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JPM: Why didn't it work out for him in F1?


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#51 race addicted

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 08:06

Lol, DC hated jPM for taking his seat at mclaren and was afraid the same thing would happen at RedBull when those rumors started spreading in the paddock.


The talk was of pairing JPM with DC, not replacing DC.

Montoya had brilliant moments, but on the whole, he wasn't really quick enough, and that coupled with a so-so attitude, made him not last very long.
I remember him spinning out in his first Monaco GP, trying to take the exit of the swimming pool way too fast. Everyone knew it wasn't possible, but he had to try.
Then there was the story 0f '05, coming in at McLaren and expected to match Räikkönen. He was very rarely able to do that (remember Monza qualifying, where Räikkönen destroyed him carrying nine or ten laps more fuel?) and before that it was the tennis-accident.....

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#52 olliek88

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 08:52

Who won Monza in 2005?....

#53 ViMaMo

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 08:54

I think a lot of people forget how heated the criticism of Montoya was during 2006, only elevated to the next level after his collision in his last race.


Exactly. In fact the fitness issues came up when he under performed at Mclaren (burger is the word). I haven't dug up the thread, so I don't know exactly. But I do remember vaguely.

Second half of 2005 he was just brilliant. He was doing great the first half of 2006 too, matching Kimi easily in Q. From Silverstone onwards seems like he was an entirely different driver.

Edited by ViMaMo, 26 June 2013 - 09:14.


#54 race addicted

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 09:02

Who won Monza in 2005?....


I know Montoya won, but then I have to ask you; who had to make an unscheduled, extra pitstop?

#55 P123

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 09:04

Thats right but I can recall that Trulli had fever (or some cold) that day. :well:


Apologies to Trulli then. :D

#56 P123

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 09:16

Then there was the story 0f '05, coming in at McLaren and expected to match Räikkönen. He was very rarely able to do that (remember Monza qualifying, where Räikkönen destroyed him carrying nine or ten laps more fuel?) and before that it was the tennis-accident.....


He did sporadically match Raikkonen, but I don't think you can discount his injury, nor the fact that due to it he missed having any input into McLaren's first major upgrade of the 2005 season, after which the McLaren was transformed and Kimi was on his way. Monza is an interesting one- always a track at which JPM excelled, yet Kimi was visibly faster there in '05, using all the track plus kerbing in stark contrast to JPM who was staying away from the kerbs, especially through the exit of the first Lesmos. Struck me at the time of a driver lacking confidence in the car. He never drove his Williams like that.

Edited by P123, 26 June 2013 - 09:17.


#57 Radion

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 09:18

I know Montoya won, but then I have to ask you; who had to make an unscheduled, extra pitstop?

Plus, who had to go back ten places due to an engine failure?
But that's not the point. The point is beating someone like Montoya with that much more fuel onboard.


#58 barrykm

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 09:54

I miss him and still support him in Nascar, I enjoy his non-PC attitude. I still come in for enormous flak from my F1 enthusiast friends for doing so :lol:

#59 Konsta

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 10:01

JPM was something of an enigma. Superfast when all the stars were properly lined but oddly erratic more often than could reasonably be expected.



This goes to show why I don´t miss JPM at all - he was just a bit more than a Maldonado.

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#60 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 10:11

The last rumour on him was that Toro Rosso wanted him for the 2009 season.

#61 race addicted

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 10:24

JPM was something of an enigma. Superfast when all the stars were properly lined but oddly erratic more often than could reasonably be expected.



This goes to show why I don´t miss JPM at all - he was just a bit more than a Maldonado.


I vividly remember Head's reaction after that one. (...and then he did the same to Räikkönen in '06, and left after.)

#62 2ms

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 10:36

I don't think it was easy for him getting beaten by his teammate as he was at McL, and it probably didn't look like that would stop anytime soon since he was already approaching the big 30 when his teammate was much younger.

There's nothing wrong with Nascar. Although I think he thought he would be more successful there than he has been, I'm pretty sure he genuinely enjoys his life in Nascar a lot more than he would have enjoyed staying in F1.

To F1 fans like us, F1 is the best. But the majority of people in the world don't feel that way.

#63 DS27

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 10:46

Unfulfilled promise as far as I'm concerned - I rooted for him throughout F3000 and Indycar.

I did lose a bit of respect for him once he got to F1 though, as with the increased media coverage, I actually began finding him a bit of a jerk. A bit like what has happened for me with LH actually.

#64 Konsta

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 10:51

I vividly remember Head's reaction after that one. (...and then he did the same to Räikkönen in '06, and left after.)



I really wonder why neither Kimi, Ron or Norbert did not punch the moron. Even more perfect example of why I do not miss JPM at all.

#65 maverick69

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 11:03

The thing with Montoya that pissed me off the most is that he took Buttons place in the Williams - and ultimately, he never delivered in the end...... even to the point that he left for McLaren a few years later.

It would have been brilliant to have seen JB with a 2nd gen BMW lump behind his ears, in a chassis made by my favorite team.......*

* Bitter. I know.

Edited by maverick69, 26 June 2013 - 11:07.


#66 Henrytheeigth

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 11:07

I miss him, and didn't he run over a mechanics foot once? The lollipop man wanted to halt him with his foot yea? I remember he hit rubens in usgp 2003 and got a penalty and he was in the spare car that didnt have a proper fia sticker yea?

#67 race addicted

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 11:12

...as far as I remember that one, it was more a case of Barrichello hitting him....

#68 discover23

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 11:20

The story with Montoya at mclaren was somewhat similar with kimi at ferrari in 08 where they both underperformed. Montoya's relationship with the team after his tennis accident was conflicting and it never got any better.
Despite his lack of spark when driving the mclaren in 05, he did match Kimi is several races after the half point of the season, spa qualifying, canada, Hungary, brazil.

Montoya simply never fitted with Mclaren's culture and vice versa. Ultimately, the fact that no other top teams, at the time, were interested, combined with his strong family values and desire to go back to America were the two main reasons why he left F1.

He could have been a RB driver today perhaps, but that is a other story.


#69 discover23

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 11:27

...as far as I remember that one, it was more a case of Barrichello hitting him....

After the race Rubens said he was very surprised JPM got a penalty for that one.

#70 SophieB

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 11:28

Lol, DC hated jPM for taking his seat at mclaren and was afraid the same thing would happen at RedBull when those rumors started spreading in the paddock.


The talk was of pairing JPM with DC, not replacing DC.


For whatever the reason, DC really does come across like he disliked Montoya intensely. In his autobiography, he's often critical of people, for example Ron Dennis or Michael Schumacher but then he tries to consider their actions from the other person's point of view too. But not for JPM! Hecan't bring himself to say much more than bitter, angry sounding fat jokes. Even in the chapter he later wrote for the paperback edition to cover the 2007 season, he was still putting the boot in even after Montoya had left F1.

However, I think it's anyone's guess as to how much his views reveal about Montoya in F1 and how much it just reveals about DC himself.



#71 P123

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 11:50

For whatever the reason, DC really does come across like he disliked Montoya intensely. In his autobiography, he's often critical of people, for example Ron Dennis or Michael Schumacher but then he tries to consider their actions from the other person's point of view too. But not for JPM! Hecan't bring himself to say much more than bitter, angry sounding fat jokes. Even in the chapter he later wrote for the paperback edition to cover the 2007 season, he was still putting the boot in even after Montoya had left F1.

However, I think it's anyone's guess as to how much his views reveal about Montoya in F1 and how much it just reveals about DC himself.


It is a strange one with DC. It's not as if Montoya had any needle towards him. I do recall at Silverstone one year DC making a huge play about being held up in qualifying by Montoya, even stopping outside the McLaren pit to rev his engine, in a fit of boy racer road rage. Montoya received no penalty from the stewards- DC simply 'thought' Montoya was going to block him, as he explained to teh stewards, whereas JPM was well ahead and into the pitlane. It was a fairly public demonstration of the mental block DC had (and still has) when it came to JPM.

#72 thiscocks

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 11:59

One guy who I can't help but feel frustrated that he isn't in F1 if not for his regrettable fitness and commitment is Juan Pablo Montoya. I don't know why JV evokes so much memories but JPM held so much promise, perhaps he was badly guided.

Did he quit F1 too early? F1 could have had a very exciting driver, superb qualifier, aggressive racer. I miss him in F1.

If he was committed and really dedicated himself, where could he have been? SV/FA/LH level or as good as someone like JB?


We did have a very exciting, superb qualifier and aggressive racer. :confused: What makes you think he wasn't committed or dedicated?

I respect him for choosing a different racing series. He had had enough of the F1 way of life so left. Great driver with a no bullshit attitude in the vein of Alan Jones ect..and a driving style much like Nige. He kept the racing interesting during the Schumacher years.

Edited by thiscocks, 26 June 2013 - 12:06.


#73 race addicted

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 12:04

JPM and DC had a few coming-togethers in '01 and '02, and it was usually when JPM had lost out, but failed to realize he'd lost. That sometimes resulted in him taking them both out.
That pissed DC off, but I think he was really finished with him when Montoya crashed into him in Monaco '05, where DC was on for a sensational result, as he'd been fourth fastest in third free, but then had an uphill task as the updated car got ruined. Montoya blamed DC, which was outlandish.
Silverstone qualifying in '06, he signalled JPM was a wanker, and called him a monkey while interviewed on Silverstone TV, and that was all a bit unnecessary.

#74 P123

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 12:23

JPM and DC had a few coming-togethers in '01 and '02, and it was usually when JPM had lost out, but failed to realize he'd lost. That sometimes resulted in him taking them both out.
That pissed DC off, but I think he was really finished with him when Montoya crashed into him in Monaco '05, where DC was on for a sensational result, as he'd been fourth fastest in third free, but then had an uphill task as the updated car got ruined. Montoya blamed DC, which was outlandish.
Silverstone qualifying in '06, he signalled JPM was a wanker, and called him a monkey while interviewed on Silverstone TV, and that was all a bit unnecessary.


I only recall them ever having one coming together- when JPM spun and collected DC at the Nurburgring in 2002. JPM apologised for it, and DC acted like an ass in return. Monaco was when JPM slowed into Casino and held up Ralf, although I don't recall if DC was involved. DC did crash in the race, unrelated to Montoya.

#75 discover23

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 12:26

I actually think that DC tangled more with other drivers and had more racing incidents than Montoya ever did.

Edited by discover23, 26 June 2013 - 14:22.


#76 aray

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 12:31

JPM had the problem with handling/sensitivity of Mclaren 2005...a car that was heaven for Kimi..added with his tennis elbow injury made things difficult....but Macca backstabbed him too in Canada that year....things went downhill afterwards....

#77 PNSD

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 12:38

Bitter at first because he took JB's seat, but quickly realized it was the right decision.

JPM became, and still is one of my favourite all time drivers. Last few seasons in Nascar have been difficult, but so far this year it has been an improved form. Good to see he still wants it.

#78 race addicted

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 12:57

I only recall them ever having one coming together- when JPM spun and collected DC at the Nurburgring in 2002. JPM apologised for it, and DC acted like an ass in return. Monaco was when JPM slowed into Casino and held up Ralf, although I don't recall if DC was involved. DC did crash in the race, unrelated to Montoya.


Yeah, that one, but there was a couple more incidents, not necessarily crashes.
DC got caught up in that brake-test from JPM, yes. In the race, DC didn't crash, he got crashed into.;)

Edited by race addicted, 26 June 2013 - 12:57.


#79 HPT

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 13:50

Is the one in Canada where he made it three wide NASCAR style? I probably saw this only once or twice and never again, could never find the video on youtube.




He completed the move at the first corner. To be fair, Kimi and Ralf got all out of shape at the chicane from racing each other which gave JPM the traction he needed coming out of the last corner. But still, it was opportunistic and it looked pretty spectacular.

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#80 inca_roads

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 14:06

His move on Trulli in to the first chicane in Imola 01 was marvellous.

And his first two laps in the wet in Brazil 03 was one of the best (brief) displays of driving I've seen.

#81 ViMaMo

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 14:47

We did have a very exciting, superb qualifier and aggressive racer. :confused: What makes you think he wasn't committed or dedicated?

I respect him for choosing a different racing series. He had had enough of the F1 way of life so left. Great driver with a no bullshit attitude in the vein of Alan Jones ect..and a driving style much like Nige. He kept the racing interesting during the Schumacher years.


Its okay that he left but he spent just 5 years in F1, which is almost nothing. Besides he had room to improve with his temperament which could have helped him secure another seat, which he didn't. He was one of the better drivers who failed to peak.

#82 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 14:53

Unless you are willing to live, eat and breathe F1 then you will not succeed as a driver. All F1 drivers are drivers with a high level of talent, if you come in and think that your talent can carry you, then you will find that your career will be underwhelming. Juan Pablo Montoya did not seem willing to apply himself as hard as needed, which is why his career in many ways can be seen as a disappointment. Going to NASCAR and ding close to nothing over 6 years, and now being talked about as a possible drop by his team for next season only add to the feeling of

"what could have been if you wanted to".

It did not work out, since he was not willing to work hard enough. He is not the first and will surely not be the last talented driver, who will fall prey to his own attitude towards racing in F1.

:cool:

#83 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 15:13

Thing is, JPM drove for front running teams and pretty much in winning cars his entire F1 career. He probably could have gone a lot longer had he stepped down a team. Toyota, Red Bull, BMW Sauber, etc, et al; probably would have been interested in him.

#84 discover23

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 15:16

I know Honda was after Fry's comments about Montoya's departure in 06.
http://www.formula1l...ick-fry/page/2/

Edited by discover23, 26 June 2013 - 15:20.


#85 DS27

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 15:21

Unless you are willing to live, eat and breathe F1 then you will not succeed as a driver. All F1 drivers are drivers with a high level of talent, if you come in and think that your talent can carry you, then you will find that your career will be underwhelming. Juan Pablo Montoya did not seem willing to apply himself as hard as needed, which is why his career in many ways can be seen as a disappointment. Going to NASCAR and ding close to nothing over 6 years, and now being talked about as a possible drop by his team for next season only add to the feeling of

"what could have been if you wanted to".

It did not work out, since he was not willing to work hard enough. He is not the first and will surely not be the last talented driver, who will fall prey to his own attitude towards racing in F1.

:cool:


This post makes me think also of Jan Magnusson

#86 SpeedRacer`

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 15:24

It seemed like nobody wanted him when he lost his spark with McLaren. He didn't seem to want to be there, and F1 didn't want him. So for him leaving was in terms of continuing making money racing cars, leaving when he did was a good move.

Did he leave early? No. He looked off his form from 2001-2003. Kimi was the clear number one after the 2005 season, and wasn't going to be retained for 2007, so where would he have gone? The rumor I remember was Red Bull. But I don't see him doing any better than Webber those first couple of years, and would he have been okay doing what he is doing in NASCAR, trudging along mid pack in F1?

I never thought he would win a title. His driving style was his worst enemy. Made too many errors that he could never piece together enough good runs to challenge by the last few races.

Actually I think he would've been retained for 2007 but told the media he was interested in doing NASCAR, Ron threw his toys out of the pram and that was it.

Big mistake moving to McLaren with Ron still there.

#87 sheepgobba

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 15:47

Actually I think he would've been retained for 2007 but told the media he was interested in doing NASCAR, Ron threw his toys out of the pram and that was it.

Big mistake moving to McLaren with Ron still there.


Yeah, Dennis is just a massive cock...



#88 pingu666

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 15:47

i think he fell out of love with f1, and didnt really fit at macca, he was rarely the driver he was previously.

#89 Jovanotti

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 16:04

I think the comments about Montoya not being the driver "he was before" at McLaren don't do him justice. He used to have his regular cock-up there, but it's not like he was clean and faultless at Williams. Imo he just got shown up by Räikkönen performance wise, who especially during the McLaren years was head and shoulders above the level Juan had to deal with against Ralf. The fact that Montoya actually was quite close on many occasions proves that he performed just as good as before, but I suppose his 'tennis accident', occasionally being unable to bring solid results home and lastly the crash with his own teammate were just too much for his relationship with the team. As long as he was in F1, he was a very quick driver, and I don't blame him for being put off from F1 by Dennis in the end.

Edited by Jovanotti, 26 June 2013 - 16:05.


#90 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 16:18

This post makes me think also of Jan Magnusson


Jan is the driver thinking that talent alone can cut it in F1 personified.

:cool:

#91 discover23

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 16:30

I think the comments about Montoya not being the driver "he was before" at McLaren don't do him justice. He used to have his regular cock-up there, but it's not like he was clean and faultless at Williams. Imo he just got shown up by Räikkönen performance wise, who especially during the McLaren years was head and shoulders above the level Juan had to deal with against Ralf. The fact that Montoya actually was quite close on many occasions proves that he performed just as good as before, but I suppose his 'tennis accident', occasionally being unable to bring solid results home and lastly the crash with his own teammate were just too much for his relationship with the team. As long as he was in F1, he was a very quick driver, and I don't blame him for being put off from F1 by Dennis in the end.

You are Kimi fan so I am not surprised from your comments but if you considered what happened to Kimi and Massa at Ferrari, you would probably understand that perhaps JPM did not excel at Mclaren because reason x,y & z. It is also very obvious to everyone that the 2005 Mclaren fitted Kimi like a glove while JPM was always complaining with the handling despite the team trying to work out these issues.
I have no doubt that Kimi was a better driver than Massa, even during their time together at ferrari, mostly because I looked at his career as a whole, but those years made me realize that he was also a driver vulnerable to adaptation and getting used to new machinery and this reflected on his performance.

Yes, JPM also made mistakes at mclaren, but I don't think this is what people here are referring to when they say he was a different driver in macca. Most are referring to his spark, passion and motivation for racing.. You could see that some of that had been lost after Canada 2005.. Unfortunately, he could not handle this unfriendly environment , he was not very strong mentally and lost motivation when the team and Ron started to turn against him.



#92 redreni

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 16:31

It didn't work out for him in the sense that he chose to leave. He didn't have to; he was good enough that he could have continued in F1 if he'd wanted.

Other than that I think his F1 career worked out okay, inasmuch as his results reflected his level of ability. But a lot of people were disappointed by his results because they seemed to think he was much better than he actually was for reasons which escaped me at the time and still escape me.

He was much of a muchness compared to Ralf; Ralf was often ahead of him especially when the car was good enough to win, hence why Ralf won more races when they were together. And like Ralf, he was the sort of driver who could perhaps have won a title given the right car and a weaker team-mate, but unfortunately when he was at Williams, Ferrari dominated, and when he was at Mclaren, Ferrari and Renault were quicker. And it didn't help that, although Mclaren presumably signed him to lead the team, he was often slower than Kimi. So he was too good to be DC to Kimi's Mika, and he wasn't good enough to lead the team. He was also slightly lazy, which infuriated Ron Dennis. Add all those factors together and exit JPM from Woking. He could have easily signed for BAR or BMW or something, which would have been fine, but for his own reasons he didn't want to.

#93 FerrariV12

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 16:36

Funny enough I'd been thinking similar thoughts the past few weeks, watching some races from the 2001-2003 period. After Mansell and Hill had retired, JPM was the first driver I really took to for reasons beyond shared nationality.

If midway through 2001, you said out of Montoya and Button (my two favourite drivers through that first half of the decade), one would be world champion before the decade was through, and one would be long gone from F1 amid talk of questionable attitude and commitment (whether justified or not), I reckon most people, including myself, would have gotten the answer wrong.

I can't really get excited or interested by NASCAR (I'll stop there before I go on a tangent), so I find it sad I can't really appreciate his career since leaving F1, but if he's happy there then fair play to him.


#94 discover23

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 16:50

He was much of a muchness compared to Ralf; Ralf was often ahead of him especially when the car was good enough to win, hence why Ralf won more races when they were together.


In 01 it took Montoya some time to adapt to the F1 cars but after mid-point he already had Ralf covered. In Germany a race that Ralf won, Montoya was far into the distance and Ralf was not even close (Tortoise beats hare). After a 10 second lead JPMs had a fuel problem during the first pit-stop and then his engine failed. In Brazil, JoV takes Montoya out from a sure victory... JPM was rookie of the year against Kimi and Alonso.

In 02, no one came close to Ferrari but Montoya, that race Ralf won in Malaysia was because Shumi took Montoya out at the start of the race from the front row.

In 03. there was a fight going on in the garage during the european races, Montoya threaten to quit the team because Williams was only focusing on Ralf. Do you remember Monaco that year or Silverstone (his charge through the field). More often than not, JPM would always pass Ralf on track and finish ahead.

In 04, I don't think Ralf was even close ..

Edited by discover23, 26 June 2013 - 17:03.


#95 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 16:58

I think you only appreciate how far this forum has come when you see arguments from 10 years ago.

#96 Jovanotti

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 17:02

You are Kimi fan so I am not surprised from your comments but if you considered what happened to Kimi and Massa at Ferrari, you would probably understand that perhaps JPM did not excel at Mclaren because reason x,y & z. It is also very obvious to everyone that the 2005 Mclaren fitted Kimi like a glove while JPM was always complaining with the handling despite the team trying to work out these issues.
I have no doubt that Kimi was a better driver than Massa, even during their time together at ferrari, mostly because I looked at his career as a whole, but those years made me realize that he was also a driver vulnerable to adaptation and getting used to new machinery and this reflected on his performance.

Yes, JPM also made mistakes at mclaren, but I don't think this is what people here are referring to when they say he was a different driver in macca. Most are referring to his spark, passion and motivation for racing.. You could see that some of that had been lost after Canada 2005.. Unfortunately, he could not handle this unfriendly environment , he was not very strong mentally and lost motivation when the team and Ron started to turn against him.

(I don't want to bring 2008 to this discussion, but I agree, even as a fan I've always maintained that sensibility towards car behaviour can be a weakness of Räikkönen, and his Ferrari stint certainly showed how the relationship with the team can affect your performance).

Actually, I was speaking in favour of Montoya when I said I thought he was still performing really well when considering that he changed teams and wasn't always feeling at ease within the team and the car. Regardless, having a teammate who is a notch above the previous benchmark must be taken into consideration when assessing his achievements.
Long story short, F1 didn't work out for him not because of his performance (which was still fine), but rather his personal choices in my opinion.

#97 SpeedRacer`

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 17:06

In 01 it took Montoya some time to adapt to the F1 cars but after mid-point he already had Ralf covered. In Germany a race that Ralf won, Montoya was far into the distance and Ralf was not even close (Tortoise beats hare). After a 10 second lead JPMs had a fuel problem during the first pit-stop and then his engine failed. In Brazil, JoV takes Montoya out from a sure victory... JPM was rookie of the year against Kimi and Alonso.

But in the post race PC, Ralf said he deliberately backed off as the BMW engineers had told them the engines were likely to fail if they did that in the heat.

#98 CSquared

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 18:06

Yeah, Dennis is just a massive cock...

He was certainly a terrible manager of drivers, with a history of conflict and controversy like no other team manager. I think a large part of the blame for JPM's unhappiness with and exit from F1 lies directly with Dennis.

#99 redreni

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 18:18

In 01 it took Montoya some time to adapt to the F1 cars but after mid-point he already had Ralf covered. In Germany a race that Ralf won, Montoya was far into the distance and Ralf was not even close (Tortoise beats hare). After a 10 second lead JPMs had a fuel problem during the first pit-stop and then his engine failed. In Brazil, JoV takes Montoya out from a sure victory... JPM was rookie of the year against Kimi and Alonso.

In 02, no one came close to Ferrari but Montoya, that race Ralf won in Malaysia was because Shumi took Montoya out at the start of the race from the front row.

In 03. there was a fight going on in the garage during the european races, Montoya threaten to quit the team because Williams was only focusing on Ralf. Do you remember Monaco that year or Silverstone (his charge through the field). More often than not, JPM would always pass Ralf on track and finish ahead.

In 04, I don't think Ralf was even close ..


You‘re quite right, if you compare Ralf‘s actual results with the ones Montoya might have got if everything had gone to plan, Montoya would have had more wins than Ralf. And the scores on the doors, which already favour Montoya, would look even better for him.

Back to reality, though, the reason we got to the European season in 2003 and Williams were focusing on Ralf, is because Ralf was doing what no Williams driver had done since 1997; having a credible tilt at the title. Patrick Head and Sam Michael believed that if they were going to win the title with anyone, Ralf was the better bet. Going into Silverstone, which was the halfway point, Ralf was in a position where a win could have given him the lead and he was the bookies‘ second favourite behind MSC. Montoya never got into that good a position during his time in F1, and he did not have Ralf "covered" which is why he kicked off. Admittedly Ralf‘s title challenge collapsed with a string of DNFs, mostly the team‘s fault with one or two accidents for good measure.

Montoya was better at hustling for points when the car was bad, but he really struggled to match Ralf when the car was at its best. He managed it from time to time. But in order to challenge for the title in that car he could not have afforded to lose any points to his teammate, and he was never capable of beating Ralf on a consistent basis.

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#100 discover23

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 18:52

You‘re quite right, if you compare Ralf‘s actual results with the ones Montoya might have got if everything had gone to plan, Montoya would have had more wins than Ralf. And the scores on the doors, which already favour Montoya, would look even better for him.

Back to reality, though, the reason we got to the European season in 2003 and Williams were focusing on Ralf, is because Ralf was doing what no Williams driver had done since 1997; having a credible tilt at the title. Patrick Head and Sam Michael believed that if they were going to win the title with anyone, Ralf was the better bet. Going into Silverstone, which was the halfway point, Ralf was in a position where a win could have given him the lead and he was the bookies‘ second favourite behind MSC. Montoya never got into that good a position during his time in F1, and he did not have Ralf "covered" which is why he kicked off. Admittedly Ralf‘s title challenge collapsed with a string of DNFs, mostly the team‘s fault with one or two accidents for good measure.

Montoya was better at hustling for points when the car was bad, but he really struggled to match Ralf when the car was at its best. He managed it from time to time. But in order to challenge for the title in that car he could not have afforded to lose any points to his teammate, and he was never capable of beating Ralf on a consistent basis.


...so Montoya already had 3 podiums and a win (Monaco) before they went to Europe and Ralf had 1 win (canada) and 1 podium. I don't have the exact point count but I am pretty sure that it was almost the same for anyone in the team to decide this early that 1 driver, and that being Ralf, would be the sure bet for the title - That is ludicrous. That was only Sam who always had a soft spot for the German. After those two wins by Ralf in Europe, he was no where in the following race at Silverstone, whereas JPM kept his title contention intact finishing 2nd in those two races and then at Silverstone also, where he demonstrated that he was that much better driver than Ralf - the two William drivers had to do stacked pitsops and montoya got relegated to restart from the back.. He overtook Ralf and a bunch of other drivers to ultimately finish the race 2nd right behind Rubens. That was during his streak of 8 consecutive podiums - then Germany came and Montoya takes the pole and wins the race while Ralf is getting a penalty from the FIA for ruining Kimi's race and causing a mess at the start. After that Ralf was already out - too far back - and Montoya only a handful of points behind Michael in the championship.

Edited by discover23, 26 June 2013 - 18:57.