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Who will be granted the Red Bull seat?


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Poll: Who is in pole to take the vacant Red Bull seat? (752 member(s) have cast votes)

Who do you think will be Vettel's next teammate?

  1. Raikkonen (340 votes [53.21%])

    Percentage of vote: 53.21%

  2. Ricciardo (274 votes [42.88%])

    Percentage of vote: 42.88%

  3. Alonso (25 votes [3.91%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.91%

Vote

#2151 Cyanide

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 13:01

I don't really know what the lack of news means. Boulier on JA on F1 said that he's confident he'll retain Kimi. The Red Bull camp have been praising Ricciardo following the silverstone test. But if Red Bull wanted Ricciardo they would have signed him by now and been done with it.


Boullier is confident about a lot of things - the Honeywell deal, James Allison staying with the team, announcing Infinity Racing by the end of last week...None of these ever happened. I'm not taking his words seriously anymore. If the announcement of Infinity Racing comes though, I'm sure Raikkonen's announcement to stay will come as well.

Edited by Cyanide, 09 August 2013 - 13:19.


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#2152 bourbon

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 15:10

he has potential but so does DR.. therefore RB would not be considering someone else like Hulk/DiResta/Sutil/etc.. when they have two drivers who are part of their young program and one who they already confirm it is very fast and capable. Hulkenberg would have to be some extraordinary driver showing glimpses of brilliance at every other race and he is not. He is not even aggressive enough for people to notice him on the race track.. at least we can say that from Perez and teams like to see that aggression..



These guys are both too F1-young and untried. RBR needs proven race winners - Raikkonen, Rosberg, that lot to ensure it continues to compete for the WCC and that there is a healthy intrateam competition.

Edited by bourbon, 09 August 2013 - 15:11.


#2153 Thomas99

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 01:16

Boullier is confident about a lot of things - the Honeywell deal, James Allison staying with the team, announcing Infinity Racing by the end of last week...None of these ever happened. I'm not taking his words seriously anymore. If the announcement of Infinity Racing comes though, I'm sure Raikkonen's announcement to stay will come as well.

Considering we were meant to hear about that last week its seeming less and less likely.

#2154 Boxerevo

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 01:54

What I don't understand about the Red Bull speculation is why Hulkenberg's name is never in the frame. With Sauber's financial problems and the arrival of Sirotkin it is looking increasingly unlikely he'll be a Sauber driver next year. So he's available, he is eight years younger than Raikkonen and, with all due respect to Ricciardo, I think he's got a bit more pace about him. So why not Nico?

Hulk aimed the Ferrari seat going to Sauber.

#2155 discover23

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 02:14

These guys are both too F1-young and untried. RBR needs proven race winners - Raikkonen, Rosberg, that lot to ensure it continues to compete for the WCC and that there is a healthy intrateam competition.

No one is a race winner until they get to drive a winning car - remember Webber 0 wins in what 7/8 years in f1 before he got to RBR?

#2156 mouserat159

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 02:26

I thank Redbull will choose Daniel Ricardo hands down for Vettel's new team mate . I can not see Alonso or Raikkonen obeying Redbull's "Multi 22" like Webber did, so I would go for the easy option in Ricardo.

#2157 bourbon

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 03:01

No one is a race winner until they get to drive a winning car - remember Webber 0 wins in what 7/8 years in f1 before he got to RBR?


But he had many years experience behind him, so when opportunity knocked and he was able to draw on his experience. Daniel has had his stint at HRT and 1.5 years at RBR. He is just building his CV and it is, in my opinion, unrealistic to be given a seat in a top car - not just any top car, but the championship car - at this stage of his career. From RBR's point of view, it makes no sense at all. From Daniel's point of view, what is the rush?

Edited by bourbon, 10 August 2013 - 03:07.


#2158 icecream

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 04:12

From RBR's point of view, it makes no sense at all.


and yet he is continually touted as a potential candidate.

i'd actually argue that most drivers in the field could jump into the seat, and probably do just fine bringing in sufficient points for the wcc. they might not challenge for wdc, but rbr have seb doing just fine at that, and two drivers going for wdc might not be a positive.

#2159 Meanbeakin

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 04:35

These guys are both too F1-young and untried. RBR needs proven race winners - Raikkonen, Rosberg, that lot to ensure it continues to compete for the WCC and that there is a healthy intrateam competition.


Wasn't Vettel promoted from Toro Rosso by Red Bull in similar circumstances? He'd had a 4th at China the year before, but it was before Monza, he was hardly a "Proven race winner" at the time he was signed.

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#2160 OldSoldier2

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 05:47

Wasn't Vettel promoted from Toro Rosso by Red Bull in similar circumstances? He'd had a 4th at China the year before, but it was before Monza, he was hardly a "Proven race winner" at the time he was signed.

What you wrote is very true. Please remember also that Red Bull Racing at the point was a solid midfield team that had yet to win a race until after Vettel joined them. RBR is a very different beast now.

#2161 Thomas99

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 05:50

If McLaren will promote Hamilton to the B seat with no F1 experience I think its fair to say giving Dan a shot is not too far out there.

#2162 bourbon

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 06:05

Wasn't Vettel promoted from Toro Rosso by Red Bull in similar circumstances? He'd had a 4th at China the year before, but it was before Monza, he was hardly a "Proven race winner" at the time he was signed.


The circumstances were far from similar. Vettel brought home 7 top 6 finishes and 10 top 10 finishes. It was obvious Seb's performance was impressive, but the promotion made sense at that time for another important reason: RBR was not a multi-championship winning team.

Seb and Mark helped to build the team into the champion it is today. But whoever fills Mark's seat is not going to be building up the team, they are going to reap the benefits of the team that Mark and Seb helped to build. The expected contribution from the new driver is to help the team challenge for the WCC and promote a healthy intrateam competition towards the WDC. I am not ready to agree that any driver on the grid can fill that role. We've seen young drivers struggle in that role before.

I am not saying Daniel can't do it - I am just saying that there are drivers on the grid that have already proven they can and those are the drivers you would expect a multi-champion team - the present champions - to go after. RBR has placed Daniel on the short list, so whether it makes sense to me or not doesn't really matter...

Edited by bourbon, 10 August 2013 - 06:06.


#2163 Jimisgod

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 10:42

If McLaren will promote Hamilton to the B seat with no F1 experience I think its fair to say giving Dan a shot is not too far out there.


Well, yes. But there seems to have been a rewriting of history to pretend that everyone knew the rookie Hamilton was going to equal Alonso.

#2164 DILLIGAF

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 10:51

Wasn't Vettel promoted from Toro Rosso by Red Bull in similar circumstances? He'd had a 4th at China the year before, but it was before Monza, he was hardly a "Proven race winner" at the time he was signed.


Vettel was quite inexperienced really. Only had 26 GPs to his name before jumping in the Red Bull. Ricciardo will have 50 GPs to his name by the end of this season. I think many doubted Vettel's racing ability when he first moved to RBR purely because of this inexperience. He proved the doubters wrong of course & Ricciardo might just do the same if given the chance.

#2165 Thomas99

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 10:56

Vettel was quite inexperienced really. Only had 26 GPs to his name before jumping in the Red Bull. Ricciardo will have 50 GPs to his name by the end of this season. I think many doubted Vettel's racing ability when he first moved to RBR purely because of this inexperience. He proved the doubters wrong of course & Ricciardo might just do the same if given the chance.

Well. Seb was rather mistake prone at the beginning of his Red Bull career.

He put this behind him in 2011.

#2166 LukeM

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 13:30

The circumstances were far from similar. Vettel brought home 7 top 6 finishes and 10 top 10 finishes. It was obvious Seb's performance was impressive, but the promotion made sense at that time for another important reason: RBR was not a multi-championship winning team.

Seb and Mark helped to build the team into the champion it is today. But whoever fills Mark's seat is not going to be building up the team, they are going to reap the benefits of the team that Mark and Seb helped to build. The expected contribution from the new driver is to help the team challenge for the WCC and promote a healthy intrateam competition towards the WDC. I am not ready to agree that any driver on the grid can fill that role. We've seen young drivers struggle in that role before.

I am not saying Daniel can't do it - I am just saying that there are drivers on the grid that have already proven they can and those are the drivers you would expect a multi-champion team - the present champions - to go after. RBR has placed Daniel on the short list, so whether it makes sense to me or not doesn't really matter...


how do you compare the 2008 Torro Rosso to the 2013 Torro Rosso with a straight face? I mean come on...

#2167 Kyo

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 15:22

how do you compare the 2008 Torro Rosso to the 2013 Torro Rosso with a straight face? I mean come on...

Just my opinion, but I believe Toro Rosso had the 8th best car in 2008 and has the 7th best this year.

#2168 lbennie

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 15:24

Possible, but even the press (well, the handful of sites I frequent most) seem to have got bored now :p. It's all gone very quiet - I even had trouble just finding this thread a couple days ago, because nobody had posted in it for aaaaages*.



*Over 24 hours.


It is the summer break.
It will be the main talking point come next race, trust me.

#2169 OldSoldier2

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 16:05

Just my opinion, but I believe Toro Rosso had the 8th best car in 2008 and has the 7th best this year.

STR was 6th in WCC in 2008; RBR was 7th. Toro Rosso did not get the 2008 chassis (STR3) until the 6th race of the season. The difference that year was Vettel's performances with the STR3.

And no, we won't hear about any decision on Vettel's teammate for 2014 until Spa at the earliest. I hope they get it out of the way then so all the other dominoes can fall for the other teams for next year. Should be interesting.

#2170 st99

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 17:25

In my opinion Vettel was more impressive than Ricciardo during his time at Toro Rosso, normally people only recall his win in Monza but just remember that in only his 6th race he led the Japanese GP and if that crash hadn't happened he would have a podium with a car that hadn't scored points all that year and he was barely 20 years old (and IMO the 2007 Toro Rosso car was worse than the STR8)

If I remember correctly Red Bull announced that Vettel would race for them during the German GP so it was before he won in Monza but back then RB wasn't a front running team so it's obvious that they will have to think more carefully who they want for that seat.

I like both Raikkonen and Ricciardo, but I would prefer Kimi for that seat just to see the intre team battle with Vettel.

#2171 bourbon

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 17:36

In my opinion Vettel was more impressive than Ricciardo during his time at Toro Rosso, normally people only recall his win in Monza but just remember that in only his 6th race he led the Japanese GP and if that crash hadn't happened he would have a podium with a car that hadn't scored points all that year and he was barely 20 years old (and IMO the 2007 Toro Rosso car was worse than the STR8)

If I remember correctly Red Bull announced that Vettel would race for them during the German GP so it was before he won in Monza but back then RB wasn't a front running team so it's obvious that they will have to think more carefully who they want for that seat.


And had Macca trying to get him as well. These are examples of Sebastian being more 'obviously impressive' and the last time Red Bull made a seat choice no one was doing much second guessing - for that reason and because they were a midfield team at the time and nobody cared. In fact, some were suggesting RBR was going to hold Seb back.

Edited by bourbon, 10 August 2013 - 17:55.


#2172 discover23

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 19:08

DR does not need to be the next vettel. He is replacing webber, RB already have their #1 driver who is doing a great job.

#2173 FirstWatt

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 19:38

I voted Kimi, but my wish is the father of this thought.

Would like to see him alongside Vettel, and see if my guesses are correct.

#2174 Cyanide

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 19:53

DR does not need to be the next vettel. He is replacing webber, RB already have their #1 driver who is doing a great job.


This is not about the WDC right now. Mercedes is threatening with two fast and experienced drivers already closing in on this year's WCC. Red Bull need another experienced and fast driver alongside Vettel if they want to defend the constructors. There's no guarantee DR will score the amount of points Raikkonen will.

#2175 discover23

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 20:34

This is not about the WDC right now. Mercedes is threatening with two fast and experienced drivers already closing in on this year's WCC. Red Bull need another experienced and fast driver alongside Vettel if they want to defend the constructors. There's no guarantee DR will score the amount of points Raikkonen will.


What you say is true but I have always wondered if the WCC is as important as it is for the other team who have no chance at the WDC.
Is it better and more prestigious to have a WCC with not WDC or win the WDC and come second in the WCC?
If Webber keeps doing his job, scoring at least 70/75 points of Vettel's tally I don't think there is a chance Mercedes can win it. Part of Webber's low points is due to the team, you cannot blame it all on him since when it comes to his car and strategies he seems to always be behind vettel therefore the wcc, which is a team effort, cannot entirely be a consequence of the performance drivers.
In 2010 webber almost won the wdc ...I do believe that was his peak and now he is perhaps not as sharp but I have no reason to believe that a young talented driver coming in would be less good than Webber 2013 since I never rated Webber to be a top driver and he is on his way out ..


#2176 SpaMaster

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 20:46

I was thinking about no.1/no.2 set-up vs equal status in light of the Red Bull seat recently. In case of two top-level equal status case, the case of one taking the points off the other can be equate to a loss of half a position each race on average. A and B finish 2 and 3, 3 and 2, 3 and 4, 4 and 3, etc. Let's say you have another top team (of equal performance car for comparison). Let's say this driver C then oscillates back and forth of driver A from the other team.

Case 1: no.1/no2 set-up for A
Avg. finishing position of A (let'say): 3
Then, avg. finishing position of C: 3

Case 2: equal-status A-B
Avg. finishing position of A: 3.5
Avg. finishing position of C: 3.5 too (Because the other top driver teammate B would tail A all the time or immediately precede A all the time. C could only finish ahead of them both. A and B finish 3 and 4, and, 4 and 3 respectively. C once jumps them both to 2 and then falls behind to 5 in the next race. Or if he splits A-B to the detriment of B, then you can imagine he would split to be detriment of A also the same way since A and B are so closely matched and the same position difference would exist.
Avg. finishing position of B: 3.5 as well
So, it looks like the equal-status technically has no problem and it would boost the WCC chances tremendously. The points your teammate is taking off you are likely to be the same amount that he would take off your WDC rival from another team. If he does not take points off you, the chances are that he won't take points off your other team WDC rival either, that is unless of course you have a car that is so much better than others. In that case, you still shouldn't have a problem with your other team WDC rival because you anyway have a better car and you would still finish ahead of him even if your equal-status teammate finishes ahead of you. The biggest bonanza is your team might in fact have two shots at winning the WDC.

In other words, their chances of winning the WDC could arguably even double. Just look at Red Bull 2010. So, in theory there may not be any problem. It looks like the problem comes with ego and temper. A sees B beating and gets riled up, suspects team, gets mentally messed up and suffers a melt-down. So if you have two sensible composed drivers, this would work, and work great. So, it looks like rather than this being a problem of the system, this seems like a problem of personality/character.

The question is can we get two such balanced and composed drivers from the top echelon. It is normally difficult since lot of them seem to be egomaniacs and drama-queens. But, I don't want to blame the system as taking points-off-each-other, the fault is with character. I could think of 2007, 2010 as years WDCs were helped by equal-status in the team. I can't think of any championships lost recently because of points-taken-off-each-other when the drivers had remained in good terms with each other and have maintained composure.

To me, it looks like having the two strongest drivers possible is the best way to go about anything in F1. The only question is do we get two level-headed calm top drivers.

Edited by SpaMaster, 10 August 2013 - 20:48.


#2177 Vesuvius

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 20:54

What you say is true but I have always wondered if the WCC is as important as it is for the other team who have no chance at the WDC.
Is it better and more prestigious to have a WCC with not WDC or win the WDC and come second in the WCC?
If Webber keeps doing his job, scoring at least 70/75 points of Vettel's tally I don't think there is a chance Mercedes can win it. Part of Webber's low points is due to the team, you cannot blame it all on him since when it comes to his car and strategies he seems to always be behind vettel therefore the wcc, which is a team effort, cannot entirely be a consequence of the performance drivers.
In 2010 webber almost won the wdc ...I do believe that was his peak and now he is perhaps not as sharp but I have no reason to believe that a young talented driver coming in would be less good than Webber 2013 since I never rated Webber to be a top driver and he is on his way out ..


For Red Bull WCC is more important, it was said last year...it's where the money comes from to the team and bonuses to the workers.

Edited by Vesuvius, 10 August 2013 - 20:55.


#2178 SpaMaster

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 21:00

Sorry, I won't believe WCC is more important than WDC to any championship contending team. Some teams may consider WCC to be very important. But WDC is THE prize in F1. Red Bull employees' salary may have be structured around WCC, but let's not forget what the main purpose is. If there is no WDC championship, most of us would note even watch F1 and F1 would not be what it is. The salary may be some sort of performance relation of WCC, but the main business is something else. In that case, for the employees' WCC may be more important in terms of their salary and bonus, but for the organization the whole business is about WDC. That is THE championship.

Edited by SpaMaster, 10 August 2013 - 21:01.


#2179 Vesuvius

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 21:08

Sorry, I won't believe WCC is more important than WDC to any championship contending team. Some teams may consider WCC to be very important. But WDC is THE prize in F1. Red Bull employees' salary may have be structured around WCC, but let's not forget what the main purpose is. If there is no WDC championship, most of us would note even watch F1 and F1 would not be what it is. The salary may be some sort of performance relation of WCC, but the main business is something else. In that case, for the employees' WCC may be more important in terms of their salary and bonus, but for the organization the whole business is about WDC. That is THE championship.


You believe that all you want but for the teams this is all about money and WCC....WDC is the prize of F1 for the fans. Teams get money fom WCC not from WDC, of course WDC is also important and everyone wants to win it but WCC is still the most important for the teams.

Edited by Vesuvius, 10 August 2013 - 21:10.


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#2180 discover23

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 21:09

That won't work ..too much analysis when you can simply deduce that with the gap difference between 1st and 2nd it will be much more efficient for the wdc to have one driver always going for the max 25 point per race then it is having two driver fighting it out at every race.
Is a fans dream to have a prost/senna situation every year but in reality when you have other teams also with a shot at the wdc this strategy presents a risk .

#2181 Cyanide

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 21:25

Sorry, I won't believe WCC is more important than WDC to any championship contending team. Some teams may consider WCC to be very important. But WDC is THE prize in F1. Red Bull employees' salary may have be structured around WCC, but let's not forget what the main purpose is. If there is no WDC championship, most of us would note even watch F1 and F1 would not be what it is. The salary may be some sort of performance relation of WCC, but the main business is something else. In that case, for the employees' WCC may be more important in terms of their salary and bonus, but for the organization the whole business is about WDC. That is THE championship.


I'm sorry but that's a bit over the top. While I agree that for fans and for the media the WDC is the main highlight, the WCC is just as important, if not more. Just because the grand spectacle is about the drivers' title, doesn't mean that Formula 1 is ALL about that. A team's financing also comes from the huge amount of cash they receive based on their position in the constructors' championship. I read somewhere that the 3rd spot grants you somewhere around 90 million.

Plus, you hear a lot of teams stressing about the WCC every year. Ferrari in 2009 were hoping to salvage that 3rd spot, but were beaten by McLaren, and the morals weren't exactly high after that. Same with Caterham and Marussia - the team that ends up on top of the other might be the only one to survive and make it through to 2014, based on the amount of money they get. Williams are also in terror for scoring only a single point for the TEAM (not for whichever driver).

You really think that if the WCC wasn't important big teams would still fire average performing drivers? They had Kovalainen at McLaren for 2 years - they fired him because he wasn't scoring enough points for what? For the WCC, which McLaren lost to Ferrari in 2008. Or that if the WCC wasn't important to Ferrari they would even consider threatening Massa to score more points or hit the road?

Red Bull know they can win the WDC with Vettel, but that's obviously not enough. It's their goal now to establish a certain prestige and they can achieve that with the WCC to their name too.

Edited by Cyanide, 10 August 2013 - 21:26.


#2182 ausf1webber

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 22:00

Comparing vs with dr at Toro Rossi seems to be the constant when down rating Daniel. Why not look at how Alonso and Kimi performed prior to them gaining a top seat. Maybe throw in ms as well, did Alonso win a race or podium in the Minardi, I bet most of you took very little notice of Alonso prior if your honest.
So what do you think will be the result if dr puts his car on poll or above sv consistently, maybe SV will be the one to crack, who really knows?

Edited by ausf1webber, 10 August 2013 - 22:02.


#2183 SpaMaster

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 22:04

You believe that all you want but for the teams this is all about money and WCC....WDC is the prize of F1 for the fans. Teams get money fom WCC not from WDC, of course WDC is also important and everyone wants to win it but WCC is still the most important for the teams.

WDC is also money for teams. Much more money than you can imagine from WCC. WCC money is only relating to FOM prize money. What about the sponsor money, individual marketing money, PR related value? WDC has no match in that regard. WCC does not meet the whole budget of a top team in F1. The overall FOM WCC prize money available for all teams combined is about $500 million. The individual budget alone of a top team amounts to $250-350 million. Roughly at least more than 50% of a top team's budget comes outside of WCC money. So, WDC brings in a lot of money as well, arguably more money than WCC.

In a way, WDC is a gold mine. Only one team can get it. WCC may be more important for teams that have no chance at WDC. But if you have a chance at WDC, the WDC title would bring you lot more money than $40-60 million gap you can have in FOM WCC money over the P2 team. Just post your WDC driver stills on a few ads, products, news items, send him over to few sponsor events, see how much money it yields over the extra WCC money you get for place shift in WCC ranking. Your WDC is the brand ambassador of F1. He and your team would be splashed all over the world and you would be the headliner maker for much of the season-break and most of the next season. Think of the notice, ad and attention it creates. Everything a sponsor would love.

That won't work ..too much analysis when you can simply deduce that with the gap difference between 1st and 2nd it will be much more efficient for the wdc to have one driver always going for the max 25 point per race then it is having two driver fighting it out at every race.
Is a fans dream to have a prost/senna situation every year but in reality when you have other teams also with a shot at the wdc this strategy presents a risk .

The average position of WDC winners is about P3. It is true winning gives more points. But if your average position is P3, the gains of winning are not that significant. If I account 6 wins for the WDC winning driver, the following would be the situation.
C: 6xP1, 3xP2, 9xP4, 2xP6
A: 3xP1, 6xP2, 7xP3, 4xP6
A: 3xP1, 6xP2, 7xP3, 4xP6
(Avg. position 3 for all three drivers over 20 races)
Points: A: 328; B:321; C: 321
7 pts is nothing and very easily prone to chance. About 2% margin. It turns out like this because the higher end of finishing positions are still somewhat exponential. As much as you gain more by finishing P1, you also stand to lose more proportionately when you finish P4 and P5 and the other teammates finish P2 and P3. The perceived risk is more of ego-related than just system-related.

Edited by SpaMaster, 10 August 2013 - 22:12.


#2184 st99

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 00:16

Interesting quote from Horner when announcing Vettel in 2008.

"As he was already part of the Red Bull family, choosing Sebastian as Mark Webber's team-mate was not a difficult decision. However, we have always stated that our aim is to have the strongest available driver line-up and Vettel's selection also matches these criteria."




#2185 bourbon

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 00:31

DR does not need to be the next vettel. He is replacing webber, RB already have their #1 driver who is doing a great job.


DR is not at Webber's level though.

#2186 Thomas99

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 01:45

And had Macca trying to get him as well. These are examples of Sebastian being more 'obviously impressive' and the last time Red Bull made a seat choice no one was doing much second guessing - for that reason and because they were a midfield team at the time and nobody cared. In fact, some were suggesting RBR was going to hold Seb back.

When the Toro Rosso and Red Bull ran identical cars Seb moving to Red Bull didn't really mean much.

#2187 Thomas99

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 01:45

Interesting quote from Horner when announcing Vettel in 2008.

No offense to Sebastian, as now he has clearly earnt his wings. But a mostly unproven driver and Mark Webber is the strongest possible lineup?

#2188 discover23

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 01:57

DR is not at Webber's level though.

How do you know -- ? kovalainen was a highly rated prospect before joining macca and he failed miserably.. No one really knows really .. The only way to find out is to pair him against vettel .

Edited by discover23, 11 August 2013 - 01:58.


#2189 bourbon

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 03:47

How do you know -- ? kovalainen was a highly rated prospect before joining macca and he failed miserably..


Not by me.

No one really knows really ..


I do.

The only way to find out is to pair him against vettel .


Well I respect your opinion if that is what you need to see. But I don't need to see that. He has a ways to go to reach Webber's level which is an accumulation of many years of experience. Dan may short cut it into a short time period, but as of yet, he hasn't even raced in a top car once, how is he possibly at Webber's level?

But I don't see why it matters since DR is on RBR's short list. If KR doesn't get the seat, DR presumably will...

Edited by bourbon, 11 August 2013 - 03:47.


#2190 Hayden1

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 05:36

this thread is a pure madness...........

Edited by Hayden1, 11 August 2013 - 11:34.


#2191 SpaMaster

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 08:10

No offense to Sebastian, as now he has clearly earnt his wings. But a mostly unproven driver and Mark Webber is the strongest possible lineup?

For them, yes. Given the team's standing and the driver availability, it may be the strongest "available" line-up.

Edited by SpaMaster, 11 August 2013 - 08:15.


#2192 joshb

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 08:27

No offense to Sebastian, as now he has clearly earnt his wings. But a mostly unproven driver and Mark Webber is the strongest possible lineup?


Turned out well though- 2nd most successful partnership ever, behind Schumacher/Barrichello


#2193 Thomas99

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 11:17

Well I respect your opinion if that is what you need to see. But I don't need to see that. He has a ways to go to reach Webber's level which is an accumulation of many years of experience. Dan may short cut it into a short time period, but as of yet, he hasn't even raced in a top car once, how is he possibly at Webber's level?

But I don't see why it matters since DR is on RBR's short list. If KR doesn't get the seat, DR presumably will...

Ricciardo is extremely fast in quali and races very cleanly. He is fast over a race distance too..

It wouldnt surprise me at all if Ricciardo is faster over one lap than Vettel.

#2194 v@sh

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 11:29

Well I respect your opinion if that is what you need to see. But I don't need to see that. He has a ways to go to reach Webber's level which is an accumulation of many years of experience. Dan may short cut it into a short time period, but as of yet, he hasn't even raced in a top car once, how is he possibly at Webber's level?


And how exactly do you expect him to race in a top car when DR (and many other drivers in the midfield) will never get then get the chance in the first place with the cars they drive?

You keep talking about experience, yet RBR like to discard after 2 years if you don't cut the mustard, so how are you expected to gain many years of experience when you have that on your back let alone manage to get in a top car?

As to Alonso (poster above), he was impressive in the Minardi qualifying the car where it didn't belong as well as in races numerous times. The same was with Webber and he moved up the ladder the traditional way, one of the few drivers that have gone that route. These days it's more about sponsorship.

Edited by v@sh, 11 August 2013 - 11:30.


#2195 olliek88

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 11:36

Well I respect your opinion if that is what you need to see. But I don't need to see that. He has a ways to go to reach Webber's level which is an accumulation of many years of experience. Dan may short cut it into a short time period, but as of yet, he hasn't even raced in a top car once, how is he possibly at Webber's level?

But I don't see why it matters since DR is on RBR's short list. If KR doesn't get the seat, DR presumably will...


Exactly, its impossible to know for sure wether or not he is a top class driver or just a good driver until he's sat in a competitive car against a competitive team mate. You can't judge him either way, you can't say "Oh he's not on X, Y or Zs level because he's not raced in a top car".

Nobody knows where he stacks up with any certainty, its pure conjecture to say he can't possibly be at Webber's lever and visa versa.

#2196 JHSingo

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 15:13

how do you compare the 2008 Torro Rosso to the 2013 Torro Rosso with a straight face? I mean come on...


Well said. In fact, that year's Toro Rosso was, ironically, actually better than the Red Bull thanks to its engine. Didn't Toro Rosso finish ahead of Red Bull in the WCC that year?

'Nuff said...

#2197 UPRC

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 15:36

he hasn't even raced in a top car once, how is he possibly at Webber's level?


That Lewis Hamilton guy turned out pretty well, eh?

#2198 beute

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 15:48

Well said. In fact, that year's Toro Rosso was, ironically, actually better than the Red Bull thanks to its engine. Didn't Toro Rosso finish ahead of Red Bull in the WCC that year?

'Nuff said...


no...
it's not that simple..

people see torro rosso outscoring RBR with the same chassis, so they assume the thing that makes them go faster is the different engine.
but if it's that simple then why wasnt Torro Rosso anywhere near the front in 2009? they still had the Red bull chassis and the apparently faster engine, how come they ended up where they ended up while vettel won 4 times?

#2199 BillBald

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 16:24

no...
it's not that simple..

people see torro rosso outscoring RBR with the same chassis, so they assume the thing that makes them go faster is the different engine.
but if it's that simple then why wasnt Torro Rosso anywhere near the front in 2009? they still had the Red bull chassis and the apparently faster engine, how come they ended up where they ended up while vettel won 4 times?


Maybe Newey was told to spend less time on the STR version for 2009 ?

Or maybe it's Vettel who made the difference - perhaps you should make a thread about it...




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#2200 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 16:53

no...
it's not that simple..

people see torro rosso outscoring RBR with the same chassis, so they assume the thing that makes them go faster is the different engine.
but if it's that simple then why wasnt Torro Rosso anywhere near the front in 2009? they still had the Red bull chassis and the apparently faster engine, how come they ended up where they ended up while vettel won 4 times?

Wasn't Renault allowed to finetune their engines for 2009 to make it more equal to Mercedes and Ferrari?