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Who will be granted the Red Bull seat?


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Poll: Who is in pole to take the vacant Red Bull seat? (752 member(s) have cast votes)

Who do you think will be Vettel's next teammate?

  1. Raikkonen (340 votes [53.21%])

    Percentage of vote: 53.21%

  2. Ricciardo (274 votes [42.88%])

    Percentage of vote: 42.88%

  3. Alonso (25 votes [3.91%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.91%

Vote

#101 Disgrace

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 20:13

They would look much sillier choosing a mediocre driver over a good one.


Quite. If neither of the current STR duo are promoted, then I foresee another double driver replacement.

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#102 redreni

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 20:18

Just to point out the obvious: The upside could be that RB thinks Kimi gets more points than the TR drivers.


There's an upside of course, but the downside is it affects your chances of winning the WDC.

How often do teams with relatively closesly matched drivers win the WDC? The last time it happened was 2010, but only because the team with the unchallenged number 1 driver (Ferrari) tossed it away at the last race. Previous time was 2009, although that was fought out between Brawn and Red Bull, neither of which went into the season expecting to fight for the title, so neither of which had planned to have one driver who wouldn't take points off the other. The previous occasion was 2007, but that was a bit of an abberation too because Alonso and Kimi had been signed with the expectation that they would lead their respective teams, and both Hamilton and Massa performed well above expectations, but it would have been an advantage for either team to have a more unequal distribution of points between their drivers.

With those three exceptions the most recent occasion where a team has won the WDC despite its two drivers regularly taking points off each other was 1996, and even that's arguable because Villeneuve only took points off Hill by finishing ahead of him in races four times in the whole season, and two of those were of little consequence since Hill had by then already built a commanding championship lead, to the extent that finishing behind Villeneuve was still a good result for him.

Putting the above three, or maybe four, exceptions aside it hasn't happened since 1989. Having closely matched drivers who take points off each other is simply not a good way of trying to win the drivers' title.

#103 Zyzzx

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 20:23

There's an upside of course, but the downside is it affects your chances of winning the WDC.

How often do teams with relatively closesly matched drivers win the WDC? The last time it happened was 2010, but only because the team with the unchallenged number 1 driver (Ferrari) tossed it away at the last race. Previous time was 2009, although that was fought out between Brawn and Red Bull, neither of which went into the season expecting to fight for the title, so neither of which had planned to have one driver who wouldn't take points off the other. The previous occasion was 2007, but that was a bit of an abberation too because Alonso and Kimi had been signed with the expectation that they would lead their respective teams, and both Hamilton and Massa performed well above expectations, but it would have been an advantage for either team to have a more unequal distribution of points between their drivers.

With those three exceptions the most recent occasion where a team has won the WDC despite its two drivers regularly taking points off each other was 1996, and even that's arguable because Villeneuve only took points off Hill by finishing ahead of him in races four times in the whole season, and two of those were of little consequence since Hill had by then already built a commanding championship lead, to the extent that finishing behind Villeneuve was still a good result for him.

Putting the above three, or maybe four, exceptions aside it hasn't happened since 1989. Having closely matched drivers who take points off each other is simply not a good way of trying to win the drivers' title.


I thought most teams only care about the WCC anyways? As thats where the money is. So having 2 strong drivers can be seen as taking points away from other teams, not each other.

edit typo

Edited by Zyzzx, 27 June 2013 - 20:24.


#104 Jackman

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 20:27

Antonio Felix da Costa.

#105 redreni

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 20:30

Quite. If neither of the current STR duo are promoted, then I foresee another double driver replacement.


I don't know how Red Bull know they're not putting potential winners on the scrapheap by doing this, though? The STR is no longer the blatant Red Bull clone it was when Vettel was getting results in it. If their drivers are evenly matched, how do they know if they're both equally bad, or both equally brilliant but stuck in a bad car?

Now that Webber's leaving, is there anything to stop them giving Ricciardo and JEV a couple of FP1s each in Webber's car this season? Just let them go for it and show, if they can, that they have the ability to step up? At least that might give them some sort of an idea of what they're rejecting before they reject them...

#106 David Beard

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 20:34

Do they know something?


New Wallace and Grommet film taking precedence?


#107 jjcale

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 20:35

Schumi. 3 year contract.

:clap:

#108 jjcale

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 20:36

What has his personality got to do with anything?

He usually always brings the car home. Without incident too.

Funny how Force India have stated today that they'll not stand in di Restas way if a top team come calling.

Do they know something?


Reunite SV and PdR :clap:

#109 redreni

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 20:40

I thought most teams only care about the WCC anyways? As thats where the money is. So having 2 strong drivers can be seen as taking points away from other teams, not each other.

edit typo


A lot of teams are more bothered about the WCC but I'd argue that's for reasons of pride rather than money. The WCC affects the cut of the FOM money a team gets to some extent, although the difference between first and second isn't so huge in per centage terms, and it's far from the only factor that's taken into account when the pot is split. But the WDC gives you the number 1 on your car and sponsors are drawn to that, so the commercial benefit of having the world champion driver can't be underestimated. And it's worth noting that the WCC and WDC usually, though not always, go to the same team anyway.

#110 Currahee

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 20:42

Reunite SV and PdR :clap:


It would be brilliant. :drunk:

#111 Velocifer

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 20:42

The deal with Raikkonen is probably already on the table, many pundits are reporting it and Red Bull admit they want him, so I don't understand why people are dismissing the story when they know squat. A lot of experts around here.

If Red Bull cared about internal harmony, they would have kicked out Webber a long time ago and employed any of the TR guys. This is not about internal atmosphere, this is about having two competitive drivers scoring as many points as possible. And hiring one from the sister team won't accomplish anything, no matter how good they show they are right now.

With so many uncertainties in the new turbo engine era, they need a consistent and reliable driver. I don't recall Vergne or Ricciardo being any of the two.

Agree. If that falls through, a Renault French connection with Vergne might also be useful.


#112 Mauseri

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 20:44

a few bookmakers have odds up, and they reckon

Raikonnen = ~70% chance
Vergne =~10% chance
Ricciardo =~8% chance
Di Resta =~6% chance
and then some others <5%

I'm not convinced Raikonnen should be such a strong favourite

Bookmarkers only need to respond what people are playing, not the real chances of it happening.

#113 Mauseri

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 20:48

Kimi is nice but I don't see the point in RedBull putting a 34 year old next to their triple WDC, what they want to look for is for someone to take the mantle after Vettel leaves

Well I guess they are interested in the WCC too and Kimi wouldn't let them down in that respect. Not crashing with teammate and bringing loads of points.

Also it is understood that Kimi is stronger in races than qualifying, so he wouldn't ruin Vettel's easy victories from the front.

Edited by Mauseri, 27 June 2013 - 20:49.


#114 MikeV1987

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 20:50

Reunite SV and PdR :clap:


I would love to see this, IIRC PdR talked a bunch of shit a couple years back about how he could beat Vettel in a RB, or something along those lines.

found it: http://www.jamesalle...d-the-best-car/
Di Resta was famously team mate to Sebastian Vettel in F3 back in 2006 and beat him in equal cars. The Scotsman is a year older than his celebrated former colleague and took longer to break into F1 because he didn’t have a BMW or a Red Bull to push him forward.

Invited to draw conclusions from what their past says about their relative situations today, Di Resta takes the bait,

“We had the same car, same engine, same tyres and I beat him,” said Di Resta. “I don’t want to diminish Vettel’s achievement (this year), but he won the championship because he had the best car. He did his job, but another driver in the same car would probably have achieved the same results. I hope one day to have the same opportunity.

Edited by MikeV1987, 27 June 2013 - 20:53.


#115 charly0418

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 20:54

Antonio Felix da Costa.


He's getting beaten by a rookie in 3.5, no

#116 swerved

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 21:00

Vergne. The better of the two STR drivers. Regarding other options - Raikkonen is not young any more, and his motivation is questionable. Hulkenberg and Di Resta are massively overrated and are only good for the midfield. Plus Red Bull would look rather silly not promoting from their junior team.



Not nearly as questionable as yours :)

#117 Juggles

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 21:24

I voted Ricciardo because I don't think Red Bull want to rock the boat too much. I'd like to see Hulkenberg in there though, I actually think he'd be a more interesting long term challenge to Vettel than Raikkonen.

#118 Dzeidzei

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 21:36

Funny how Force India have stated today that they'll not stand in di Restas way if a top team come calling.

Do they know something?


Yes, they know they will never have to stand in his way.

#119 grunge

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 21:40

RB signing KR still doesnt make much sense to me...Its working great for them having Seb around winning titles one after the other with a team mate like Webber who is good enough to rack up a decent amount of points yet not on the level to challenge Seb consistently...Signing KR/Ham most certainly is going to disturb this arrangement.

Im not impressed by Ricciardo or Vergne...and im pretty sure RB isnt bound by anything to make them necessarily pick up either of the two..I wouldnt even start on DiResta as i dont rate him at all.

Hulkenberg seems like the ideal choice..Specially considering the fact that Vettel may venture out of RB post 2015...The Hulk would be ready to step into his shoes..

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#120 bourbon

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 21:45

Hmmm, now you mention it I don't think any of the other German drivers would be a safe choice...

Personally I'd replace Sebi with Kimi, win championships and sell a lot more fizzy drinks, but that's just me.


Do you own a business? Because replacing the framework that served as the architect of your success makes for selling many less fizzy drinks (assuming there is a link) :)

Kimi & Sebastian = perfect. We'll see if we get that. It would be an awesome, close competition. Of course, Alonso and Hamilton would be in a rock in a hard place. They have already admitted Kimi is a great driver in their opinions, so cries of "its the car, its the car!" would be grossly hypocritical - I wonder if they would go there? Prolly... lol

#121 travbrad

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 21:49

I'd like to see a Raikkonen/Vettel pairing but I expect them to go with one of the STR drivers. I would actually expect Vettel to beat Kimi over the course of a season, but it would probably be a lot closer than Vettel would like. We've seen how badly he reacts when Webber is beating him, so I can't imagine him wanting to have Raikkonen in the same car as him. I think Vettel also plays the inter-team political game a lot better than Kimi.

Edited by travbrad, 27 June 2013 - 22:02.


#122 travbrad

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 22:02

Yes he is not young anymore but in no means old either, he still has few years left.


Yeah considering the length of most F1 contracts I don't think his age should be that much of an issue.

The idea of hiring a young driver is to hire someone who can push/lead the team into the future for many years to come (like Schumacher at Ferrari or Vettel at RBR), but I don't see any young drivers right now who look like they are the next Schumi/Vettel. If you are just going to hire a young driver to make up the points, then why not just hire Mr. Consistency (Kimi) instead?

I'm not sure Vettel/RBR will agree with me however :p

#123 Mandzipop

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 22:10

I almost feel sorry for who will replace him. For one of the STR guys, I think they will struggle. I don't think either if them are mature enough to take up the mantle. I'm not saying they are immature, but Seb is one of or if not the most ruthless driver on the grid.

Although Kimi would be a good option, there is the issue of Seb's contract to be looked into. If Seb leaves after his contract expires, then will Kimi still be there? Or will they have to replace both drivers? I wouldn't be shocked if they went for a stop-gap driver, one to keep the seat warm for one of the STR drivers for a year.

I'd be looking at someone who would be happy to join the Red Bull team and be a stop gap and be happy to do that, whilst being a good points scorer. Needs to be solid and a decent qualifier. Easy, Kova.

#124 John Player

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 22:12

They could get Massa on a one year contract and then put one of the toro rosso drivers.

#125 jurlich

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 22:19

Kubica for 90%

#126 F1ultimate

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 22:22

Kubica for 90%


If only :|

#127 Les

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 22:50

Its a very tough call. Kimi certainly seems to be a possibility it appears, but the boss of the Red Bull team has been talking about wanting a say about his team-mate for next year http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/23081346. For me Vergne or Ricciardo are favourites. I would have easily said Ricciardo earlier this season but recently Vergne has come into some good form. It'll be interesting to see if one can establish the upper hand from Silverstone onwards.

Edited by Les, 27 June 2013 - 23:24.


#128 rasul

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 23:19

Its a very tough call. Kimi certainly seems to be a possibility it appears but the boss of the Red Bull team has been talking about wanting a say about his team-mate for next year http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/23081346. For me Vergne or Ricciardo are favourites. I would have easily said Ricciardo earlier this season but recently Vergne has come into some good form. It'll be interesting to see if one can establish the upper hand from Silverstone onwards.

Horner confirms that he understood the message:

Horner added that Vettel would be consulted on the decision.

"For sure Sebastian will be kept in the loop about who our choice of drivers are. His opinion has a value as well because he's out there racing against these guys and sometimes he sees things that we don't. Of course he will be kept fully in the loop."

Tomorrow every driver will suddenly become Vettel's best friend. :p

But joking aside, of course it's only right to consult with their reigning triple WDC and a team leader. I'm actually not sure that Vettel wouldn't push for Kimi himself. He's likely perfectly aware that beating Kimi would get him much more credit than beating STR guys. And of course it doesn't hurt that they're pretty good buddies.

#129 grunge

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 23:27

His opinion has a value as well because he's out there racing against these guys and sometimes he sees things that we don't


I wonder what those things are...that he sees but they dont. :lol:

#130 Les

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 23:37

Tomorrow every driver will suddenly become Vettel's best friend. :p


indeed :lol:

#131 grunge

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 23:49

I almost feel sorry for who will replace him. For one of the STR guys, I think they will struggle. I don't think either if them are mature enough to take up the mantle. I'm not saying they are immature, but Seb is one of or if not the most ruthless driver on the grid.

Although Kimi would be a good option, there is the issue of Seb's contract to be looked into. If Seb leaves after his contract expires, then will Kimi still be there? Or will they have to replace both drivers? I wouldn't be shocked if they went for a stop-gap driver, one to keep the seat warm for one of the STR drivers for a year.

I'd be looking at someone who would be happy to join the Red Bull team and be a stop gap and be happy to do that, whilst being a good points scorer. Needs to be solid and a decent qualifier. Easy, Kova.

This..based my post on that point too..There are two possibilities

Vettel leaving in 2016

KR isnt the guy for the long haul..Putting his age aside,he is not someone who'd be ok with a long contract ...he might come to decide after a couple of years time that he doesnt want to do this anymore. A Hulkenberg IMO suits the role better,someone who can take up where Vettel left(if he does leave for Ferrari come 2016) and carry on for quite a few years to come.

Vettel isnt going anywhere

Here KR might come in as an option for a 2 year or so contract where he drives for them till 2016 and then RB fill up his place with one of the TR guys..But even then they are taking a big risk as KR can be anything but a 2nd driver..He'll match Vettel all the way and RB wont have any reason/legitimacy to issue tell him stuff like ''maintain position''.Two alpha males can not co-exist.

So No, the KR to RedBull rumor doesnt make any sense to me..but i still hope like hell that it happens.

On Kova,i think hes just too high risk considering his Mclaren performace...Granted he just crumbled under the pressure there and since then he's improved a lot but i dont believe any top team will touch him again.

#132 JimiKart

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 23:57

I would love to see this, IIRC PdR talked a bunch of shit a couple years back about how he could beat Vettel in a RB, or something along those lines.

found it: http://www.jamesalle...d-the-best-car/
Di Resta was famously team mate to Sebastian Vettel in F3 back in 2006 and beat him in equal cars. The Scotsman is a year older than his celebrated former colleague and took longer to break into F1 because he didn’t have a BMW or a Red Bull to push him forward.

Invited to draw conclusions from what their past says about their relative situations today, Di Resta takes the bait,

“We had the same car, same engine, same tyres and I beat him,” said Di Resta. “I don’t want to diminish Vettel’s achievement (this year), but he won the championship because he had the best car. He did his job, but another driver in the same car would probably have achieved the same results. I hope one day to have the same opportunity.


It's pretty funny that you think you have more insight into vettel's skills than a racer who drove along side him in the same team and beat him...more insight into F1 than a driver from today's crop...when someone beats you in the same equipment it's not called talking scheisse... it's called a valid opinion based in facts.

#133 dave34m

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 00:09

I would dearly love to see a top driver in the seat, it would go a long way to boasting Vettels career if he can beat a top driver, but if he did then all the talk would be about Red Bull sabotaging that driver as well. Probably the best thing for Vettel and Red Bull is to promote a STR driver in a view to bring the next level up to the top team for immediate support in another Vettel challenge in the WDC and for the team in the WCC, also with a view for the future.

#134 mattferg

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 00:21

I almost feel sorry for who will replace him. For one of the STR guys, I think they will struggle. I don't think either if them are mature enough to take up the mantle. I'm not saying they are immature, but Seb is one of or if not the most ruthless driver on the grid.

Although Kimi would be a good option, there is the issue of Seb's contract to be looked into. If Seb leaves after his contract expires, then will Kimi still be there? Or will they have to replace both drivers? I wouldn't be shocked if they went for a stop-gap driver, one to keep the seat warm for one of the STR drivers for a year.

I'd be looking at someone who would be happy to lose the constructors championship, be a terrible qualifier and overall underperformer who isn't even in the sport at the moment. Easy, Kova.


Fixed :)

#135 DILLIGAF

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 00:45

Hopefully Kimi. If not Kimi then Ricciardo.

#136 grunge

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 01:33

...when someone beats you in the same equipment it's not called talking scheisse... it's called a valid opinion based in facts.

No...its a valid opinion on one isolated season 6 and a half years back...the 06 version Vettel vs 06 version PdR...Nothing more.Also it doesnt consider the other outside factors that came into play that year such as Vettel's insanely busy schedule as he was recruited by BMW Sauber mid season..Mario Theissen himself said that his weaker performance in the latter half was down to his conflicting testing duties for BMW in their 2006 F1 season campaign.

A much more 'generalized' opinion would include their respective careers..One has proven himself multiple times and is now a 3 times WDC. Year after year he retains the most coveted seat in F1 in recent times which tells you more than enough about his 'worth' in RB Management's eyes.

The other frankly is a nobody right now with the only reason to his fame being his nationality.

#137 Meanbeakin

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 02:01

It should be Ricciardo or Vergne, my preference is Ricciardo but if not one of those two then why bother with Toro Rosso?

#138 Fox1

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 02:45

Fixed :)

Hekki was actually a very good qualifier.

#139 Brother Fox

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 03:11

Did somebody say Kobayashi?



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#140 paulogman

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 04:20

what? no rubens or jacques options?
I'm disappointed.
guess I'll just have to go with my gut and say JPM

#141 Jimisgod

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 05:05

Raikkonen, because it nullifies Lotus. Grosjean? ha!

Lotus will probably have 2 new drivers then, I'll back them taking one of the Toro rosso pair and probably Hulkenberg.

#142 ivand911

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 05:57

I am for Hulk. Better than both STR guys and with potential to replace Vettel some day.

#143 sergeym

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 06:00

One problem for RB is that replacing Webber with somebody other that Torro Rosso pair basically declares that RB young driver program is useless. None of the drivers from that program, apart from Vettel, secured a place in F1 after being dumped by RB.

#144 Brother Fox

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 06:06

I dont think it does. It shows thet they are not ready, but not necessarily not good enough

#145 Mercedestorque1

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 06:33

No Way is Redbull going to sign Kimi. vettel is the protected No1 and judging from kimi's comments yesterday he really doesnt care about who is number one and all he has to do is Race!!! if Redbull sign Kimi i'll be very very shocked!

#146 DILLIGAF

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 08:42

I am for Hulk. Better than both STR guys and with potential to replace Vettel some day.


Hard to say he's better than JEV or Ricciardo imho. Would he be doing any better in a TR? A complete unknown really.

#147 Oho

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 08:47

No Way is Redbull going to sign Kimi. vettel is the protected No1 and judging from kimi's comments yesterday he really doesnt care about who is number one and all he has to do is Race!!! if Redbull sign Kimi i'll be very very shocked!


I don't think the problem with Hamilton Vettel combo was hiring a driver that can push Vettel but the prospect of having two drives both of whom have a pretty good chance at lashing out as soon as they loose to one another especially if they think they were given the raw end of the stick in anyway. They, quite rightly I might add, fear for McLaren scenarios of late 80's and more recently 2007.

#148 ZooL

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 08:49

somebody crap

#149 Craven Morehead

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 09:16

Ok, I did.

#150 bourbon

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 09:44

It's pretty funny that you think you have more insight into vettel's skills than a racer who drove along side him in the same team and beat him...more insight into F1 than a driver from today's crop...when someone beats you in the same equipment it's not called talking scheisse... it's called a valid opinion based in facts.


Your points are interesting in that I thought you were talking about Mark, lol.

In any case, we are in 2013 - Paul's "insight" might be a bit outdated.