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How do you assess Mercedes's penalty?


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Poll: What do you think of the outcome? (391 member(s) have cast votes)

What do you think of the outcome?

  1. It is fair (158 votes [40.41%])

    Percentage of vote: 40.41%

  2. Their points should have been duducted (84 votes [21.48%])

    Percentage of vote: 21.48%

  3. They should have been banished from this year (34 votes [8.70%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.70%

  4. FIA should have let the rivals have a test session (73 votes [18.67%])

    Percentage of vote: 18.67%

  5. FIA should have imposed a deterrent fine (42 votes [10.74%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.74%

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#301 oetzi

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 00:51

If you want to have a discussion / debate / argument it's necessary to actually contribute an argument or answer a question posed.
Either way I'm off to bed.

Sleep well (I'm not actually saying this, so feel free to delete it) with your Ross doll (if I did say it, it was in good faith, I think he has one and likes it, but I could be wrong, that's entirely possible, and if he does god bless him, but I didn't say it anyway, Pirelli did) but you can't see me anyway cos I had a hat on (not my usual hat!), and trogggy's on my side anyway, the one true side of the sprt, so why would anyone cheat? I should think that would be obvious to everyone that I'm only testing out the interwebs :)

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#302 oetzi

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 00:55

Not exactly sure how one can be acting immoral when you phone up the governing body TWICE and ask permission, which is granted.

It wasn't you know.


#303 trogggy

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 01:06

Sleep well (I'm not actually saying this, so feel free to delete it) with your Ross doll (if I did say it, it was in good faith, I think he has one and likes it, but I could be wrong, that's entirely possible, and if he does god bless him, but I didn't say it anyway, Pirelli did) but you can't see me anyway cos I had a hat on (not my usual hat!), and trogggy's on my side anyway, the one true side of the sprt, so why would anyone cheat? I should think that would be obvious to everyone that I'm only testing out the interwebs :)

You seem to be confusing what I think with what I think the Independent Tribunal thought.
Which isn't overly surprising.

#304 Ricardo F1

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 01:15

It wasn't you know.

Harris said that Mercedes team principal Ross Brawn and team manager Ron Meadows did have permission from F1 race director Charlie Whiting and FIA lawyer Sebastien Bernard that it was allowed to run its 2013 car at the test.

Mercedes claims that its view that the test was being 'undertaken' by Pirelli and not Mercedes was backed in correspondence between Whiting and Bernard.

In an email on May 3 that Whiting wrote to Bernard, Harris quoted the F1 race director as saying: "In my view any such testing would not actually be undertaken by the competitors, it could be be argued that this was done by Pirelli. Would we be able to take this position?"

Bernard replied: "Indeed we could take this position...[it is] not an undertaking from the competitor."


But apparently Whiting and Bernard have absolutely zero say in the matter, something which probably should have been mentioned on the phone really shouldn't it.

Edited by Ricardo F1, 26 June 2013 - 01:17.


#305 dans79

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 01:56

No, you removed it because you were worried that your extremely immature post would get laughed at by others when you realised you have a lack of knowledge. However, let's get back on topic and not discuss such shortcomings.


No, I'm sure like the rest of us, he just wanted to shove a sock down your throat so you would stop talking. Since he couldn't do that, he posted what he did. However I think the mods here are overly liberal and he thought his post might have got him in trouble so he altered it.


Back on topic, It doesn't matter what you think, the IT has ruled and the issue is closed, move on with your life man.

#306 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 03:31

No, I'm sure like the rest of us, he just wanted to shove a sock down your throat so you would stop talking. Since he couldn't do that, he posted what he did. However I think the mods here are overly liberal and he thought his post might have got him in trouble so he altered it.


Back on topic, It doesn't matter what you think, the IT has ruled and the issue is closed, move on with your life man.



But really how to move ahead now that there is an illegal imbalance on track. The season's results are now skewed and the opportunity to correct with an adequate penalty has failed. The only hope now is that Mercedes does not end up winning the wdc or playing a role in who wins. Otherwise the championship will be tainted.

#307 dans79

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 04:14

But really how to move ahead now that there is an illegal imbalance on track. The season's results are now skewed and the opportunity to correct with an adequate penalty has failed. The only hope now is that Mercedes does not end up winning the wdc or playing a role in who wins. Otherwise the championship will be tainted.



people worry about this way to much, I think you would be hard pressed to pick a single season in the last 20 where someone didn't get an unfair advantage of one kind or another. Simply put the powers that be have ruled, it's time to move onto the next race, and the next bit of intrigue.

#308 Szoelloe

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 05:27

No, no. Just park the trucks down by the coast, wait a day or two, switch the cars into a Pirelli transporter, throw tar over the drivers' helmets so nobody knows it's them, turn round and go back to the track.

Move along, please. Nothing to see here.


Well, that's a cool story, and it still would not contradict what I have said? :lol:

#309 Sakae

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 05:34

ECCLESTONE: MERC PENALTY WAS PREDETERMINED - the story is not going away

#310 arttidesco

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 05:47

It was a fudge, why should a team that has been acknowledged to have acted in 'good faith' be punished for doing so ?

Not for the first time the FIA needs to get it's house in order pronto.

#311 Szoelloe

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 05:51

That's a blog, and there is nothing new there.

#312 Rinehart

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 08:15

Seems that even Mercedes were shocked by the leniency



http://www1.skysport...t-happiness-is-


What a load of rubbish!

The interviewer, in the room with Bernie, claims Toto was shocked when Bernie called him with the news. But Toto was not in the room, he was on the other end of the phone call that the interviewer was eves-dropping on. The interviewer is therefore free to describe Toto's reaction in anyway they like for the sake of the story.



#313 oetzi

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 08:35

But apparently Whiting and Bernard have absolutely zero say in the matter, something which probably should have been mentioned on the phone really shouldn't it.

Why? Mercedes know what their jobs are. They asked for an opinion, not permission. And that's what they got.

btw - would be interesting to know what the omission in the sentence from Bernard is, wouldn't it?

Edited by oetzi, 26 June 2013 - 08:35.


#314 oetzi

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 08:37

Well, that's a cool story, and it still would not contradict what I have said? :lol:

Um, it would, you know.

#315 oetzi

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 08:41

What a load of rubbish!

The interviewer, in the room with Bernie, claims Toto was shocked when Bernie called him with the news. But Toto was not in the room, he was on the other end of the phone call that the interviewer was eves-dropping on. The interviewer is therefore free to describe Toto's reaction in anyway they like for the sake of the story.

He says that Bernie told him Wolff was shocked.

#316 redreni

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 12:02

But really how to move ahead now that there is an illegal imbalance on track. The season's results are now skewed and the opportunity to correct with an adequate penalty has failed. The only hope now is that Mercedes does not end up winning the wdc or playing a role in who wins. Otherwise the championship will be tainted.


:lol:

#317 Peter Perfect

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 12:43

Brawn now complaining about other teams abusing the testing rules...

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/108291

It's ok Ross, I'm sure they're doing it with the best of intentions.

#318 Szoelloe

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 12:57

Brawn now complaining about other teams abusing the testing rules...

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/108291

It's ok Ross, I'm sure they're doing it with the best of intentions.


Heh? He is perfectly right. afetr the IT hearing it is quite obvious. The FIA has issued a statement right after the IT hearing that they are going to be kicking axx from now on. So far only Ferrari and Red Bull were moaning, not Merc.


#319 Ricardo F1

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 15:53

Why? Mercedes know what their jobs are. They asked for an opinion, not permission. And that's what they got.

Charlie Whiting is usually the designated contact for such decisions, he even went to the legal department to get their input. Charlie + FIA lawyer to ANYONE means an OK.


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#320 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 16:42

people worry about this way to much, I think you would be hard pressed to pick a single season in the last 20 where someone didn't get an unfair advantage of one kind or another. Simply put the powers that be have ruled, it's time to move onto the next race, and the next bit of intrigue.



Yes we should just be happy to watch the colourful cars drive around the track and not actually be concerned when one of them is singled out and given the keys to the podium. Not much intrigue in that.

#321 Ricardo F1

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 17:00

Yes we should just be happy to watch the colourful cars drive around the track and not actually be concerned when one of them is singled out and given the keys to the podium. Not much intrigue in that.

Hyperbole much? They keys to the podium?? Driving around in the same car they just finished a weekend GP using on foreign tyres. Damn what an unholy advantage.

Edited by Ricardo F1, 26 June 2013 - 17:01.


#322 dans79

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 17:08

Yes we should just be happy to watch the colourful cars drive around the track and not actually be concerned when one of them is singled out and given the keys to the podium. Not much intrigue in that.


Like I said wait a race or two, and someone else will do something unethical/questionable/against the rules.

#323 mattferg

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 17:51

No, I'm sure like the rest of us, he just wanted to shove a sock down your throat so you would stop talking. Since he couldn't do that, he posted what he did. However I think the mods here are overly liberal and he thought his post might have got him in trouble so he altered it.


Back on topic, It doesn't matter what you think, the IT has ruled and the issue is closed, move on with your life man.


No, he, like the rest of the Mercedes fans, wants us to shut up to hide the issue that their team cheated. We, the real fans of formula 1, will keep talking so that everyone remembers.

#324 BigCHrome

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 17:56

Penalty was too heavy considering everything that came up during the IT.

#325 MP422

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 17:57

No, he, like the rest of the Mercedes fans, wants us to shut up to hide the issue that their team cheated. We, the real fans of formula 1, will keep talking so that everyone remembers.


Case closed,... I understand you support redbull ? :rotfl:

#326 pUs

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 18:07

Hyperbole much? They keys to the podium?? Driving around in the same car they just finished a weekend GP using on foreign tyres. Damn what an unholy advantage.


Great post Ricardo, you really nailed that one. Agreed, not an advantage in any way! Quite the opposite in fact, it just costs a lot of money for a team like Mercedes to undertake this kind of testing just for the sake of Pirelli's development. Quite some charity going on there. The FIA should of course have paid for eveything. Let's hope they do so the next time around, and that this was just the first of many, many exclusive private test sessions for Lewis and Nico!

#327 Peter Perfect

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 18:07

Charlie Whiting is usually the designated contact for such decisions, he even went to the legal department to get their input. Charlie + FIA lawyer to ANYONE means an OK.

I think if we've learnt anything in the past ten years or so it's that Charlie's opinion is just that, an opinion. How many times have teams had something approved/agreed with him only for it all to turn to mush when it turns out he wasn't the final arbiter?

#328 1Devil1

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 18:12

Penalty was too heavy considering everything that came up during the IT.


Yeah Mercedes should have got three more test days - all the fault of the FIA :up:

#329 Fastcake

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 18:16

I think if we've learnt anything in the past ten years or so it's that Charlie's opinion is just that, an opinion. How many times have teams had something approved/agreed with him only for it all to turn to mush when it turns out he wasn't the final arbiter?


I can only think of a couple of occasions. It's easy to blame Charlie Whiting when we only hear about the incorrect fraction of things that he deals with.

#330 Peter Perfect

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 18:33

I can only think of a couple of occasions. It's easy to blame Charlie Whiting when we only hear about the incorrect fraction of things that he deals with.

My point wasn't whether Charlie was right or wrong, but that he doesn't necessarily have the final say in everything.

#331 Ricardo F1

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 18:37

I think if we've learnt anything in the past ten years or so it's that Charlie's opinion is just that, an opinion. How many times have teams had something approved/agreed with him only for it all to turn to mush when it turns out he wasn't the final arbiter?

Well yes, Spa 2008 for a starter . . . but then he did check with the FIA legal team.


#332 dans79

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 18:42

Case closed,... I understand you support redbull ? :rotfl:



Yea, it's very much a pot meet kettle scenario.

#333 undersquare

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 18:50

My point wasn't whether Charlie was right or wrong, but that he doesn't necessarily have the final say in everything.

Well it's up to Charlie not to exceed his authority isn't it? He is the teams' normal point of contact with FIA. And in this case he DID indeed refer the question quite properly up the chain and merely relay the answer.


#334 Peter Perfect

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 19:04

Well it's up to Charlie not to exceed his authority isn't it? He is the teams' normal point of contact with FIA. And in this case he DID indeed refer the question quite properly up the chain and merely relay the answer.

But what was the answer? I'd assumed from reports that it was phrased as opinion not a statement of truth.

#335 Fangiola

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 19:10

But what was the answer? I'd assumed from reports that it was phrased as opinion not a statement of truth.


I thought the IT said it could understand why Mercedes would have taken it as a go-ahead statement. I mean who else to better interpret the regulations than those from the legal department of the organisation that drafted these same rules.

#336 undersquare

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 19:11

But what was the answer? I'd assumed from reports that it was phrased as opinion not a statement of truth.

As I understand it the answer was that Brawn's proposed interpretation of the rule was viable - Mercedes would not be 'undertaking' the testing. Yes it was an opinion but afaik there's no permanent source of a final FIA decision, so the legal opinion was the best that Brawn could achieve by way of answer. Then the opinion can only be tested in a Tribunal hearing. The FIA being like Parliament and the Tribunal the judiciary.

#337 Longtimefan

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 19:17

Still feel the penalty was a joke.

I'm hoping a nice chunk of karma visits the W04 this weekend and deposits two lovely DNF's. (mechanical failures, I don't wish to see them crash or the drivers hurt)

Edited by Longtimefan, 26 June 2013 - 19:17.


#338 MMandi

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 19:31

Still feel the penalty was a joke.

I'm hoping a nice chunk of karma visits the W04 this weekend and deposits two lovely DNF's. (mechanical failures, I don't wish to see them crash or the drivers hurt)


Wishing ill on an entire team of people that sacrifice time with family etc just as every other team to do what they do just to satisfy your perceived mis-justice, cool.

#339 wrighty

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 20:03

Wishing ill on an entire team of people that sacrifice time with family etc just as every other team to do what they do just to satisfy your perceived mis-justice, cool.


i agree wholeheartedly.......in the end, this is (and don't all shout here)....JUST MOTOR RACING....this is not life, or health, or nations being overturned by warmongering despots. It is sport. People would do well to remember this.

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#340 Sakae

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 20:10

Hyperbole much? They keys to the podium?? Driving around in the same car they just finished a weekend GP using on foreign tyres. Damn what an unholy advantage.

Well maybe, but then you have Horner making a list - assuming little longer than yours - of potential benefits Mercedes might have derived of that test, and carrying it in his briefcase all the way to Paris, just in case anyone would be interested; so we heard.

#341 ExFlagMan

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 20:37

Well maybe, but then you have Horner making a list - assuming little longer than yours - of potential benefits Mercedes might have derived of that test, and carrying it in his briefcase all the way to Paris, just in case anyone would be interested; so we heard.

You mean the list of things RB would have done if he had been savvy enough to take up the Pirelli offer.

#342 mattferg

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 20:43

You mean the list of things RB would have done if he had been savvy enough to take up the Pirelli offer.


*stupid enough to cheat

#343 redreni

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 20:48

*stupid enough to cheat


Yet, according to you, Mercedes have benefited from cheating. So, however much you may disapprove of what they've done, you can't really say it was stupid, can you?

#344 BigCHrome

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 21:02

Great post Ricardo, you really nailed that one. Agreed, not an advantage in any way! Quite the opposite in fact, it just costs a lot of money for a team like Mercedes to undertake this kind of testing just for the sake of Pirelli's development. Quite some charity going on there. The FIA should of course have paid for eveything. Let's hope they do so the next time around, and that this was just the first of many, many exclusive private test sessions for Lewis and Nico!


Why the sarcasm? His post is absolutely accurate.

Well maybe, but then you have Horner making a list - assuming little longer than yours - of potential benefits Mercedes might have derived of that test, and carrying it in his briefcase all the way to Paris, just in case anyone would be interested; so we heard.


Horner's list is pointless, considering his position at a rival F1 team.

#345 ardbeg

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 21:06

Well it's up to Charlie not to exceed his authority isn't it? He is the teams' normal point of contact with FIA. And in this case he DID indeed refer the question quite properly up the chain and merely relay the answer.

But the answer, I as see it, was quite far away from being a simple "yes, you can do it". There were conditions attached. I thought this story would make me lose some respect for CW, but I have realized his role is a tricky one. I also think that the teams knows that what they get from Charlie is advice, clarifications, not permissions.


#346 dans79

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 21:13

*stupid enough to cheat


LOL, RBR and their fans has no room to talk about cheating, ANYONE who thinks otherwise is a complete moron.


#347 dans79

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 21:17

i agree wholeheartedly.......in the end, this is (and don't all shout here)....JUST MOTOR RACING....this is not life, or health, or nations being overturned by warmongering despots. It is sport. People would do well to remember this.


The problem is you have way to many fan boys, who live and die by the sport they follow (this isn't an F1 specific problem), because they live insignificant lives and they need to feel like they are part of something bigger than themselves.

#348 undersquare

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 21:21

But the answer, I as see it, was quite far away from being a simple "yes, you can do it". There were conditions attached. I thought this story would make me lose some respect for CW, but I have realized his role is a tricky one. I also think that the teams knows that what they get from Charlie is advice, clarifications, not permissions.

But who at the FIA can give permissions?


#349 undersquare

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 21:26

The problem is you have way to many fan boys, who live and die by the sport they follow (this isn't an F1 specific problem), because they live insignificant lives and they need to feel like they are part of something bigger than themselves.

There's also the problem of forum fandads, whose objective is to feel superior to their fellow members, because they live lives that fail to satisfy their unrealistic craving for status...

#350 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 21:34

But who at the FIA can give permissions?



The answer is no one. No one at the FIA would give permission for a team to violate the regs.

Mercedes knew what they were doing and made a stooge out of Whiting. Well played.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 26 June 2013 - 21:37.