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JPM: Why didn't it work out for him in F1?


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#1 ViMaMo

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 15:36

One guy who I can't help but feel frustrated that he isn't in F1 if not for his regrettable fitness and commitment is Juan Pablo Montoya. I don't know why JV evokes so much memories but JPM held so much promise, perhaps he was badly guided.

Did he quit F1 too early? F1 could have had a very exciting driver, superb qualifier, aggressive racer. I miss him in F1.

If he was committed and really dedicated himself, where could he have been? SV/FA/LH level or as good as someone like JB?

Edited by SophieB, 26 June 2013 - 07:19.
Edited title to reflect the opening post more fully


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#2 Diablobb81

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 15:37

I think he had the talent to be one of the best. Too bad about the rest of him.

#3 HaydenFan

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 15:43

It seemed like nobody wanted him when he lost his spark with McLaren. He didn't seem to want to be there, and F1 didn't want him. So for him leaving was in terms of continuing making money racing cars, leaving when he did was a good move.

Did he leave early? No. He looked off his form from 2001-2003. Kimi was the clear number one after the 2005 season, and wasn't going to be retained for 2007, so where would he have gone? The rumor I remember was Red Bull. But I don't see him doing any better than Webber those first couple of years, and would he have been okay doing what he is doing in NASCAR, trudging along mid pack in F1?

I never thought he would win a title. His driving style was his worst enemy. Made too many errors that he could never piece together enough good runs to challenge by the last few races.

#4 prty

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 15:51

Regrettable fitness? I don't remember him having problems in any race. Having some fat doesn't mean you are not strong...

#5 Jackmancer

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 15:52

JPM had his best years in the Schumi/Ferrari era. It was hard for any driver to break that. He might have won a championship in another time.

#6 HaydenFan

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 15:53

Regrettable fitness? I don't remember him having problems in any race. Having some fat doesn't mean you are not strong...


Adds some weight to the car, plus in modern day racing it shows a level of professionalism. Race drivers are a bit like models. You want them to have a six pack to go along with their ability to turn a car around a corner quicker than the average person.

#7 TheThirdTenor1

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 16:04

Adds some weight to the car, plus in modern day racing it shows a level of professionalism. Race drivers are a bit like models. You want them to have a six pack to go along with their ability to turn a car around a corner quicker than the average person.


lack of fitness can make you error prone (and we know Montoya was quite error prone).


#8 Boing 2

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 16:10

At his best he was electrifying, I haven't had a clear favourite since he left.

#9 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 16:15

I think Hamilton gives us everything Montoya did.

#10 aray

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 16:47

a great talent..quicker than the rest at his best...but always lacked 'brain'...still had it not for BMW's unreliability,he would have won 2003 WDC....

some of his overtakings were out of the world and still some of my favorites....particularly one in Canada where he overtook Ralf and Kimi in start-finish straight and another in Spa,where he took MS from outside....

Edited by aray, 25 June 2013 - 16:48.


#11 discover23

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 16:57

a great talent..quicker than the rest at his best...but always lacked 'brain'...still had it not for BMW's unreliability,he would have won 2003 WDC....

some of his overtakings were out of the world and still some of my favorites....particularly one in Canada where he overtook Ralf and Kimi in start-finish straight and another in Spa,where he took MS from outside....


Is the one in Canada where he made it three wide NASCAR style? I probably saw this only once or twice and never again, could never find the video on youtube.

#12 prty

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 16:58

Adds some weight to the car, plus in modern day racing it shows a level of professionalism. Race drivers are a bit like models. You want them to have a six pack to go along with their ability to turn a car around a corner quicker than the average person.


That's a whole different topic then. But I don't think he had any problems driving because of his fitness.
In my opinion he always was a bit of an idiot though.

lack of fitness can make you error prone (and we know Montoya was quite error prone).


Weird logic going on in there. You can say that lack of fitness cause mistakes, but you can't say his mistakes are the result of a lack of fitness, because there are a lot more reasons for making mistakes. Unless there is evidence, of course.

Edited by prty, 25 June 2013 - 17:00.


#13 senna da silva

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 17:04

He doesn't seem to have the fire in the belly anymore, just content to collect a paycheque.

#14 mattferg

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 17:30

Adds some weight to the car, plus in modern day racing it shows a level of professionalism. Race drivers are a bit like models. You want them to have a six pack to go along with their ability to turn a car around a corner quicker than the average person.


You know they have to add balast to the cars to actually make them meet the minimum weight to compete, so the argument that a heavier driver adds weight overall to a car is nonsense right? They just add less balast.

Edited by mattferg, 25 June 2013 - 17:30.


#15 HaydenFan

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 17:33

You know they have to add balast to the cars to actually make them meet the minimum weight to compete, so the argument that a heavier driver adds weight overall to a car is nonsense right? They just add less balast.


But less ballast means less weight they can move about the car to improve handling. Why is the average F1 driver only about 150 pounds? Why did Coulthard (and countless of unnamed drivers) develop eating disorders then?

But like someone pointed out, off topic.

He just didn't work out. Was he mentally there as a driver? Of course. But like also mentioned, he just one of the few who shined under the Schumacher shadow. Maybe we propped him up a bit due to that ability of his to shine on the off days of the Ferrari squad. Much like Coulthard in the 90's, or recently with the likes of Kovalainen or Kobayashi. He excelled against some truly talented competitors, but at the end of the day just did not work out for some reason or another.

Edited by HaydenFan, 25 June 2013 - 17:40.


#16 Myrvold

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 17:42

But less ballast means less weight they can move about the car to improve handling. Why is the average F1 driver only about 150 pounds? Why did Coulthard (and countless of unnamed drivers) develop eating disorders then?


Maybe because they drove in the 90's? I seem to remember there was talk about light drivers having an advantage, but that it had been taken away from them late in the 90's. I might be wrong though :)

#17 discover23

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 17:43

Webber should have quit a long time ago then since he is heavier than Montoya.

#18 Kingshark

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 17:47

Webber should have quit a long time ago then since he is heavier than Montoya.

But also much taller. Juan was chubby, Mark is just jacked.

With that being said, Montoya had one real chance of winning a championship - 2003, but that went away from him rather unfortunately.

#19 discover23

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 17:51

But also much taller. Juan was chubby, Mark is just jacked.


They were talking about total weight with the ballast and less ballast impacting the setup and handling.

Driver + car + ballast = total weight. chubby or jacked is irrelevant in this calculation.

I actually think JPM was fit and his errors had nothing to do with his physical condition.
He drove the same way in CART and F3000 and he was very skinny back then.

Edited by discover23, 25 June 2013 - 17:54.


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#20 CARTurbo

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 17:53

What actually happened with Juan is his family. Not to say it wasn't other things, I mean for one he absolutely despised having a shadow telling him what he could/couldn't eat for his fitness at every moment, but it was mainly family. He had Sebastian and his two girls and its hard to raise a family when you're constantly traveling around the world. Now Juan can race (staying in the US) and raise his family. He's always with Sebastian at kart tracks around here in Florida, and if he's happy with that, that's good.

Having said that, yeah, I miss him in F1 too. :cat:

#21 Craven Morehead

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 18:16

You know they have to add balast to the cars to actually make them meet the minimum weight to compete, so the argument that a heavier driver adds weight overall to a car is nonsense right? They just add less balast.


The ballast sits as low as physically possible in order to lower the centre of gravity. C of G is so important in this game that even the brake callipers are mounted on the bottoms of the rotors. Further, the ballast can be moved around the car to aid with weight distribution. Having a heavier driver in the car takes away this advantage & raises the C of G, making the entire package slower. This stuff is critical in a game that's measured to the thousandth of a second. It's no coincidence that Webber & Button are among the thinnest F1 drivers. They are among the tallest and need to do everything they can to minimize their personal weight disadvantage.

Two identical cars with different sized drivers may weigh the same amount on a stationary scale. But the one with the lower C of G has a clear advantage.

Edited by Craven Morehead, 25 June 2013 - 18:20.


#22 Goron3

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 18:33

You know they have to add balast to the cars to actually make them meet the minimum weight to compete, so the argument that a heavier driver adds weight overall to a car is nonsense right? They just add less balast.


But it means less balast goes to the right areas, hence why drivers have to be ridiculously lean. Kubica publically admitted he was struggling in early 2009 if I remember.

Ideally you want a driver that weighs the least so you can use as much balast as possible to make the car reach the minimum weight. Kind of makes you feel sorry for guys like Webber and Kubica but ah well. It makes you wonder whether we'll see anymore tall drivers enter the sport.

On topic though, JPM was a great driver, particularly in his Williams days. I remember someone from Williams years ago saying the 2003 title should have been the year one of their drivers won, and with a bit more luck JPM could have taken it.

Edited by Goron3, 25 June 2013 - 18:36.


#23 as65p

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 18:45

Regrettable fitness? I don't remember him having problems in any race. Having some fat doesn't mean you are not strong...


So very true. Especially with JPM, people go way too much by visual appearance. I can't recall a single occasion he looked really exhausted after a race, quite the opposite. And I remember a quite impressive sprint in fuel gear the year R. Schumacher crashed in Indy... :D

He sure never fit the modern looks of a fit guy. But that doesn't mean much. Anyone who has done any sort of of half-serious sport with friends should know how deceiving looks can be, in both directions.

#24 as65p

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 18:46

I think Hamilton gives us everything Montoya did.


I did like Montoya.

#25 Andrew Hope

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 18:51

I don't think he left F1 too early, because I don't pretend that drivers are racing cars to personally entertain me. JPM is still fun to watch, he's just in NASCAR now.

#26 OfficeLinebacker

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 18:57

He doesn't seem to have the fire in the belly anymore, just content to collect a paycheque.

I'm going to have to disagree there. At the most recent race, his team ran him out of gas on the last lap while running second. He cheated a bit (cut a corner) to coast the car across the finish line rather than retire, even though his finishing position would have been the exact same (last car on the lead lap, 33rd place I believe).

He was also irate with his team, saying they should have told him to save gas during the last laps, since he had a gap of about 6 secs to 3rd place (a gap of 6 secs in NASCAR is HUGE).

Two more things:

-He regularly threatens (to his team) to intentionally crash (the word in NASCAR is 'dump') other racers who he feels are being unfair to him on track. He definitely scraps out there.
-Sometimes he finds himself one or more laps down. At every restart, he always asks "who else is on our lap?" and races the hell out of them, whether it's for 30th place or whatever. I've actually seen some epic battles where he's fighting tooth and nail for some position in the 20s and two laps down. When he doesn't grab the spot, after the race he sighs and apologizes to his team "Sorry guys, I couldn't get him. I tried as hard as I could." And this is for P25 or what have you in a field of 43.

I'm not saying that he goes for it with the ferocity of someone who's younger, but he still cares. He's not doing it for a paycheck, he's doing it because he loves to race.

Also, frankly, I think he likes the cowboy mentality and the contact in NASCAR.

Edited by OfficeLinebacker, 25 June 2013 - 19:02.


#27 Zoe

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 19:15

I think Hamilton gives us everything Montoya did.


Nobody tried to break his f*ck!ng head (yet) :drunk:

Zoe

#28 P123

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 19:27

One guy who I can't help but feel frustrated that he isn't in F1 if not for his regrettable fitness and commitment is Juan Pablo Montoya. I don't know why JV evokes so much memories but JPM held so much promise, perhaps he was badly guided.

Did he quit F1 too early? F1 could have had a very exciting driver, superb qualifier, aggressive racer. I miss him in F1.

If he was committed and really dedicated himself, where could he have been? SV/FA/LH level or as good as someone like JB?


There was nothing wrong with JPM's fitness, although he did carry an extra few pounds which wasn't a great advert for his commitment. The criticism aimed at him was more to do with how he applied himself to car setup, relying just on talent rather than applying himself to find tenths from the car.

Did he quit at the right time? As a JPM fan I wasn't sorry to see him leave as the fire was gone in 2006, but I always hopped he would come back after a couple of years. The unfortunate fact is that the oversteery Bridgestone's and McLaren chassis of 2007 would have been perfect for his driving style.


#29 P123

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 19:33

So very true. Especially with JPM, people go way too much by visual appearance. I can't recall a single occasion he looked really exhausted after a race, quite the opposite. And I remember a quite impressive sprint in fuel gear the year R. Schumacher crashed in Indy... :D

He sure never fit the modern looks of a fit guy. But that doesn't mean much. Anyone who has done any sort of of half-serious sport with friends should know how deceiving looks can be, in both directions.


:up: I recall JPM winning the German GP of 2003 by some distance during what was severe European summer heatwave. After that race, the guy struggling to stand up straight on the podium wasn't JPM, but marathon man Trulli.

#30 senna da silva

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 19:44

I'm going to have to disagree there. At the most recent race, his team ran him out of gas on the last lap while running second. He cheated a bit (cut a corner) to coast the car across the finish line rather than retire, even though his finishing position would have been the exact same (last car on the lead lap, 33rd place I believe).

He was also irate with his team, saying they should have told him to save gas during the last laps, since he had a gap of about 6 secs to 3rd place (a gap of 6 secs in NASCAR is HUGE).

Two more things:

-He regularly threatens (to his team) to intentionally crash (the word in NASCAR is 'dump') other racers who he feels are being unfair to him on track. He definitely scraps out there.
-Sometimes he finds himself one or more laps down. At every restart, he always asks "who else is on our lap?" and races the hell out of them, whether it's for 30th place or whatever. I've actually seen some epic battles where he's fighting tooth and nail for some position in the 20s and two laps down. When he doesn't grab the spot, after the race he sighs and apologizes to his team "Sorry guys, I couldn't get him. I tried as hard as I could." And this is for P25 or what have you in a field of 43.

I'm not saying that he goes for it with the ferocity of someone who's younger, but he still cares. He's not doing it for a paycheck, he's doing it because he loves to race.

Also, frankly, I think he likes the cowboy mentality and the contact in NASCAR.


I watched the race and he was pretty sanguine about it in the post race interview, not the Montoya of 10 years ago. But that's to be expected especially once you settle down with a family. It wasn't really a criticism more of an observation, he's content to be midpack in NASCAR, I'm sure he'd rather be up front but he's content.

#31 David M. Kane

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 20:07

When you figure JPM out, let me know...

#32 jonpollak

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 20:11

Posted Image

Jp

#33 TheThirdTenor1

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 20:14

Weird logic going on in there. You can say that lack of fitness cause mistakes, but you can't say his mistakes are the result of a lack of fitness, because there are a lot more reasons for making mistakes. Unless there is evidence, of course.


i didn't say that.

#34 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 20:14

I watched the race and he was pretty sanguine about it in the post race interview, not the Montoya of 10 years ago. But that's to be expected especially once you settle down with a family. It wasn't really a criticism more of an observation, he's content to be midpack in NASCAR, I'm sure he'd rather be up front but he's content.


I don't think he's content at all. Understands that it's a deep field in a tough series, but content to be running where they are? Only in the past several races where they've been running at the sharp end.

#35 Vesuvius

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 20:20

There was nothing wrong with JPM's fitness, although he did carry an extra few pounds which wasn't a great advert for his commitment. The criticism aimed at him was more to do with how he applied himself to car setup, relying just on talent rather than applying himself to find tenths from the car.

Did he quit at the right time? As a JPM fan I wasn't sorry to see him leave as the fire was gone in 2006, but I always hopped he would come back after a couple of years. The unfortunate fact is that the oversteery Bridgestone's and McLaren chassis of 2007 would have been perfect for his driving style.


He didn't do well with super oversteery michelins and 2006 mclaren so don't think 2007 would have been any different. Anyway I do miss him very much but I hope and think he enjoys what he does now.

#36 MLC

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 20:23

JPM had talent but his F1 career always promised more than it delivered. At his best, he was amazing. But his best wasn't always on display. Though he was better than Ralf, he wasn't that much better. They were pretty equal and Ralf took more wins from their days at Williams. So my vote is that he wasn't destined to join the likes of current F1 leaders SV and FA.

#37 discover23

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 20:37

I watched the race and he was pretty sanguine about it in the post race interview, not the Montoya of 10 years ago. But that's to be expected especially once you settle down with a family. It wasn't really a criticism more of an observation, he's content to be midpack in NASCAR, I'm sure he'd rather be up front but he's content.

he was depressed more than anything..

#38 pingu666

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 21:25

its funny how he, and tony stewart did in hot races


#39 CSquared

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 21:33

The ballast sits as low as physically possible in order to lower the centre of gravity. C of G is so important in this game that even the brake callipers are mounted on the bottoms of the rotors.

I think most of the time they are not, unless this is a very recent development. Why, I don't know, but I suspect it has something to do with unsprung weight not effecting the C of G.

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#40 scheivlak

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 22:18

its funny how he, and tony stewart did in hot races

Just to think that they are part of the sprung weight :drunk:

#41 Deluxx

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 22:22

I don't think he left F1 too early, because I don't pretend that drivers are racing cars to personally entertain me. JPM is still fun to watch, he's just in NASCAR now.



When he doesn't grab the spot, after the race he sighs and apologizes to his team "Sorry guys, I couldn't get him. I'm hard" And this is for P25 or what have you in a field of 43.

I'm not saying that he goes for it with the ferocity of someone who's younger, but he still cares. He's not doing it for a paycheck, he's doing it because he loves to race.



Jp



These sum JPM's career pretty facking good right here. He still races 100% to his ability... and always has. Just because a driver doesn't have as many F1 Championships as Schumi doesn't mean he missed his prime. He's still in it.

#42 senna da silva

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 22:51

I don't think he's content at all. Understands that it's a deep field in a tough series, but content to be running where they are? Only in the past several races where they've been running at the sharp end.


When I say content, I mean he has it in perspective. I'm probably wrong its just the impression I get.

#43 dumm

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 23:22

:up: I recall JPM winning the German GP of 2003 by some distance during what was severe European summer heatwave. After that race, the guy struggling to stand up straight on the podium wasn't JPM, but marathon man Trulli.

Thats right but I can recall that Trulli had fever (or some cold) that day. :well:

#44 prty

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 23:25

i didn't say that.


Then I don't get what do you want to say when you say this:

lack of fitness can make you error prone (and we know Montoya was quite error prone).


What is your point then?

#45 Zippel

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 23:32

I think a lot of people forget how heated the criticism of Montoya was during 2006, only elevated to the next level after his collision in his last race.

As for going to Redbull, DC expressed that he was against it.

#46 discover23

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 23:46

Lol, DC hated jPM for taking his seat at mclaren and was afraid the same thing would happen at RedBull when those rumors started spreading in the paddock.


#47 holiday

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 23:52

Montoya was a man for memorable moments, not one for the duration of the time. If the championship were a woman she would have spend a night or two with him, but married someone else, someone more solid. I still like to watch his overtaking moves stored on my hard disc. At his best he was a man who you would think he could pull it off - and then, bang, he really did it. I believe his switch back to American racing made sense because he seems happier there.

#48 Craven Morehead

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 04:52

I think most of the time they are not, unless this is a very recent development. Why, I don't know, but I suspect it has something to do with unsprung weight not effecting the C of G.


In fact I saw a bit on the tele about how they are all doing exactly this. So I am going with it. :)

#49 SophieB

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 07:28

I've edited the title to more fully reflect the opening post which wonders why things didn't quite work out for JPM in F1. His current performances in NASCAR might give some insight there but please focus on ViMaMo's questions in the opening post rather than just discussing him generally, in the manner of a driver thread.

#50 aray

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 07:59

Is the one in Canada where he made it three wide NASCAR style? I probably saw this only once or twice and never again, could never find the video on youtube.



and on Scumi in Spa..