93 replies to this topic

[Junky]

Jean Told has told Pirelli to be in Paris on Wednesday to propose solutions to the Sporting Working Group about the tyres issues in the British GP.

[midgrid]

Source

[study]

I'm not sure what they can work out quickly unless they have a bunch of 2012 tyres stored somewhere.

Whats the hardest tyres they have Hard, or do they have extra hard?

[fred54]

Apparently they will ask Pirelli to conduct tyre tests with current cars....oh wait that's already in their contract and they and a current team got a royal dressing down for doing it. My bad.

[Junky]

Source

Well I saw on a portuguese account Twitter. Anyway, thanks!

Edited by Junky, 30 June 2013 - 16:26.

[Dunder]

I suspect we will see mandated minimum tyre pressures and maximum cambers until a new construction can be introduced.

Sad but necessary.

[MortenF1]

Apparently they will ask Pirelli to conduct tyre tests with current cars....oh wait that's already in their contract and they and a current team got a royal dressing down for doing it. My bad.

[wrighty]

yay! about time they confronted the issue on a safety basis rather than letting one or two teams selfishly block any movement on this ridiculous issue!

[kimster89]

Is there anything they can do and it will get approval from Lotus, Force India and Ferrari?

[TomNokoe]

I suspect we will see mandated minimum tyre pressures and maximum cambers until a new construction can be introduced.

Sad but necessary.

Spa 2011 anyone.

[wrighty]

I'm not sure what they can work out quickly unless they have a bunch of 2012 tyres stored somewhere.

Whats the hardest tyres they have Hard, or do they have extra hard?

its not a compound issue, it's a construction issue - the current tyres they have might all actually be junk (or to put it another way there's a load of overtime to be had in July at the factory! lol)

[sharo]

Is there anything they can do and it will get approval from Lotus, Force India and Ferrari?

Enforce a change on safety grounds. No need for approval. If MM was still the president it would have been done already IMO.

[ExFlagMan]

Simple solution, as Eddie Irvine once said - just replace the kerbs with concrete walls. After all we didn't see any tyre problems on Monaco or Canada.

[Dunder]

Is there anything they can do and it will get approval from Lotus, Force India and Ferrari?

The FIA can force through a change if it is for the sake of safety.

[Mr.Wayne]

Simple solution, as Eddie Irvine once said - just replace the kerbs with concrete walls. After all we didn't see any tyre problems on Monaco or Canada.

yeah... quite practical!
Seriously though, a proposal was brought forward in Canada, which was blocked by Force India, Ferrari and Lotus. Ignore them and enforce it given that, quite obviously, those tyres are a serious accident waiting to happen...


If not, then just wait until they arrive to Spa, or Monza! Pirelli will surely love the stress of the intense high-speed corners in there!

[EvanRainer]

Safety? Lets remember what's really important here, making sure Red Bull doesn't run away with it.

[Darrenj]

there is a race next weekend already isn't there? Lets hope the it has lower, less caustic curbs, thats all, The fault is the track.

[turssi]

@Mr.Wayne: Yeah, this time around it will be for safety reasons, so the teams will not need to be consulted.

[study]

there is a race next weekend already isn't there? Lets hope the it has lower, less caustic curbs, thats all, The fault is the track.

How do you know that, even Pirelli don't.

What team do you support?

[midgrid]

Is there anything they can do and it will get approval from Lotus, Force India and Ferrari?

The FIA does not need unanimous (or indeed any) approval if it makes changes on safety grounds, e.g. the series of measures that were introduced in 1994-6 after Senna and Ratzenberger's deaths.

[Ellios]

from the BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/23118249

may have been posted elsewhere

[Disgrace]

The FIA initiative to introduce excitement via degrading tyres is a complete failure. This emergency meeting is no less of a charade than that at the International Tribunal.

[P123]

It's just the FIA trying to be seen to be doing something. Pirelli's patience with them must be wearing thin.

[wrighty]

It's just the FIA trying to be seen to be doing something. Pirelli's patience with them must be wearing thin.

i suspect the feeling is mutual!

[Dunder]

there is a race next weekend already isn't there? Lets hope the it has lower, less caustic curbs, thats all, The fault is the track.

I am always pleased to see such informed 'analysis' on these boards. /sarcasm

Tyres get cut/damaged all the time due to debris, kerbs, other cars' sharp edges. When those cuts translate into 4 tyres disintegrating, something else is at play.

[redreni]

The situation remains that changes to the tyres are not allowed unless there is unanimous agreement or the FIA requires them on safety grounds, and judging by Di Resta and Raikkonnen's post-race interviews there are still at least a couple of teams who do not want the tyres to change. Raikkonnen blamed the kerbs, even though the kerbs haven't changed since last year but the tyres have.

That said, the tyres were the same in previous races and there were very few problems, so depending on the outcome of the investigation of the six failures from this weekend, it may turn out that the issue with these tyres will only occur at certain circuits and that if no action is taken, the problem won't recur in Germany. I think it's important not to over-react and only to do what will actually help to resolve the problem. The most drastic solution would be to revert to the 2012 tyres on the basis that they're proven, as suggested by Martin Whitmarsh, but I don't think the FIA would want to go beyond what is actually necessary to prevent this issue cropping up again.

So we're still in the same position as before, if changes are to be made to the tyres we need a strong statement from the FIA that it has agreed changes with Pirelli on safety grounds, that way agreement is not needed and the teams just have to accept it. Any changes that are agreed in Paris on Wednesday are unlikely to be available for next week, so I expect they'll just do whatever else they can to minimise the risks in terms of grinding down any problematic kerbs, agreeing to enforce Pirelli's set-up recommendations such as camber and pressure limits through the regulations (again on safety grounds so no agreement needed), etc.

[Fastcake]

The FIA initiative to introduce excitement via degrading tyres is a complete failure. This emergency meeting is no less of a charade than that at the International Tribunal.

The tyres of the past few years never had the punctures or delamination issues we've seen this season. Something needs to be looked at, as there's been a few too many incidents now that indicates it could be a tyre problem.

[Petroltorque]

Anyone remember the Public Enemy song '911 is a joke'. Substitute FIA in the title. Pirelli had provided a solution weeks ago for the tyre concerns. But Todt is seeking re-election so time to CYA withe a bit of misdirection.
In response to the suggestion that the track has not changed, the cars have. The are generating greater down force than last year and that has knock on effect on the tyres.

Edited by Petroltorque, 30 June 2013 - 17:04.

[Gilles4Ever]

It is all in the hands of the teams, the teams can do whatever they want if they all agree, they can change the Sporting regulations, they can have extra tests with 2013 cars, until they start agreeing, the FIA and Pirelli can do nothing without the safety card and even then they have to tread carefully so as not to upset the teams

[handel]

I am always pleased to see such informed 'analysis' on these boards. /sarcasm

Tyres get cut/damaged all the time due to debris, kerbs, other cars' sharp edges. When those cuts translate into 4s tyres disintegrating, something else is at play.

Can't accept that it's just debris seeing as all the failures were on the same tyre. It's either load, the kerbs or a combination thereof.

Feel a bit sorry for Pirelli but at the same time they should have stuck their big boy pants on much earlier and made sure there was provision for testing that wouldn't lead to uproar.

That said I quite liked the words from Hamilton although they seemed a tad misinformed. Nothing happened becaus.e the teams could not agree. In cases like this it should have instantly gone to the FIA for a ruling.

[sergeym]

Anyone remember the Public Enemy song '911 is a joke'. Substitute FIA in the title. Pirelli had provided a solution weeks ago for the tyre concerns. But Todt is seeking re-election so time to CYA withe a bit of misdirection.

Teams turned Pirelli solution down because everybody cared only about how much advantage could be gained using this situation. No its safety issue and Pirelli should be able to fix tyres without teams interference.

[ExFlagMan]

The tyres of the past few years never had the punctures or delamination issues we've seen this season. Something needs to be looked at, as there's been a few too many incidents now that indicates it could be a tyre problem.

Not sure how it can just be a tyre makers problem if several cars come into the pits with cuts on the inner sidewalls of the tyres. There has to be something causing the cuts. It's not as if these tyres have been laying around in a garden shed for the last 30 years and the rubber has deteriorated.

There obviously is an unforeseen problem with the latest construction, (better? glue), causing any tyre failure started by cuts resulting in the whole tyre carcase coming away from the sidewalls rather than just the tread ply delaminating as earlier in the season. I think the earlier failure mode was preferable to the current mode but others will no doubt disagree.

[kimster89]

If FIA enforce the change of tyres in safety basis, how will pirreli proof to Lotus, Force India and Ferrari that perfomance of the tyres was not altered and that only safety si better?

[EvanRainer]

The tyres of the past few years never had the punctures or delamination issues we've seen this season. Something needs to be looked at, as there's been a few too many incidents now that indicates it could be a tyre problem.

You see, normally, the tyre manufacturer does not make construction changes to try and hinder certain teams and help others.

[shonguiz]

What a ******* buch of amateurs, the solution was already there pirelli wanted to do it, Mercedes & RBR of course opportunately pushed for it but Ferrari & didn't want to, now Massa is even considering a German GP probe.

[Dunder]

Can't accept that it's just debris seeing as all the failures were on the same tyre. It's either load, the kerbs or a combination thereof.

Feel a bit sorry for Pirelli but at the same time they should have stuck their big boy pants on much earlier and made sure there was provision for testing that wouldn't lead to uproar.

That said I quite liked the words from Hamilton although they seemed a tad misinformed. Nothing happened becaus.e the teams could not agree. In cases like this it should have instantly gone to the FIA for a ruling.

Of course it's a combination of things. A tyre being cut by a kerb (or anything else) under heavy lateral loads exacerbated by high negative cambers and low pressures which increase stress in the area of failure.

My point was that no matter what the cause of the initial damage was (it happens quite often), the other factors which caused the tyre to disintegrate need to be addressed.

[redreni]

If FIA enforce the change of tyres in safety basis, how will pirreli proof to Lotus, Force India and Ferrari that perfomance of the tyres was not altered and that only safety si better?

They won't. They don't have to. If Force India or Lotus are unhappy, they can always withdraw from the championship.

[sergeym]

If FIA enforce the change of tyres in safety basis, how will pirreli proof to Lotus, Force India and Ferrari that perfomance of the tyres was not altered and that only safety si better?

Safety outweighs other considerations. If other tyre parameters change that cannot be helped.

[ZooL]

The FIA are looking VERY incompetent again. They've gone from warning Pirelli to not change the tyres, despite Pirelli's advice, and are now setting up an extraordinary meeting to make Pirelli do something?!

What a U- turn by the shambolic FIA.

[FastnLoud]

It is all in the hands of the teams, the teams can do whatever they want if they all agree, they can change the Sporting regulations, they can have extra tests with 2013 cars, until they start agreeing, the FIA and Pirelli can do nothing without the safety card and even then they have to tread carefully so as not to upset the teams

Forget upsetting certain teams, they have to make a change and they will because you can't have tyres exploding and shooting into the helmet of an oncoming car at 150mph + like you saw today with Kimi.

Talking about drivers safety here, not treading carefully to try and not upset teams because they think they may lose some performance.

[redreni]

What a ******* buch of amateurs, the solution was already there pirelli wanted to do it, Mercedes & RBR of course opportunately pushed for it but Ferrari & didn't want to, now Massa is even considering a German GP probe.

If Pirelli wanted to do it they could have tried the following approach:

Letter to all teams: we want to implement the following changes to the contruction of the tyres to ensure we don't keep having failures, but we don't want to make the FIA play the safety card because it doesn't look good, so can we have your agreement to make the changes?

If that didn't work, another letter to all teams: We are very concerned about the possibility of further tyre failures and we are determined to make these changes. We would be willing to go the FIA route if necessary and bring in these changes without agreement, but we would prefer to do it with agreement if we can?

If that still didn't work, they should have just gone to the FIA and said "look, there's a safety issue with these tyres, we need to do x to address it, can we have approval?"

There is no way that approach would have been blocked by the teams and FIA. Even if they ended up having to make a public admission that their tyres were potentially unsafe, that would have been nowhere near as bad for their reputation as what has happened today. Realistically they are lucky nobody was injured. They can't blame a lack of agreement from the teams when agreement to make changes on safety grounds is not required. The teams are never likely to agree when they have their own competitive interests to look after. Lotus and Force India would have done a disservice to themselves and their backers if they had agreed. Pirelli were saying at the time that there was no safety issue with their tyres, so you can't accuse those teams of acting irresponsibly by witholding their agreement. This is entirely Pirelli's fault.

[Fastcake]

Not sure how it can just be a tyre makers problem if several cars come into the pits with cuts on the inner sidewalls of the tyres. There has to be something causing the cuts. It's not as if these tyres have been laying around in a garden shed for the last 30 years and the rubber has deteriorated.

There obviously is an unforeseen problem with the latest construction, (better? glue), causing any tyre failure started by cuts resulting in the whole tyre carcase coming away from the sidewalls rather than just the tread ply delaminating as earlier in the season. I think the earlier failure mode was preferable to the current mode but others will no doubt disagree.

Of course, but we've seen more tyre incidents this year than the previous two. Pirelli still needs to seriously look at this season's tyres, if only to rule a potential problem out.

You see, normally, the tyre manufacturer does not make construction changes to try and hinder certain teams and help others.

Edited by Fastcake, 30 June 2013 - 17:26.

[ZooL]

If Pirelli wanted to do it they could have tried the following approach:

Letter to all teams: we want to implement the following changes to the contruction of the tyres to ensure we don't keep having failures, but we don't want to make the FIA play the safety card because it doesn't look good, so can we have your agreement to make the changes?

If that didn't work, another letter to all teams: We are very concerned about the possibility of further tyre failures and we are determined to make these changes. We would be willing to go the FIA route if necessary and bring in these changes without agreement, but we would prefer to do it with agreement if we can?

If that still didn't work, they should have just gone to the FIA and said "look, there's a safety issue with these tyres, we need to do x to address it, can we have approval?"

There is no way that approach would have been blocked by the teams and FIA. Even if they ended up having to make a public admission that their tyres were potentially unsafe, that would have been nowhere near as bad for their reputation as what has happened today. Realistically they are lucky nobody was injured. They can't blame a lack of agreement from the teams when agreement to make changes on safety grounds is not required. The teams are never likely to agree when they have their own competitive interests to look after. Lotus and Force India would have done a disservice to themselves and their backers if they had agreed. Pirelli were saying at the time that there was no safety issue with their tyres, so you can't accuse those teams of acting irresponsibly by witholding their agreement. This is entirely Pirelli's fault.

I read an article (from a Lawyerr's perspective) that said Pirelli under no circumstances would play the safety card because of liability and insurance reasons.

[Dunder]

The FIA are looking VERY incompetent again. They've gone from warning Pirelli to not change the tyres, despite Pirelli's advice, and are now setting up an extraordinary meeting to make Pirelli do something?!

What a U- turn by the shambolic FIA.

The previous failures were delaminations where the tyre stayed inflated and Pirelli stated clearly that the tyres were safe. It would have been quite a big step at that stage for the FIA to rule/state otherwise.

Today's failures involved the tyre completely disintegrating.

The sight of large chunks of tyre heading in the general direction of a following driver's head changes the situation somewhat.

[redreni]

The FIA are looking VERY incompetent again. They've gone from warning Pirelli to not change the tyres, despite Pirelli's advice, and are now setting up an extraordinary meeting to make Pirelli do something?!

What a U- turn by the shambolic FIA.

Nonsense, The FIA did no such thing. They said either there's a safety issue or their isn't, and if there isn't you must get unanimous agreement from the teams. Pirelli said there was no safety issue. Who's fault was that?

[ZooL]

The previous failures were delaminations where the tyre stayed inflated and Pirelli stated clearly that the tyres were safe. It would have been quite a big step at that stage for the FIA to rule/state otherwise.

Today's failures involved the tyre completely disintegrating.

The sight of large chunks of tyre heading in the general direction of a following driver's head changes the situation somewhat.

The same large chunks missing were there earlier in the season too, recall Hamilton's incidence that was so bad the tyre damaged the gearbox and they had to take a grid penalty.

[Sakae]

The same large chunks missing were there earlier in the season too, recall Hamilton's incidence that was so bad the tyre damaged the gearbox and they had to take a grid penalty.

This meeting is several weeks overdue IMO.

[shonguiz]

How is that Pirelli said there were no safety issue ? That was their sole argument to try to convince the anti change team and FIA that what they were doing wasn't because of RBR bitching

[redreni]

I read an article (from a Lawyerr's perspective) that said Pirelli under no circumstances would play the safety card because of liability and insurance reasons.

They could hardly be held liable for accidents that don't happen because they are prevented. They would have been much more likely to be held liable for injuries sustained today (and they're very lucky there were no injuries today) after they denied there was a safety issue with their tyres, thus blocking the proposed safety improvements.

If their insurance policy prevents them from taking remedial action in relation to faults with their product, it's a pretty bad insurance policy, don't you think? One would imagine the insurer would want to decrease rather than increase the risk of having to pay out, no?

[Crafty]

It is all in the hands of the teams, the teams can do whatever they want if they all agree, they can change the Sporting regulations, they can have extra tests with 2013 cars, until they start agreeing, the FIA and Pirelli can do nothing without the safety card and even then they have to tread carefully so as not to upset the teams

To an extent I agree, but theres the problem, they are far too concerned with keeping a perceived advantage or getting one over each other to actually sit down and sensibly work through the issues. They all have their own agenda.
FIA is meant to be ring master, so in this situation they need to tell the teams whats going to happen and make sure that whatever happens is fair to all teams. They are failing to do this. E.G. they have given their blessing to Ferrari to test a 2011 car that has 2013 wings and god knows what other bits.. isn't this pretty much what they just took Merc to a tribunal for ? Its stupid.

Pirelli for their part need to sort themselves out. Yes, what the FIA wanted from them is a bit dumb but I don't see why its not possible to make tyres to FIA spec and not have them explode/delaminate. They do need some co-operation to help test the tyres though.

To be honest the whole lot of them need their heads banging together.

Edited by Crafty, 30 June 2013 - 17:40.