169 replies to this topic

[TomNokoe]

The rule is inherently flawed. The last thing on a drivers mind as they enter a yellow zone with a driver within DRS range is how much they should slow down. Its all about being the fastest of the slowers. I guess theres an argument that if they back off by 5-10mph then the likelihood of a spin is dramatically reduced because the car is under much more control.

[Bleu]

Can you tell more about the Prost incident? It kind of rings a bell but can't remember exactly

German GP 1993:

[Atreiu]

Can you tell more about the Prost incident? It kind of rings a bell but can't remember exactly

Hockenheim 1993. I dont exactly remember why, but he went off track and took the shortcut at the Ost chincane and was penalized. Then he climbed back to 2nd and won after Hill's tyre blew up.

Edited by Atreiu, 02 July 2013 - 14:48.

[oldracer1957]

Can you tell more about the Prost incident? It kind of rings a bell but can't remember exactly

Yes it was 1993 on the old Hockenheim Circut in Germany.
Martin Brundle spun off the track into the chicane. In order to avoid a collision, Alain Prost couldnt take the same chicane.
The stewards then decided to give him a stop-and-go penalty.

Edited by oldracer1957, 02 July 2013 - 15:36.

[redreni]

Well, nobody reduced speed significantly. Nobody lost more than a few tenths on that particular lap. Rosberg went a bit faster than normal because he had just pitted for new tyres.

They should hand out penalties for everybody then.

Yes, but if you are on fresh tyres you know you're going to set green or purple sectors unless you slow down (possibly even if you slow down) so you have to be prepared for the stewards to investigate. If you lift and still go purple or green, the telemetry will show that you lifted so although you may be investigated the decision will probably be "no further action".

I agree the use of sector times to judge these things is inconsistent. If you're on worn tyres you're not going to go green or purple so you can get away with it a bit more, although if for some reason the stewards investigated and found that you were just as quick as the lap before, and if you can't show from the telemetry that you slowed down significantly, you could still be penalised even if your overall sector time was rather slow. It's inconsistent and unfair. But that doesn't justify having an investigation to see if a driver has breached the yellow flag regulations, finding that he has breached them, and giving him a slap on the wrist. That sends out the wrong message to every racing driver in every FIA-sanctioned racing series.

Whatever you do there will be inconsistencies. In DTM when yellow flags are out your sector time must be at least 0.5s slower than the most recent time you posted for that sector before the yellow came out. So if you are on worn standard tyres, and perhaps mke a small mistake in sector 2, then pit for fresh options, you might find that you are able to post a sector 2 time on your outlap that's 3 odd seconds faster than on the previous lap. But the 0.5s rule means you have to back off to the tune of 3.5s to stay within the regulations. It also means you might have to lose up to 3 seconds to a rival who pitted a lap earlier than you, because his comparator sector time will have been set on fresh tyres and will be fast. So I think the DTM system is a bit inflexible, and the F1 system, where if you can demonstrate from the throttle and brake traces that you slowed significantly you'll be alright, is better. The only inconsistency in F1 is that whether or not the thing is investigated in the first place appears to be rather random.

And trust me, if I were the clerk of the course drivers would be required to slow down properly for waved yellows, and if they carried on doing what they currently do they would all have to tour the pitlane.

[thechin]

Umm, yes it very much is. The safety of everyone on the race track should certainly be the concern of the teams and drivers. I was responding to the fact that the top teams were unhappy with the penalty - do you think they would be unhappy if Rosberg was 15th?

The teams are concerned with winning the race. They have proven time and again they will push the limits of acceptability and safety in order to win. Of course they wouldn't intentionally endanger a marshall but is it their priority? No.

It is up to the governing body and the stewards to enforce the rules properly.

And do I think they would be unhappy if Rosberg was 15th? Not the top teams no, but maybe one of the smaller ones. But this is not the point - we shouldn't need the teams to police each other.

[Muz Bee]

As I said I'm surprised Nico got away with it. However on the matter of that rule, I think it's a pretty crude thing with the best of intentions. The fact is I don't recall EVER seeing someone slide off into the weeds, barriers let alone the marshalls under waved yellows. As I say it's been drafted that way to protect everyone other than marshalls. Marshalls are generally not authorised to go onto the tracks under yellows, only under SC. Safety rules and their interpretation have become somewhat PC and downright pedantic, this you would appreciate more if you are a regular visitor to the tracks rather than a TV viewer. Reds and SCs being pulled for the flimsiest of reasons driving everyone nuts is my biggest gripe in racing today, and I go to the track 20 times a year. 10+ years ago waved flags simply meant "no overtaking" and that seemed sufficient at the time.

As I said seems a bit strange not penalising the Silverstone winner. Maybe it was a case of not wanting to taint the entire day in an era of greater leniency than the previous administration.

Edited by Muz Bee, 03 July 2013 - 04:00.

[alfa1]

As I said I'm surprised Nico got away with it. However on the matter of that rule, I think it's a pretty crude thing with the best of intentions. The fact is I don't recall EVER seeing someone slide off into the weeds, barriers let alone the marshalls under waved yellows.

Nick Heidfeld crashing into the medical car doesnt count?

[Diablobb81]

Alonso, or am i missing something?

Edited by Diablobb81, 03 July 2013 - 05:16.

[Gyno]

Maldonado ignoring RED flags.

[Cool Beans]

Maldonado ignoring RED flags.

No fancy video of this but Maldonado also crippled a marshall under yellows at Monaco.

Edited by Cool Beans, 03 July 2013 - 07:52.

[TimRTC]

The alternative to these slightly inconsistent stewards decisions, is a DTM style system where drivers have very strict delta targets when there are yellow flags displayed and even a few tenths over in a sector leads to an automatic penalty. As a result Gary Paffett has already lost one podium place, although at least the new third place man was able to take the podium for the celebrations - there is nothing worse for a series than to have post-race podium changes, it just looks poorly organised.

[g1n]

Maldonado ignoring RED flags.

Maldonado is the yellow car you see in the first second driving through the shot....

[Andrew Hope]

Maldonado ignoring RED flags.

If you're going to post a video trying to show what an idiot Maldonado is, you would do better not posting a clip where he is the only driver not crashing.

Edited by Andrew Hope, 03 July 2013 - 10:56.

[redreni]

As I said I'm surprised Nico got away with it. However on the matter of that rule, I think it's a pretty crude thing with the best of intentions. The fact is I don't recall EVER seeing someone slide off into the weeds, barriers let alone the marshalls under waved yellows. As I say it's been drafted that way to protect everyone other than marshalls. Marshalls are generally not authorised to go onto the tracks under yellows, only under SC. Safety rules and their interpretation have become somewhat PC and downright pedantic, this you would appreciate more if you are a regular visitor to the tracks rather than a TV viewer. Reds and SCs being pulled for the flimsiest of reasons driving everyone nuts is my biggest gripe in racing today, and I go to the track 20 times a year. 10+ years ago waved flags simply meant "no overtaking" and that seemed sufficient at the time.

As I said seems a bit strange not penalising the Silverstone winner. Maybe it was a case of not wanting to taint the entire day in an era of greater leniency than the previous administration.

1. There is life outside F1 and, unfortunately, marshalls are gettig hit or narrowly missed all the time. F1 stewarding is particularly important, though, because of the trickle-down effect. It sets an example not only to drivers but also to stewards and clerks of the course lower down.

2. "somewhat PC"? You seem to have confused political correctness with health and safety. You may not approve of either, but that doesn't make them the same thing.

3. I actually agree that safety cars are over-used, and I think that's part of the reason double-waved yellows are not taken seriously. When Vettel stopped on the old pit straight on Sunday, they were straight in with double-waved yellows even though the car was so far off line that, 20 years ago, they'd have just left it there until the end of the race and carried on. But what it does is it gets the drivers used to the idea that a double-waved yellow doesn't mean much. Then to make matters worse they bring out the safety car even though, when the marshalls got to the car, it turned out it wasn't in gear so could be easily pushed away. If the drivers can't be trusted to drive down the old pit straight under waved yellows while the marshalls push a car through the gate in the pit wall, it's a sad state of affairs. Although to be fair to Charlie, in that instance he may have been thinking of the possibility of another tyre going pop at the wrong moment. But the general point stands; by using the SC for even quite minor things, it sends a signal to the drivers that a double-waved yellow doesn't mean anything. But even very serious accidents are initially, in the first few seconds after the crash, covered with waved yellows, and so it's a problem if those aren't respected.

[karne]

The fact is I don't recall EVER seeing someone slide off into the weeds, barriers let alone the marshalls under waved yellows. As I say it's been drafted that way to protect everyone other than marshalls.

Nurburgring 2007. There were double waved yellows at T1 because there were marshalls and a crane out rescuing cars and at least two cars slid off into that same gravel trap - one of them actually hit the crane IIRC.

[spacekid]

3. I actually agree that safety cars are over-used, and I think that's part of the reason double-waved yellows are not taken seriously. When Vettel stopped on the old pit straight on Sunday, they were straight in with double-waved yellows even though the car was so far off line that, 20 years ago, they'd have just left it there until the end of the race and carried on. But what it does is it gets the drivers used to the idea that a double-waved yellow doesn't mean much. Then to make matters worse they bring out the safety car even though, when the marshalls got to the car, it turned out it wasn't in gear so could be easily pushed away. If the drivers can't be trusted to drive down the old pit straight under waved yellows while the marshalls push a car through the gate in the pit wall, it's a sad state of affairs. Although to be fair to Charlie, in that instance he may have been thinking of the possibility of another tyre going pop at the wrong moment. But the general point stands; by using the SC for even quite minor things, it sends a signal to the drivers that a double-waved yellow doesn't mean anything. But even very serious accidents are initially, in the first few seconds after the crash, covered with waved yellows, and so it's a problem if those aren't respected.

I thought this about the SC for Sebs car too. In previous years that would have been considered a reasonable place to park. Well away from the racing line, and relativly straightforward to shift out of the way.

Its an interesting idea this approach might lead to drivers being desensitized to the idea of waved yellows meaning marshalls on the track.

[scheivlak]

I thought this about the SC for Sebs car too. In previous years that would have been considered a reasonable place to park.

In previous years a situation like this triggered a SC as well, like in Australia last year (Petrov).

[spacekid]

In previous years a situation like this triggered a SC as well, like in Australia last year (Petrov).

Sorry, I mean previous as in 10-15 years ago. Honestly, a car parked there would not have been considered a problem at all. Whether thats right or wrong I don't know, but I was surprised at the SC on this occaision.

[dau]

Nurburgring 2007. There were double waved yellows at T1 because there were marshalls and a crane out rescuing cars and at least two cars slid off into that same gravel trap - one of them actually hit the crane IIRC.

That was aquaplaning though, not them completely ignoring the flags.