34 replies to this topic

[KiloWatt]

Being a Merc fan, I regard Lotus as the closest competition. This has been the case since 2010. So, over a season, who do you reckon has the upper hand? This answer by definition should not be track specific. That being said, I do think the balance of power depends heavily on the type of track. So when it comes down to it, I guess the root of the question is: are there more 'Lotus' tracks or 'Mercedes' tracks in a season?

As it stands, I think at peak performance the mercedes is quicker. The downfall of the car is that the perfomance is waaay too peaky and track specific. So in that regard I think Lotus has a far better 'all round' car.

Based on that, and I hate to say it, I think the Lotus is a better car.

[Zoetrope]

I voted Lotus was faster untill now, but I think it was due to the tyres in the opening stages of the season, hence such results. Merc had worse degradation and their speed was useless.

I expect Lotus to beat Mercedes on merit only occasionally from now on. On average Mercedes will be quicker.

[SpaMaster]

Lotus with one driver is leading Mercedes that is said to have the best driving pair. It is an easy guess which car is faster. The way I see it over the past two years:
1.
2.
3.


4.

[BigCHrome]

Lotus with one driver is leading Mercedes that is said to have the best driving pair. It is an easy guess which car is faster. The way I see it over the past two years:
1.
2.
3.


4.

Rosberg has had 2 huge retirements and the crap tires have benefitted Lotus and hurt Mercedes the most. Lets not forget that Lotus were useless in 2010 and 2011.

[SpaMaster]

Rosberg has had 2 huge retirements and the crap tires have benefitted Lotus and hurt Mercedes the most. Lets not forget that Lotus were useless in 2010 and 2011.

A car that keeps retiring can have upper hand over a season?

Crap tyres!? Any other excuse?

Lotus was useless in 2010? Go rewatch that season.

[senna da silva]

Merc in Q and Lotus in the race.

[undersquare]

This is a hard one. The cars are quite opposite in how they qualify and race, and that matters a lot at some tracks and hardly at all at others. The Lotus drivers make more mistakes, even Kimi, and Grosjean is a liability. What would happen if you swapped the drivers across?

Hmm, I reckon Nico and Lewis are better at bringing their tyres in and would qualify the Lotus higher, then it would race better. So I feel that as a car the Lotus is better, but there are signs that the Merc is receiving more development and will overtake it during the season.

[Trust]

A car that keeps retiring can have upper hand over a season?

Crap tyres!? Any other excuse?

Lotus was useless in 2010? Go rewatch that season.

The thread is about speed, not about best car.

[Trust]

This is a hard one. The cars are quite opposite in how they qualify and race, and that matters a lot at some tracks and hardly at all at others. The Lotus drivers make more mistakes, even Kimi, and Grosjean is a liability. What would happen if you swapped the drivers across?

Hmm, I reckon Nico and Lewis are better at bringing their tyres in and would qualify the Lotus higher, then it would race better. So I feel that as a car the Lotus is better, but there are signs that the Merc is receiving more development and will overtake it during the season.

Then again Kimi could qualify in Merc on pole in every track and with his superior tyre managment he could win all races.

[Szoelloe]

On average: Mercedes. The gap will increase further I hope, as Merc gets better with the tyres - if they do. If they don't the question will be pointless within a few races.

[bauss]

Then again Kimi could qualify in Merc on pole in every track and with his superior tyre managment he could win all races.

[SpaMaster]

The thread is about speed, not about best car.

The OP is:

Being a Merc fan, I regard Lotus as the closest competition. This has been the case since 2010. So, over a season, who do you reckon has the upper hand? This answer by definition should not be track specific. That being said, I do think the balance of power depends heavily on the type of track. So when it comes down to it, I guess the root of the question is: are there more 'Lotus' tracks or 'Mercedes' tracks in a season?

As it stands, I think at peak performance the mercedes is quicker. The downfall of the car is that the perfomance is waaay too peaky and track specific. So in that regard I think Lotus has a far better 'all round' car.

Based on that, and I hate to say it, I think the Lotus is a better car.

The thread is about the car and the context is the overall performance of the car, not just speed.

[Trust]

Ok, it's my mistake, but the title is clearly misleading. We surely agree that best car and quickest aren't the same things?

[SpaMaster]

Yes, I agree the best car and the fastest car are not the same. Even that I would only use it to differentiate reliability from speed. Other than that, when talking of speed, one has to consider the speed to finish the Grand Prix overall rather single-lap qualy speed. I would refer the latter specifically as one-lap speed.

[Pitlane]

Since the Mercedes is a far better car for qualifications, the benefits of the Lotus are often negated because its stuck in traffic.

So all in all I think they are currently pretty equal actually.

But if Merc has solved its tyre problems, then it would have the upper hand unless Lotus can find more one lap speed with this Silverstone update.

Edited by Pitlane, 26 June 2013 - 15:32.

[bauss]

Since the Mercedes is a far better car for qualifications, the benefits of the Lotus are often negated because its stuck in traffic.

So all in all I think they are currently pretty equal actually.

But if Merc has solved its tyre problems, then it would have the upper hand unless Lotus can find more one lap speed with this Silverstone update.

the only track where qualy is an advantage is Monaco.

On just about every other track it's been straightforward to overtake, especially if a car had race winning pace like the Lotus.

Will I rather my favorite driver in the Lotus or Merc?... no question, the Lotus. The points are on Sunday not Saturday

[speednerd]

Mercedes easily.

Mercedes' problems at some of the tracks has been excessively highlighted while Lotus' lack of pace hasn't made that much news. It could be because of the fact that while Mercedes is super quick in qualifying, their pace has dropped off in some of the races so far. But the Lotus didn't have that speed to begin with (at the tracks where they struggled).

The season's not even halfway in. Mercedes is already a tyre test to the good. They'll probably end up smashing Lotus by the end of the season.

[KiloWatt]

Ok, it's my mistake, but the title is clearly misleading. We surely agree that best car and quickest aren't the same things?

Apologies fellas. The title is indeed misleading. Simply put, my intention with the thread really is to ascertain the car which is, on average, fastest over a race distance. So in that regard, reliability doesn't feature in my intention - purely racing speed (on average, I can't stress that enough).

As an aside, I'm surprised to see mercedes leading this one, albeit barely. I really thought it would be Lotus hands down. That said, I'm sticking with my original opinion that on average the Lotus is faster. I think if you swapped the drivers around, Lotus would be out of sight already in the WCC ranking.

Edited by KiloWatt, 26 June 2013 - 20:26.

[Trust]

Well then when you put it that way it is simple. Mercedes is faster over one lap, but Lotus was faster on average in races surely till now.

[Cool Beans]

Apologies fellas. The title is indeed misleading. Simply put, my intention with the thread really is to ascertain the car which is, on average, fastest over a race distance. So in that regard, reliability doesn't feature in my intention - purely racing speed (on average, I can't stress that enough).

As an aside, I'm surprised to see mercedes leading this one, albeit barely. I really thought it would be Lotus hands down. That said, I'm sticking with my original opinion that on average the Lotus is faster. I think if you swapped the drivers around, Lotus would be out of sight already in the WCC ranking.

Interestingly you're attributing the strengths of the Mercedes to the drivers and the weaknesses to the car vs. the other way on the Lotus. Just... interesting, coming from an apparent Mercedes fan.

[autosportfan]

funny view.

[skywing]

Apologies fellas. The title is indeed misleading. Simply put, my intention with the thread really is to ascertain the car which is, on average, fastest over a race distance. So in that regard, reliability doesn't feature in my intention - purely racing speed (on average, I can't stress that enough).

As an aside, I'm surprised to see mercedes leading this one, albeit barely. I really thought it would be Lotus hands down. That said, I'm sticking with my original opinion that on average the Lotus is faster. I think if you swapped the drivers around, Lotus would be out of sight already in the WCC ranking.

I think you would only need to swap one driver...

[turssi]

Merc in Q and Lotus in the race.

Agree.

[Rybo]

Interestingly you're attributing the strengths of the Mercedes to the drivers and the weaknesses to the car vs. the other way on the Lotus. Just... interesting, coming from an apparent Mercedes fan.

Without trying to derail the thread too much. Merc have always had trouble with overheating the tires. And Lotus as always been fairly good on tire wear and preservation. There are a number of reason why that is the case for both teams, but I think fundamentally Lotus have a better car as it gives more flexibility on strategy. For quickest going to have to go with the merc.

[Seanspeed]

Really difficult question.

Basically, I ask myself: If I was a competitor, which car would I rather be in?

And that would be the Lotus. Qualifying up at the very front is great, but falling back during the race almost every time is so much worse.

The Lotus does seem to be quite imperfect in its own ways, though. Its got similar characteristics to last year, but it doesn't seem quite as easy to exploit them as Grosjean's struggles show. Its still ultimately the better race car, though.

[Shiroo]

well if Lotus would have at least 2nd driver calibre of Massa, it would be clear for everyone.

At the moment it is like 3 drivers match, where 2 are driving for Mercedes, 1 is driving for Lotus and he also has a bag that needs to be carried and is called Romain.
mercedes has 2 top drivers, while lotus has top driver and something. And that something disallow to be in top 3 atm in WCC. They should be right behind RBR or Ferrari, now they are behind Mercedes.
in General Lotus is better car, maybe it isnt best quali car, but it is way superior in race.

[Kingshark]

Lotus were quicker in Australia, Bahrain and Spain. Mercedes on the other hand were faster in Malaysia, Monaco and Canada.
I have a hard time calling China, Merc were the car to have in qualy, but Lotus seemed to have a bit more race speed, even with a damaged nosecone.

Overall, I'd give the edge to the E21 over the MGP04.

With that being said, if the pecking order stays like it is (Lotus and Merc constantly fluctuating), Mercedes will definitely win the battle for 3rd in the WCC. They have better drivers, Raikkonen and Hamilton are about equal, but Rosberg is obviously much better than Grosjean.

Edited by Kingshark, 27 June 2013 - 00:41.

[OvDrone]

Quickest overall, as in pure speed ... Merc.

[KiloWatt]

Interestingly you're attributing the strengths of the Mercedes to the drivers and the weaknesses to the car vs. the other way on the Lotus. Just... interesting, coming from an apparent Mercedes fan.

You think so? Is it odd for a fan of a team to consider its car worse than another teams', but its driver pairing better?

[speednerd]

You think so? Is it odd for a fan of a team to consider its car worse than another teams', but its driver pairing better?

Yup. However, it is normal for a fan of the drivers to think that way

[Wander]

This is seriously difficult to call, but I think Merc might have overtaken Lotus in development. we'll need to see if a more normal track like Silverstone brings Lotus back to the competition this weekend, though.

[Trust]

I would change my car now with whom I would fight for the title.

[Desdirodeabike]

Comsidering that Hamilton had a tire failure that sent him to the back of the grid and still managed to get by Kimi at the end, I think the answer is clear at this point.
Helped by SC and bad strategy by Lotus, but still.

[Vesuvius]

Mercedes at the moment is clearly ahead, pace is dominating in quali and they are better in race pace at the moment than Lotus.

[turssi]

Mercedes at the moment is clearly ahead, pace is dominating in quali and they are better in race pace at the moment than Lotus.

Yeah, but only since Silverstone / the secret Pirelli testing.