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How do you assess Mercedes's penalty?


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Poll: What do you think of the outcome? (391 member(s) have cast votes)

What do you think of the outcome?

  1. It is fair (158 votes [40.41%])

    Percentage of vote: 40.41%

  2. Their points should have been duducted (84 votes [21.48%])

    Percentage of vote: 21.48%

  3. They should have been banished from this year (34 votes [8.70%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.70%

  4. FIA should have let the rivals have a test session (73 votes [18.67%])

    Percentage of vote: 18.67%

  5. FIA should have imposed a deterrent fine (42 votes [10.74%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.74%

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#1 Forma1

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 13:35

Personally I am happy despite being a Ferrari-fan. I think Mercedes should have been give a huge fine and their points should have been deducted, but in that case Ros Brawn would have been voluntarily stepped down or he would have been sacked. I can't forget his commitment in his Ferrari era, so I am happy Mercedes could walk away with just a bit of a facer.

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#2 fed up

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 13:36

No option for "not fair"

#3 Timstr11

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 13:38

The poll is lacking the option: "No fair. Mercedes should have been acquitted of any wrongdoing''.

#4 LaoTze

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 13:46

The poll is lacking the option: "No fair. Mercedes should have been acquitted of any wrongdoing''.


But there is a rule saying that this years car or even last years car are not allowed to be used, during these kinds of test.

That was why Ferrari opted for the 2011 car. Otherwise of course they would want to use this years car.

How can you say that breaking the Rule(s) is not doing anything wrong?



#5 trogggy

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 13:47

But there is a rule saying that this years car or even last years car are not allowed to be used, during these kinds of test.

That was why Ferrari opted for the 2011 car. Otherwise of course they would want to use this years car.

How can you say that breaking the Rule(s) is not doing anything wrong?

There's a huge thread about the case in which that question has been asked and answered too many times.

#6 Barabas

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 13:52

Seems fair to me. Mercedes were obviously in the wrong but their intentions were not devious.
I had expected some WCC points docked or/and a fine but this is OK imo
Now clarify the do's and don't with respect to Pirelli testing and let's get on with it :)

Merc, Brawn better be on their best behaviour this (and next) year because FiA will be gunning for them.
Roll on Silverstone

#7 MikeV1987

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 13:56

Fair penalty, they were bending the rules but it came at a price.

#8 Diablobb81

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 13:58

What penalty?

#9 DarthWillie

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 13:59

a non punishment for Mercedes, they got away with threatening to leave the sport. Poor decision



#10 trogggy

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 14:00

Penalty set so low so as to discourage Merc and Pirelli from appealing. It was basically the penalty Merc said was acceptable to them, and fining Pirelli was only ever going to end up in a civil court.
The FIA come out of this as the biggest losers. Merc's reputation is intact, as is Pirellis. The FIA look incompetent.

Now the rules will have to change to let the tyre suppliers test sensibly.

Edited by trogggy, 21 June 2013 - 14:01.


#11 SpaMaster

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 14:16

Yeah, without the 'not fair' option, the other options don't get any perspective.

#12 SR388

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 14:23

Where is the not fair option? This isn't a very good poll without that.

#13 purplehaireddolphin

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 14:24

The person I feel sorry for in all this is Bird. He's lost the chance to show how good he could be in an F1 car.

Otherwise, it's a sensible solution to it all

#14 redreni

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 14:24

But there is a rule saying that this years car or even last years car are not allowed to be used, during these kinds of test.

That was why Ferrari opted for the 2011 car. Otherwise of course they would want to use this years car.

How can you say that breaking the Rule(s) is not doing anything wrong?


There's hundreds of pages of debate about that on this forum, but interestingly no consideration of it in the judgement.

I think it's a "let's just put this down as a misunderstanding and try to protect everybody's image as much as possible, including Merc's, Pirelli's and Charlie Whiting's, and let's share the blame equally" kind of judgement. As reflected in the ruling on costs. The sort of ruling you'd expect when Jean Todt rather than Max Mosley is steering the ship.

I wouldn't describe it as fair, and since we haven't seen the crucial documents to back up, or fail to back up, Mercedes interpretatin of Article 22.1 sporting regs, I for one don't know what a fair outcome would have been. I suspect Merc's interpretation that the test wouldn't fall under Article 22.1 was probably fair in the circumstances because of what Charlie and Bernard had told them, but that's an inference from the tribunal's failure to publish the emails or deal with the issue. So on that basis I think no punishment for Merc would have been fairer.

#15 st99

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 14:34

I would have voted for the option "Joke penalty"
If they didn't do anything wrong and all this was a misunderstanding between the FIA and Merc then don't penalise them and if they did, the penalty received is a joke, all teams would be happy to trade their YDT for a 3 day test with their race drivers :p

Edited by st99, 21 June 2013 - 14:36.


#16 TomNokoe

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 14:36

Banning them from the young drivers test is unfair because there are barely any parallels between the private test and the upcoming test. Seems like a very short sighted decision.

#17 alfa1

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 14:36


The option I wanted isnt there.

* FIA should be punished for having vague rules, incoherent procedures for rule sclarification and backstabbing unaccountable Charlie Whiting.


#18 Sakae

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 14:39

The poll is lacking the option: "No fair. Mercedes should have been acquitted of any wrongdoing''.

saves me typing

#19 Sakae

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 14:40

The option I wanted isnt there.

* FIA should be punished for having vague rules, incoherent procedures for rule sclarification and backstabbing unaccountable Charlie Whiting.

saves me typing

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#20 William Hunt

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 14:43

I don't find it fair. The result of it is that Sam Bird is severely punished. The FIA is clearly not helping young drivers to get more experience

#21 redreni

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 14:51

I don't find it fair. The result of it is that Sam Bird is severely punished. The FIA is clearly not helping young drivers to get more experience


Well, life's not fair, is it? Hard enough for the tribunal to be fair to all parties appearing before it, without having to worry about being fair to Sam Bird as well!

#22 Forma1

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 14:54

Yeah, without the 'not fair' option, the other options don't get any perspective.


There is a 'fair' option and all the others cover the 'not fair' options, maybe I could have added the 'others' option.

#23 Nemo1965

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 14:58


There should have been an option at this poll, where you can click and hear the sound of a balloon, losing air helplessly. 'Life is full of sound of fury, signifying nothing...'



#24 SpaMaster

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 14:59

The option I wanted isnt there.

* FIA should be punished for having vague rules, incoherent procedures for rule sclarification and backstabbing unaccountable Charlie Whiting.

I second this!

The above option in in the exact same words should be included and given the options to select multiple choices..

Fans would like to punish FIA. How do we do that? Normally heads would roll as a reflection. But FIA act in typical crooked bureaucratic way..

#25 SpaMaster

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 15:02

I don't find it fair. The result of it is that Sam Bird is severely punished. The FIA is clearly not helping young drivers to get more experience

Mercedes has only themselves to blame. The intention is not to be fair for everyone. The intention to hand out suitable punishment for the infringement. Besides, Sam Bird is not the only young driver. Young drivers of all the other 10 teams can test.

Mercedes can take a few Friday sessions from its race drivers and give it to Bird if they feel so bad about him.

#26 Longtimefan

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 15:02

Its diabolical. So they can do illegal tests with their main drivers who wear disguised helmets..

Pathetic.

The FIA are spineless and weak. I just hope all the other teams are now planning their own tests.

#27 ExFlagMan

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 15:11

Its diabolical. So they can do illegal tests with their main drivers who wear disguised helmets..

Pathetic.

The FIA are spineless and weak. I just hope all the other teams are now planning their own tests.

In that case the protests, FIA investigations and IT hearings should help keep the Autosport Forum going for a while :drunk:

#28 rijole1

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 15:16

Its diabolical. So they can do illegal tests with their main drivers who wear disguised helmets..

Pathetic.

The FIA are spineless and weak. I just hope all the other teams are now planning their own tests.

Exactly - this "penalty" is an OK sign to the other teams to do own tests

#29 Hezz

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 15:19

lol
These "fines" are ridiculous.
Replies in the poll too.
They should take away their points for Monaco at least.
Period.


#30 trogggy

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 15:19

Exactly - this "penalty" is an OK sign to the other teams to do own tests

It's the exact opposite.


#31 Dunder

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 15:20

Exactly - this "penalty" is an OK sign to the other teams to do own tests


No it isn't. Mercedes had plausible deniability which is why the penalty is so light.

That has been taken away from any other team wanting to use the same reasoning.


#32 Diablobb81

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 15:20

Exactly - this "penalty" is an OK sign to the other teams to do own tests


Sure. If they want to be promptly banned.

#33 MPea3

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 15:20

No, the penalty recognizes that Mercedes is valuable to F1 and the FIA, so the penalty can't be so oppressive or embarrassing that it drives another manufacturer out of the sport.

#34 Juan Kerr

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 15:21

Where's the 'There's nothing wrong with the test but the FIA want to be seen to be not favouring Mercedes whilst wallowing in political correctness' option?

#35 Atreiu

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 15:29

It is definitely much lighter than I expected.

To me it is strongly implied that Mercedes pulled a very strong bluff regarding their future participation in case of a harsh penalty and also that the FIA admits these rules are too poor, confusing and dubious even for their own standards.

#36 LuckyStrike1

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 15:34

Not fair and a joke for a penalty. They should have been banned for a GP or two, or been given a large fine.

FIA made a mess of this whole ... well mess.

At least I don't have to be dissapointed with some senior figures in Mercedes now because I didn't think too highly of them before this.

#37 MMandi

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 15:38

Exactly - this "penalty" is an OK sign to the other teams to do own tests


Not really, it's a sign of 'there was a hole but now that all eyes are on it you'll be incinerated if you try to slip through it'

#38 rijole1

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 15:39

It's the exact opposite.



Sure. If they want to be promptly banned.


I do not think FIA can punish other teams with more than this lame punishment they have given Mercedes.
(Because they do not want to see Mercedes leave F1)
If FIA gives more severe punishment to other teams, FIA:s authority,neutrality is going to be even more questioned than it is already today

The punishment FIA gave is a minor one.
I think information Mercedes got from this test is much more important, than the punishment they got is harmful
So why shouldn't the other teams do their own tests?

#39 redreni

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 15:41

There is a 'fair' option and all the others cover the 'not fair' options, maybe I could have added the 'others' option.


There are plenty of opinions on here not covered by your poll, including the one that reflects my view "not guilty - should have been no penalty". You may think that view is stupid, but I think if the purpose of your poll is to find out what people think you should consider putting in more options so more people can vote.

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#40 Freung

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 15:43

Exactly - this "penalty" is an OK sign to the other teams to do own tests


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: It is actually the opposite. !


#41 trogggy

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 15:44

I do not think FIA can punish other teams with more than this lame punishment they have given Mercedes.

Then you're wrong.
Have you read the judgement?

#42 MinT

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 15:50

weak punishment - they don't want to upset Merc too much do they.

using this punishment as a yardstick if Ferrari had been in the dock presumably McLaren would have received a years ban......

#43 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 15:52

No deterrent here. The rule book doesn't amount to much for a team with influence.

#44 Diablobb81

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 15:53

I do not think FIA can punish other teams with more than this lame punishment they have given Mercedes.
(Because they do not want to see Mercedes leave F1)
If FIA gives more severe punishment to other teams, FIA:s authority,neutrality is going to be even more questioned than it is already today

The punishment FIA gave is a minor one.
I think information Mercedes got from this test is much more important, than the punishment they got is harmful
So why shouldn't the other teams do their own tests?


Ignoring all politics, Merc was punished so lightly because the Tribunal believed they acted in good faith. After this verdict no other team can invoke good faith in relation to this subject. No good faith = no light punishment.

Edited by Diablobb81, 21 June 2013 - 15:53.


#45 Melbourne Park

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 15:53

No, the penalty recognizes that Mercedes is valuable to F1 and the FIA, so the penalty can't be so oppressive or embarrassing that it drives another manufacturer out of the sport.


:up:

Except for other manufacturers leaving. Previously - such as with the approval of the double diffuser - other manufacturers threatened that if it was approved, they would leave the sport. And they did too. So if another manufacture was very upset by this, then they could leave. I reckon Lotus would be annoyed by this ... and probably Renault. Who are I think fairly annoyed about the lack of privileges they get due to only supplying engines.

In defence of Mercedes, I don't think they started all this ... it was Pirelli I suspect. And Brawn was opportunistic and cunning, as always. This time he got his fingers singed but nothing serious got burned.

The worst thing about this was that Mercedes suggested their own penalty. Ron Dennis never got that opportunity. But then as you said, Mercedes is a very significant auto manufacturer, and there are not many of those in F1.

Edited by Melbourne Park, 21 June 2013 - 15:55.


#46 redreni

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 15:55

I do not think FIA can punish other teams with more than this lame punishment they have given Mercedes.
(Because they do not want to see Mercedes leave F1)
If FIA gives more severe punishment to other teams, FIA:s authority,neutrality is going to be even more questioned than it is already today

The punishment FIA gave is a minor one.
I think information Mercedes got from this test is much more important, than the punishment they got is harmful
So why shouldn't the other teams do their own tests?


Mercedes had a particular interpretation of Article 22.1, they had FIA endorsement of that, they had asked for permission to use the current car and were not told that it was illegal, and there was no precedent to tell them if the thing would be legal or not. Hence why the tribunal found they acted in good faith. Suppose Red Bull tests with a 2013 car this weekend without asking permission, or having asked permission and been told "no". Would their case be the same as Merc's? Not even close.

The FIA could refer it to the tribunal, who could say "you knew it was illegal because there's an International Tribunal judgement saying so, so you did it in bad faith (unlike Mercedes) so you are out of the championship." And rightly so.

Anyway, suppose Red Bull want to test, what tyres are they going to use? Is Pirelli going to provide them given they've just been reprimanded for the last "private" test they did? It's not going to happen so you might as well get over it. Brawn has found a way to wriggle out of it again, as he always does.

I can see why there's a sense of unfairness here, but if testing with a 2013 car is illegal the conversation should have been:
Mercedes: can we use our 2013 car for tyre testing?
Whiting: No it's against the sporting regulations.
Mercedes: Okay, it's the 2011 car or nothing, then. Thanks, Charlie.

Mercedes asked the question. They didn't put any words in Charlie's mouth. Blame the FIA. The FIA's own tribunal didn't award them any of their costs, and ordered them to pay an equal share of the tribunal's costs, which rather suggests they've cocked up here, don't you think?

#47 P123

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 15:57

Previously - such as with the approval of the double diffuser - other manufacturers threatened that if it was approved, they would leave the sport. And they did too. So if another manufacture was very upset by this, then they could leave. I reckon Lotus would be annoyed by this ... and probably Renault.


Nobody left because of the DD. And Lotus aren't a manufacturer entrant in the sport- they are just there as a brand name used by an investment fund in an attempt to attract sponsorship to their team.

#48 William Hunt

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 16:08

Young drivers of all the other 10 teams can test.

Mercedes can take a few Friday sessions from its race drivers and give it to Bird if they feel so bad about him.


The FIA is apparently planning to cancel the Young Driver Tests for 2014 and they have not accepted Pirelli & Force India's proposal to let a rookie test on Friday with an extra set of tyres, instead all race drivers can use that extra set of tyres on Friday. At one side you have people who are complaining that rookies need to get more test mileage, also from a safety aspect, at the other side you have the big teams and the FIA doing absolutely nothing to get more experience for rookie drivers. And Mercedes will never let Bird have Rosberg's or Hamilton's car on Friday because the one that drives a session less has a disadvantage for the rest of the weekend.

#49 sportingcp

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 16:09

51 people think this is a fair decision. Am I missing something or what? How can this be a fair decision? Even if we look at Mercedes defence it was like "Ferrari did this, the others did that" (even the admit that what they did is wrong), so the advantage they had after the test, which is pretty obvious judging by Monaco and Canada results is fair? Oh and the young driver is the one who is penalized. Fair penalty? This is more like worst penalty ever. And Mercedes was exactly the team that was struggling more with the tyres they do this test and people think they are innocent? C´mon.. But well it´s, has I said, the precedent is open.

Edited by sportingcp, 21 June 2013 - 16:11.


#50 redreni

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 16:19

51 people think this is a fair decision. Am I missing something or what? How can this be a fair decision? Even if we look at Mercedes defence it was like "Ferrari did this, the others did that" (even the admit that what they did is wrong), so the advantage they had after the test, which is pretty obvious judging by Monaco and Canada results is fair? Oh and the young driver is the one who is penalized. Fair penalty? This is more like worst penalty ever. And Mercedes was exactly the team that was struggling more with the tyres they do this test and people think they are innocent? C´mon.. But well it´s, has I said, the precedent is open.


But you‘ve ignored Mercedes‘ main and strongest point in their defence. You know, the one they opened their testimony with? Have you considered applying to sit on the FIA International Tribunal?