearing this, seems that it will not be the case anymore.

#88 MikeV1987

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 14:05

sounds ok, should sound a lot better once it's in a car.

Edited by MikeV1987, 22 June 2013 - 14:05.


#89 BenF12012

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 16:28


2013 and 2014 Renault F1 engines comparison

New 1.6-litre V6s makes with complicated energy recovery technologies?

see more - http://www.formula1o...f1-engines.html

Images also added there



#90 F.M.

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 16:55

Sounds about the same as current on-board engine sounds..

Since we have no idea about how the sound was recorded, no point in judging it.

#91 InSearchOfThe

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 17:11

Wait until you hear them bolted in a car and running before making a judgement.

:up:

#92 phoenix101

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 17:56

They don't. F1 gearboxes use seamless shifting, and this will happen when they reach the limiter (18000, or more likely 17900 to avoid hitting the limit)


I know. That's my point.

The description given by Renault says you can hear the turbo when the driver lifts. The drivers don't lift to shift any more so I don't see how this recording could be genuine.

#93 Rubens Hakkamacher

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 19:18

Even the current V8 engines when they rev to 20k rpm sound like vaccuum cleaners. In 2006, I already heard videos of those engines that sounded like this.


No.





#94 Rubens Hakkamacher

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 19:19

It will sound totally different in a car moving at 300km/h due to Doppler effect.


No.




#95 superdelphinus

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 19:27

Well at least we know what a final nail sounds like now

#96 Rubens Hakkamacher

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 19:30

I really like turbo cars but this engine sounds plain disappointing. There is no aggression to it at all :/


1) Smaller displacement. Even at the same RPM as a modern... I mean, current F1 engine, it can't be moving as much air through it.
2) Smaller/limited energy input - again, it *can't* be as loud on this basis alone.
3) If it's even more efficient than moder.. I mean, today's F1 engines, even if everything else was 1:1 it would have to be softer.
4) With a smaller RPM operating range, it *can't* have as great of a pitch swing, and in turn - less "emotional expression".
5) With a much lower redline, it *can't* sound more exotic than "other race car engines" that rev to similar rpms.
6) With a single exhaust, it *can't* have as complex harmonic overtones as a dual exhaust.
7) With the turbo in the way, it *can't* be as impressive - and with the turbo taking energy out of the exhaust, it *can't* be as loud.

This makes no sense. The future is electric, let's either have silent but 1,000 hp ultra-torquey cars, or have real, I/C engines that represent the power of the concept - V10's, 3 liters, ENTERTAINING sound.

I'm sure *some* will say "it doesn't matter", "it sounds the same"... whatever, I don't care, I can hear the difference, and yes, I *do* want to be astounded by a car from a mile away. Otherwise - why not stay at home? For that matter, turn the sound off completely?

/ oh wait, that's right, a lot of people *are* staying at home, and the voice over is SO FRAKKING LOUD the cars sound impotent in the background, so no wonder people don't cite the sound as a Big Deal... oh well, YMMV.






#97 Rubens Hakkamacher

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 19:31

For a long time now, there has been generic motorsport engine noise, and F1 noise. Hearing this, seems that it will not be the case anymore.



Exactly. F1 is F1 because of being special, not another Also Ran. FOM bozos.



#98 handel

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 19:44

Quite excited about the new regs and intrigued as to how they will change the sport. However this is worrying when you think about the overall speed of the cars and how much closer they are presumably going to get to GP2 :|

The current V8 is 95kg, 100kg if you add the weight of the MGU. This increases to 120kg when you include the ancillary parts, such as the radiators and other cooling devices. With the 2014 power unit, the V6 turbocharged engine will be a minimum of 145kg, plus 35kg for the battery. At 180kg, this is a 80% increase over the current units, plus a further 20kg for the ancillaries such as the intercooler and other radiators.


Edited by handel, 22 June 2013 - 19:44.


#99 2ms

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 19:47

The V10s will go down as the best sounding engines in car racing history. Now we've got turbocharged motorcycles engines. Next will be electric motors. That's fine. But it sure as takes the acoustic part of F1. Now the best sound, honestly, may be nascars.

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#100 Gorma

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 19:57

1) Smaller displacement. Even at the same RPM as a modern... I mean, current F1 engine, it can't be moving as much air through it.

Do know what a turbocharger does?