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Red Bull and Ferrari to lead rebellion against FIA rules


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#1 F.M.

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 07:32

Formula One is facing what amounts to a rebellion as a result of the FIA's lack of decisive action against Mercedes after the team was found guilty of the tyre-testing affair, according to a report in the Times. Red Bull, it is claimed, are preparing to openly defy the FIA and its regulations.

Two teams - Red Bull and Ferrari - are understood to have made their displeasure known to Bernie Ecclestone.

Red Bull are considering an open challenge to the authority of the FIA by staging its own illegal test, exactly mirroring the actions of Mercedes, and are quite willing to risk a similar reprimand for doing so.

A Ferrari spokesman: "How can a reprimand be enough to punish a team that struggled at the Spanish Grand Prix, tested and then won in Monaco? No one knew about the test, yet the tribunal does not seem to have investigated why not and what exactly went on. No wonder the teams are angry. They have had enough of the FIA. The threats might be empty at the moment but the fact that these conversations are taking place shows that no one is happy with [Jean] Todt or the FIA. The crunch is coming and everyone wonders when and how. Maybe this is the time."


http://www.thetimes....icle3798516.ece

Edited by F.M., 24 June 2013 - 07:40.


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#2 P123

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 07:39

A couple of spoiled children. Why are they crying to Ecclestone?

#3 Szoelloe

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 07:40

Formula One is facing what amounts to a rebellion as a result of the FIA's lack of decisive action against Mercedes after the team was found guilty of the tyre-testing affair, according to a report in the Times. Red Bull, it is claimed, are preparing to openly defy the FIA and its regulations.

Two teams - Red Bull and Ferrari - are understood to have made their displeasure known to Bernie Ecclestone.

Red Bull are considering an open challenge to the authority of the FIA by staging its own illegal test, exactly mirroring the actions of Mercedes, and are quite willing to risk a similar reprimand for doing so.

A Ferrari spokesman: "How can a reprimand be enough to punish a team that struggled at the Spanish Grand Prix, tested and then won in Monaco? No one knew about the test, yet the tribunal does not seem to have investigated why not and what exactly went on. No wonder the teams are angry. They have had enough of the FIA. The threats might be empty at the moment but the fact that these conversations are taking place shows that no one is happy with [Jean] Todt or the FIA. The crunch is coming and everyone wonders when and how. Maybe this is the time."


Good on them. They could have done it without a rebellion, but they chose to protest instead, the donkeys. If they run a test without the exact same conditions -Pirelli runs the show, only 2014 development tyres, no data received - they can even keep their helmets on. If not, they will be badly punished.


#4 anachronox

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 07:40

Source?

#5 TomNokoe

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 07:41

I'm probably wrong but Mercedes merely took advantage of an ailing Pirelli situation, they didn't go out to make a mockery of the sport. If Red Bull and Ferrari do the same it will simply be a flagrant breach of the regulations. The circumstances are so different. Good luck to them, though.

#6 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 07:43

They should just announce a 3 day private test with the current car and race drivers then tell the FIA they will forgo the young driver test.

#7 jimbox01

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 07:53

Can't see Pirelli agreeing to it without express written consent from the FIA/WMC, so how are Red Bull and Ferrari going to do a tyre test if they haven't got any tyres?

If Pirelli (and the teams) did have permission from the FIA, then it's not an illegal test anyway.

#8 David1976

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 07:56

This is all a bit childish.

The amount of times Red Bull and Ferrari have got away with flying close to the line makes their protesting somewhat hypocritical.

#9 fed up

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 08:01

Can't see Pirelli agreeing to it without express written consent from the FIA/WMC, so how are Red Bull and Ferrari going to do a tyre test if they haven't got any tyres?

If Pirelli (and the teams) did have permission from the FIA, then it's not an illegal test anyway.


This.....

/ close thread

#10 Prancing Horse

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 08:01


Christian Horner is a very whiney man.

#11 seahawk

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 08:04

They should test and not even ask the FIA.That owuld be great, so they can beanned.

#12 ensign14

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 08:08

A Ferrari spokesman: "How can a reprimand be enough to punish a team that struggled at the Spanish Grand Prix, tested and then won in Monaco? No one knew about the test, yet the tribunal does not seem to have investigated why not and what exactly went on. No wonder the teams are angry. They have had enough of the FIA. The threats might be empty at the moment but the fact that these conversations are taking place shows that no one is happy with [Jean] Todt or the FIA. The crunch is coming and everyone wonders when and how. Maybe this is the time."

Pfft. They know nothing of the crunch.

#13 SenorSjon

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 08:23

This.....

/ close thread

Not really, Pirelli stated it is not bound by that set of rules as a supplier.

I would love to see how this pans out. It seems you can have a 1.000km private test if you skip the YDT. I even think Ferrari would allow RB to test at Mugello or Fiorano.;)

#14 redreni

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 08:24

:rotfl:

If they do this they are dumber than they look. Where are they going to get the tyres from? And how are they going to argue good faith before the tribunal when there is a tribunal decision, a precedent, which explicitly says you can‘t test with your current car?

I say to them: go on, do it! I dare you! A nice lengthy ban for them would open up the title race rather nicely.

However the reality is they won‘t do it. This is a bullshit story, placed in the Times as a way of harranging the FIA.

#15 trogggy

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 08:27

Red Bull, it is claimed, are preparing to openly defy the FIA and its regulations.

That would be wonderful to see on so many levels. Sadly even Christian Horner's dogs probably understand what a ridiculous idea it is, so it won't happen.
Anyone who thinks the result would be missing a young driver's test...I have no words.

#16 pRy

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 08:28

I wonder if Bernie might try to talk Max into running against Jean.

#17 Owen

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 08:31

same story running here
http://www.espn.co.u...ory/112205.html

#18 Massa

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 08:39

De la Rosa and Marc Géné at Fiorano everyday until the next GP :love:

#19 Szoelloe

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 08:40

De la Rosa and Marc Géné at Fiorano everyday until the next GP :love:


Yep. On demo tyres.


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#20 Andrew Hope

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 08:43

Dear Formula 1,

I am running out of shits to give.

#21 P123

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 08:44

They should just announce a 3 day private test with the current car and race drivers then tell the FIA they will forgo the young driver test.


Oh, so you think they'd trade a test where they are free to pursue what they wish with a blind tyre test on irrelevant tyres? :stoned:

#22 David Lightman

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 08:48

You're taking notice of an article written by Eason? He's part of the holy trinity of woeful F1 writers, the '-on' club. Eason, Buxton, Benson.

#23 Szoelloe

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 08:49

That is why Horner's protest was a fool's thing to do. They ShOULD run those tests for Pirelli. It is in everybody's best interest. In which case of course Mecedes will be participating in the YDT at silverstone, and the reprimand reversed to a thank you Mr. Brawn.

#24 Massa

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 08:49

Yep. On demo tyres.


No. Pirelli tyres, like Mercedes. Pirelli will be happy to test their tyres with a 2013 car.

#25 Szoelloe

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 08:49

No. Pirelli tyres, like Mercedes. Pirelli will be happy to test their tyres with a 2013 car.


see the post above yours


#26 Mercedestorque1

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 08:53

cry babies...nothing to see here :cool:

#27 Massa

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 08:57

That is why Horner's protest was a fool's thing to do. They ShOULD run those tests for Pirelli. It is in everybody's best interest. In which case of course Mecedes will be participating in the YDT at silverstone, and the reprimand reversed to a thank you Mr. Brawn.



The test was illegal. And Mercedes know it because they change the helmet of their drivers. Brawn is very smart, he knew exactly what they were doing.
They cheat so they deserve a penalty. But the sanction is very poor, it's mean it's better for a team to cheat and to be banned of Young Driver Test.

Edited by Massa, 24 June 2013 - 08:59.


#28 Szoelloe

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 09:02

The test was illegal. And Mercedes know it because they change the helmet of their drivers. Brawn is very smart, he know exactly what they were doing.
They cheat so they deserve a penalty. But the sanction is very poor, it's mean it's better for a team to cheat and to be banned of Young Driver Test.


Ok, so now decide: you want Ferrari testing for Pirelli or not?


#29 Massa_f1

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 09:05

I have to say I agree with them. All those moaning about Red Bull breaking rules. They have never been found guilty of anything. Yet Mercedes have, and get let off lightly. They should of been banned from running in the next 3 Grand Prix's practice sessions. to even up the time.

#30 pRy

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 09:06

The test was illegal. And Mercedes know it because they change the helmet of their drivers.


Not sure how did "Let's have the drivers wear black helmets, then we'll get away with it!" logic adds up. They were still driving the 2013 car complete with livery and all.

#31 bauss

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 09:08

I have to say I agree with them. All those moaning about Red Bull breaking rules. They have never been found guilty of anything. Yet Mercedes have, and get let off lightly. They should of been banned from running in the next 3 Grand Prix's practice sessions. to even up the time.



they've been found guilty many times, they just tell them to take it off ...hush hush...or change the tests/whatever ambiguity in the rules for next year/next race.... lighter to no punishments.

Horner is such a hypocritical whiney b***... he should go ahead and test.

He is not an idiot though and won't do it... there is really nothing to see here.

Edited by bauss, 24 June 2013 - 09:09.


#32 Wuzak

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 09:09

I say to them: go on, do it! I dare you! A nice lengthy ban for them would open up the title race rather nicely.


Why would they get a ban?

That is the point they're making - breaking the testing ban gets you a reprimand and exclusion from the young driver's test. That is the precident.


#33 F1ultimate

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 09:11

Christian Horner is a very whiney man.


And can you believe he is the man who has been awarded an MBE.

#34 trogggy

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 09:12

Why would they get a ban?

That is the point they're making - breaking the testing ban gets you a reprimand and exclusion from the young driver's test. That is the precident.

Great.
All they need to do then is get something from the FIA to say it's okay, and the punishment might just follow the precedent.
Oh and sit in front of a Tribunal who've been locked in a cupboard for the last couple of months, obviously.

It's really not hard.

Edited by trogggy, 24 June 2013 - 09:13.


#35 Massa

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 09:12

Ok, so now decide: you want Ferrari testing for Pirelli or not?


Why respect the rules when you can cheat and get away with it ? Ferrari have two tracks for them, Fiorano and the Mugello. They can use it. They can do like last year, invit all other teams ( bar Mercedes ) at Mugello for testing. The others teams would be happy, Pirelli too.

Edited by Massa, 24 June 2013 - 09:13.


#36 Barabas

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 09:13

You're taking notice of an article written by Eason? He's part of the holy trinity of woeful F1 writers, the '-on' club. Eason, Buxton, Benson.

This ^^^
Typical Eason story probably took a quote out of context and fabricated a non-story with it.
Unnamed spokesman, it is rumoured, it is understood :down:

Move along people nothing to see, there's no rebellion and there won't be a Red Bull or Ferrari test.
The Silverstone race can't come soon enough :rolleyes:

#37 F.M.

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 09:14

Also on Sky now http://www1.skysport...estgate-ruling-

#38 P123

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 09:17

Why would they get a ban?

That is the point they're making - breaking the testing ban gets you a reprimand and exclusion from the young driver's test. That is the precident.


Uhm yeah, it gets you a punishment. So what are Red Bull and Ferrari trying to argue? Part of the leniency, if you like, was that Mercedes 'acted in good faith'- they weren't the sole party to blame for the mess.

#39 Szoelloe

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 09:21

Why would they get a ban?

That is the point they're making - breaking the testing ban gets you a reprimand and exclusion from the young driver's test. That is the precident.


Oh, wow. Because they fouled up with the protests and pushing it till it was sent to the IT any possibility of doing it again. They practically conserved whatever Merecedes has got from that test, and quite unnecessarily. We also know that it does not in any way affect 2013. So if you would take the time to actually think about it, they should have pushed for a test of their own, no? For god's sake it was made possible by Mercedes, and then, Horner's petty instincts kick in, and messes it up. The FIA wanted it, Pirelli wanted it. Now that it's not possible thanks to Red Bull and Ferrari, they want ot do it? It's hilariously dumb.


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#40 lokiman

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 09:23

A couple of spoiled children. Why are they crying to Ecclestone?


Indeed. And absolute idiocy, if true. The whole basis of the reprimand meted out to Mercedes was that it was accepted that Mercedes had been acting in good faith because it had been advised by Charlie (who'd consulted the FIA's lawyers) that the test would be within the rules. It's now clear that such tests are not within the rules, neither Ferrari nor Red Bull can possibly claim to be acting in good faith.

#41 Hyatt

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 09:23

now please ban Reds & Bulls for bringing the sport into disrepute ...

#42 Barabas

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 09:28

same story running here
http://www.espn.co.u...ory/112205.html

Also on Sky now http://www1.skysport...estgate-ruling-

"According to The Times newspaper"

Both Sky and espn just parroting the Telegraph article :down:
sigh....

#43 bonjon1979a

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 09:28

now please ban Reds & Bulls for bringing the sport into disrepute ...


Exactly. The conditions aren't the same now as prior to the illegal Merc test. What they're suggesting would be akin to all the teams deciding to run hand operated suspension adjustment the race after they were banned on the Red Bull car.

#44 Massa

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 09:30

Indeed. And absolute idiocy, if true. The whole basis of the reprimand meted out to Mercedes was that it was accepted that Mercedes had been acting in good faith because it had been advised by Charlie (who'd consulted the FIA's lawyers) that the test would be within the rules. It's now clear that such tests are not within the rules, neither Ferrari nor Red Bull can possibly claim to be acting in good faith.



It was clear that it was not within the rules. I can't understand how the hell you can think that test with current car and current tyres in secret can be within the rules.

#45 Fourjays

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 09:31

This kind of spoiled child attitude is exactly what the FIA needs to crack down on. It is what is killing Formula One. The teams have way too much sway over how the sport is run, and it is never for the good of the sport but to give themselves a competitive advantage.

#46 alfa1

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 09:34

Red Bull are considering an open challenge to the authority of the FIA by staging its own illegal test,



Betcha a hundred internets it never happens.

Just one reason, just one, being that Pirelli wont wish to supply any tyres.



#47 bonjon1979a

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 09:34

It was clear that it was not within the rules. I can't understand how the hell you can think that test with current car and current tyres in secret can be within the rules.


Because the FIA, the governing body, the people who make the rules cleared them to do so. Not once but twice. It was 'private' not 'secret'. :kiss:

#48 Dunder

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 09:37

Exclusive photo of the recent private (some would say secret) meeting between Ferrari, Red Bull and Sauber TPs to discuss strategy in the wake of IT/Mercedes verdict.

Posted Image


In all seriousness, I give this story pretty much no credence.

#49 redreni

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 09:54

Exactly. The conditions aren't the same now as prior to the illegal Merc test. What they're suggesting would be akin to all the teams deciding to run hand operated suspension adjustment the race after they were banned on the Red Bull car.


I agree, but even that comparison is unfair on Mercedes, because there is no arguable interpretation of the rules according to which Red Bull's ride-height adjustor mechanism was legal. If it was capable of being adjusted by hand, which it was by Horner's own admission, then it was illegal whether they used it or not. So the scrutineers didn't ban it, it was already banned, they just asked Red Bull to take it off the car. And they failed to refer to the stewards the fact that Red Bull had competed in races with the illegal mechanism.

Mercedes were investigated by the FIA and the IT and found to have broken the rules although they acted in good faith. Red Bull were not investigated by anyone even though they definitely broke the rules, and we know that because Christian Horner went on the record and admitted as much. If somebody were to run a test mirroring the Pirelli/Mercedes Barcelona test, they would quite rightly have the book thrown at them because the thing has been investigated before and found illegal, so the stewards or tribunal would be forced to conclude that anybody doing it now, in the light of that ruling, had cheated on purpose. That includes Pirelli, who have already been reprimanded for this. But if somebody turns up to scrutineering at Silverstone with a ride-height adjustor mechanism exactly the same as what Red Bull had last year when they were told to take it off their car, it's hard to see how the scrutineers could do anything other than tell them to take it off their car. I expect they check for it in the pre-event checks these days, though, so there would be no point doing so as you'd have to change it before the race anyway.



#50 MichaelPM

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 09:55

What are the FIA going to do? Try to get the two main title contenders thrown out of the championship?
They have the FIA by the short and curlies. Even with demo tyres unlimited running would be an advantage, throw in the 2014 engine when that's ready and see if Brawn can still bite his lip. It's less illegal to do that so they would have to receive less of a "punishment" than Mercedes did.

Edited by MichaelPM, 24 June 2013 - 09:57.