70 replies to this topic

[Atreiu]

So, Edd Straw gave Webber the best of the nearly-men title.
http://plus.autospor...-the-nearlymen/


Do you agree?

For the sake of not making a poll with dozens of options, I limited it to those who had serious WDC runs recently (2003 hit my date limit). But feel free to add to the list.

[Longtimefan]

Massa, if it wasn't for Glock giving Lewis a freebie, Felipe would be World Champion.

[Currahee]

Massa, if it wasn't for Glock giving Lewis a freebie, Felipe would be World Champion.

I'm no Hamilton fan but how did Glock give him a freebie?

[Zava]

Massa, if it wasn't for Glock giving Lewis a freebie, Felipe would be World Champion.

that dumb argument still exists? Glock was no help of Hamilton, actually he worked against him with staying out on dry tyres when it started raining.

I voted Kubica. ( )

[Longtimefan]

I'm no Hamilton fan but how did Glock give him a freebie?

Even in the damp and on wrong tyres. losing over 30 secs in one lap? Seems a little much unless he spin but thats off topic I guess, anyway my vote is Felipe and no I'm not a fan of his

[MikeV1987]

Kubica. Before his crash, I thought for sure he was going to be a WDC someday.

[Juggles]

Kubica is the best on that list but he isn't a "nearly-man" in the same sense as the others. There's no reason to think Kubica couldn't have delivered the title in a WDC capable car, something the others all failed to do (not sure about Montoya).

[Kingshark]

Felipe Massa of 2008 is the best driver on that list, there is not a shadow of doubt for me.

I'm also not sure on how people can call Kubica a nearly-man.

Edited by Kingshark, 27 June 2013 - 21:06.

[Velocifer]

Definitely Kubica.

[P123]

Even in the damp and on wrong tyres. losing over 30 secs in one lap? Seems a little much unless he spin but thats off topic I guess, anyway my vote is Felipe and no I'm not a fan of his

Glock did an identical laptime to his teammate Trulli, who was on the same tyres. Does this really need pointing out after all this time?

But Massa is a good shout as he has come closer to becoming WDC than any of the others.

[discover23]

between Montoya and Kubica..

[Mauseri]

I don't think 4th or 3rd is nearly, except in case it's only a couple of points from WDC.

I'd give it for Webber, because the question was who is best of them. And Kubica wasn't near enough to be one of them.

[Garagiste]

Not inside your date limit, but I'd give the nod to HHF in 99.

[Currahee]

Even in the damp and on wrong tyres. losing over 30 secs in one lap? Seems a little much unless he spin but thats off topic I guess, anyway my vote is Felipe and no I'm not a fan of his

Has this not been discussed a million times?

Glock was on the wrong tyres. It happens.

Didn't Glock and Trulli do identical times?

[Disgrace]

There are many ways to argue this, but if we're talking about the specific years stated then I would argue Montoya. Compared to the others, the points he lost were attribuable more to technical failure (two wins, plus being taken out another time) than driver error. I would disregard Kubica and Rubens from this methodology because they weren't serious contenders.

If Kubica is on this list, I think Frentzen would be an equally valid inclusion given the similarities of their "title challenge" season.

[Juggles]

Felipe Massa of 2008 is the best driver on that list, there is not a shadow of doubt for me.

I'm also not sure on how people can call Kubica a nearly-man.

To this day I remain undecided on whether Massa 08 spec was a top driver or whether the Ferrari was just that good combined with Raikkonen having a bad season.

[oldracer1957]

OTHER: Nick Heidfeld

[TheThirdTenor1]

OTHER: Nick Heidfeld

when did Heidfeld get close to getting a title?

[Mauseri]

To this day I remain undecided on whether Massa 08 spec was a top driver or whether the Ferrari was just that good combined with Raikkonen having a bad season.

Kimi started the year well, but then lost a loads of easy points outside of his or even the teams control. And also under his own control when it started to slip away. But there was a clear lack of speed at one stage too. It was asuumed the team was favoring Massa and/or wanted to replace Kimi with Alonso.

Edited by Mauseri, 27 June 2013 - 21:26.

[RealRacing]

Alonso 2010, 2012...

[TheThirdTenor1]

Alonso 2010, 2012...

I don't think Alonso qualifies for this thread because he won the WDC twice already.

[discover23]

Kimi started the year well, but then lost a loads of easy points outside of his or even the teams control. And also under his own control when it started to slip away. But there was a clear lack of speed at one stage too.

when he started the year well, he was on par with Massa.. just like in 2007 where they were almost neck and neck... so the question is, was Kimi really on top of his game during this time or was Massa really that good.. Food for thought.

[RealRacing]

I don't think Alonso qualifies for this thread because he won the WDC twice already.

I know. Ferrari nearly-man then?

[Kingshark]

This might be an unpopular opinion for some, but I still believe that Massa was the more deserving 2008 champion. He lost easy wins in Hungary and Singapore due accidents out of his control, and while Hamilton also had some bad luck, the majority of points he lost were his own mistakes, most notably Canada and France. For granted, Lewis deserved the '08 WDC, but IMO had Felipe won it, he would have deserved it more.

I also believe that if we take bad luck into account, even in 2007 Massa would've either won or came very close to the WDC as well. His team and car cost him far more points than Kimi/Lewis/Nando did that year, that includes a whole bunch of points lost in Australia, Canada, Britain, Hungary, and Italy due no fault of his own. Plus he let his teammate win in Brazil. That's over 20 points lost right there, and he only finished 16 points behind Kimi at the end of the year.

To put a long story short, from that poll, 2007-08 Massa is easily the best driver out of the group.

Edited by Kingshark, 27 June 2013 - 21:33.

[Currahee]

what about DC?

[RealRacing]

what about DC?

This

DC...

[senna da silva]

Stirling Moss?
Gilles Villeneuve?
Ronnie Peterson?
........etc?

Edited by senna da silva, 27 June 2013 - 21:49.

[garoidb]

Stirling Moss?
Gilles Villeneuve?
Ronnie Peterson?
........etc?

Not contemporary's of Webber.

[travbrad]

For me it has to be Kubica. Where other drivers made lots of errors, he was fast and consistent throughout the season. He just didn't have the car to win the championship. All of those errors by the main championship contenders is the only reason he was anywhere close with the car he had.

Edited by travbrad, 27 June 2013 - 22:11.

[Skinnyguy]

Kubica 2008. And easily.

Only performance on the list actually deserving the man of the season tag. He did a better job than anyone else that year.

[senna da silva]

Not contemporary's of Webber.

Didn't see that as a criteria.

[Meanbeakin]

Webber or Massa. I'm more inclined to say Massa as his chance slipped away through no fault of his own (Hungary mechanical failure and Singapore pitcrew stuff up) whereas Webber's slipped away through driver error (At Korea) although had Red Bull pitted him one lap earlier in Australia he probably would've won that race (And hence the championship).

[Realyn]

Massa, if it wasn't for Glock giving Lewis a freebie, Felipe would be World Champion.

I wonder how someone with 2k posts can forget that Glock only was ahead because of a risky tyre gamble.

[Nobody]

Bobby K

[Rob G]

Stirling Moss?
Gilles Villeneuve?
Ronnie Peterson?
........etc?

I'm also feeling free to add to the list. Moss would be my overall choice, but Peter Collins deserves a mention because he would have won the championship in 1956 if it weren't for his generosity in giving Fangio his car.

[Jimisgod]

Kubica, because I can assure you he would have won it one day had he not gone rallying...

[garoidb]

Didn't see that as a criteria.

It is the context of the article.

[ApexOversteer]

Moss, Villeneuve, Peterson, Bellof(Maybe??) & Kubica

[Darren1]

Moss, Peterson, Villeneuve, Coulthard, Berger, McLaren, Ickx, Von Tripps, etc etc etc should be on that list if JPM, Rubens etc are on it,

[maverick69]

Maybe he should have made the title "Best of the Modern Nearly Men" for the reasons that many have pointed out....... Moss, Gilles et al.....

Talent wise - Kubica all day long. I don't think that Webber would hold a candle to him. In fact, even though I quite like Webber - he has always reminded me of a guy who talked a good game rather than play a WDC winning good game.

Basically an average to good driver who did reasonably well when he got a decent car...... a bit like his mate DC......

<ducks>

[Buttoneer]

Kubica for me too - by quite a margin. 2010 was a close one for Webber but close is not the criteria, is it? I always thought that Webber had it in him to be a WDC, and I think he certainly showed that in fits and starts throughout his career, but Kubica completely embodied the focus and drive we expect in a champion. I remember the stories of how much weight he lost over the winter when KERS was introduced and his commitment to Renault in 2010 where he didn't put a foot wrong all through the season Ask Alonso and Hamilton what they think and I'm sure Kubica would win this vote. We are all a little poorer for the early end of his F1 career.

[robefc]

Webber had the best car in the field in 2010 (only vettel had a car as quick and his carried on breaking down) so unless I've missed lots of misfortune for Mark I don't see how he can be considered the best, much as I like him.

[MikeTekRacing]

sure Kubica made no mistakes but he also took advantage of the outsider position. He had no pressure on him to deliver....he finished 4th for heaven's sake he wasn't even close to winning it

[DampMongoose]

Moss must be the best driver without a Championship to his name...

Other than him, Brooks, Peterson, maybe von Trips, Icxx???

Edited by DampMongoose, 28 June 2013 - 13:46.

[BenettonB192]

Moss

[Alfisti]

For me it has to be Kubica. Where other drivers made lots of errors, he was fast and consistent throughout the season. He just didn't have the car to win the championship. All of those errors by the main championship contenders is the only reason he was anywhere close with the car he had.

Well, except he could never really shake off Heidfeld could he.

[Atreiu]

sure Kubica made no mistakes but he also took advantage of the outsider position. He had no pressure on him to deliver....he finished 4th for heaven's sake he wasn't even close to winning it

OTOH, literally dozens of drivers have been in his position, competitive but not WDC worth car, over the years but didn't have a season as impressive.
IIRC, he was in the hunt basically as long as Raikkonen was, give or take a race, but the difference between each car that year was clear. One was outright WCC/WDC capable, the other not.

[Atreiu]

Well, except he could never really shake off Heidfeld could he.

Heidfeld was very good, just didn't have any lucky breaks. Wasn't he overlook in Montoya's favour twice?

[SealTheDiffuser]

Massa!

[MikeTekRacing]

OTOH, literally dozens of drivers have been in his position, competitive but not WDC worth car, over the years but didn't have a season as impressive.
IIRC, he was in the hunt basically as long as Raikkonen was, give or take a race, but the difference between each car that year was clear. One was outright WCC/WDC capable, the other not.

the final standings were
ham 98
mas 97
raik 75
kub 75
alo 61
hei 60


Kubica's performance looks great compared to kimi's...but compared to heidfeld's......not THAT impressive.

the % gap between felipe and kimi is way bigger than that between kubica and heidfeld and kimi is at least theoretically a bit of a better driver