65 replies to this topic

[Forma1]

Mercedes took two wins out of the last three races. This is after their secret test when nothing was secret, although load of safety guards protected the track and Lewis put on another helmet. On top of that they haven't learnt anthing they just wanted to listen to the stellar engine sound between two races.

[smitten]

Closed in 3.....2.....

[KiloWatt]

Yes they got advantage. No the hearing wasn't fair. After years of red bull and ferrari rule bending, do I have any ****cks left to give? Hell no. If anything, I'm disappointed it took them so long to get this creative. Suck it, is all I can say.

[toxicfusion]

While I love a good conspiracy, I think it's more coincidence than anything else.

[Szoelloe]

No,Yes, of course.
At the OP:
Running tyres that that are completely irrelevant to the current campaign does not cure your tyre woes, especially since it was not a Mercedes test as you still try to say. If anything, todays race has highlighted the stupidity of protesting a Pirelli development test, instead of going for it too, since it was made possible. No one has said they did not learn anything though, such a lamely manipulative poll question.

It was NOT the FIA.

Have fun.

[skc]

So the beauty of Mercedes getting FIA/Pirelli help is that there will be no excuses this time if Red Bull win the WDC.

[BoschKurve]

No,Yes, of course.
At the OP:
Running tyres that that are completely irrelevant to the current campaign does not cure your tyre woes, especially since it was not a Mercedes test as you still try to say. If anything, todays race has highlighted the stupidity of protesting a Pirelli development test, instead of going for it too, since it was made possible. No one has said they did not learn anything though, such a lamely manipulative poll question.

It was NOT the FIA.

Have fun.

How do we actually know the tires were not current tires? Because Pirelli and Mercedes claim that...? Is there any proof these weren't the current tires?

Even at that, it depends too on what Mercedes would have been looking to learn from the tires. Their woes were tied up with the rear suspension geometry, and it's obvious they've figured out how to redesign it ever since that tire test.

[fisssssi]

2x safety cars helped them win this race. I don't believe they are suddenly masters of tyre managements.

[scheivlak]

Stupid poll.

From its wording one would think that it's the FIA who formulated the Tribunal's verdict, which of course wasn't the case.

Edited by scheivlak, 30 June 2013 - 22:29.

[as65p]

No,Yes, of course.
At the OP:
Running tyres that that are completely irrelevant to the current campaign does not cure your tyre woes

Well, Hamilton in the post race BBC interview disagrees: "we did a tyre test to develope and improve the tyre and stop this from happening. And after that tyre test they [Pirelli] didn't do anything".

Can you tell me how they tried to develope and improve a tyre which, according to official propaganda, they weren't even running?

Not that it matters much, there are more pressing concerns right now, but that little slip reveals once and for all that MGP was b*llshitting everyone claiming they didn't run this years tyres.

[P123]

Well, Hamilton in the post race BBC interview disagrees: "we did a tyre test to develope and improve the tyre and stop this from happening. And after that tyre test they [Pirelli] didn't do anything".

Can you tell me how they tried to develope and improve a tyre which, according to official propaganda, they weren't even running?

Not that it matters much, there are more pressing concerns right now, but that little slip reveals once and for all that MGP was b*llshitting everyone claiming they didn't run this years tyres.

They ran the one that was to be tested on Friday in Canada, but never was, and was then vetoed by Lotus and Ferrari altogether. So nothing has been done, and Mercedes ran on tyres that will never be raced.

[SR388]

Yes and Yes.

[as65p]

They ran the one that was to be tested on Friday in Canada, but never was, and was then vetoed by Lotus and Ferrari altogether. So nothing has been done, and Mercedes ran on tyres that will never be raced.

Ah, okay, he could refer to that. If so, it obviously means nothing in relation to their 'private test'.

Then again, the phrasing "we did a tyre test to develope and improve the tyre" doesn't really sound like he's refering to 10 laps in Canada Friday practice, or does it?

[Nomore]

in small words,

Mercedes out- cheat everyone

[P123]

Ah, okay, he could refer to that. If so, it obviously means nothing in relation to their 'private test'.

Then again, the phrasing "we did a tyre test to develope and improve the tyre" doesn't really sound like he's refering to 10 laps in Canada Friday practice, or does it?

I take it he was referring to the Barcelona test- they didn't run the tyre at all in Canada (because of weather on friday), and the new tyre's introduction did not meet with unanimous agreement so it was put on hold, or on a tyre heap somewhere. That's what he seemed peeved about. They did some running under the guise of safety and the tyre was never introduced.

[as65p]

I take it he was referring to the Barcelona test- they didn't run the tyre at all in Canada (because of weather on friday), and the new tyre's introduction did not meet with unanimous agreement so it was put on hold, or on a tyre heap somewhere. That's what he seemed peeved about. They did some running under the guise of safety and the tyre was never introduced.

IF he did refer to MGP's Barcelona THEN he's clearly saying they tested '13 tyres to to "develope and improve" them, or not?

I don't see a way to solve issues with '13 tyres without running them.

[Kingshark]

Yes and No.

[mattferg]

Sorry, is the title of the thread "after three races" or "after three days" because the latter seems like more to do with why they're better at tyres...

[tyker]

IF he did refer to MGP's Barcelona THEN he's clearly saying they tested '13 tyres to to "develope and improve" them, or not?

I don't see a way to solve issues with '13 tyres without running them.

I'm not sure they ran on the 2013 tyres themselves, but tyres that may be used for 2014 and it seems perhaps tyres to replace the present tyres because of the delamination problems and failures, these tyres according to Hamilton were much more reliable and safer but i'm guessing also more conservative but it sounds like they were vetoed for use by some teams, i'm guessing the likes of Ferrari, Lotus and Red Bull.

Hamilton therefore was somewhat peeved to suffer yet another tyre failure knowing what he considers to be more suitable tyres available for use.

[halifaxf1fan]

Which ever tires they were running they were appropriate enough for Mercedes to be able to fix their race day rear tire overheating issue. Since the test Mercedes are the leading point scoring team, the number one team on the grid! Great result and thanks to the tribunal - no penalty.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 01 July 2013 - 04:21.

[repete]

If they tested the tires they were gunna use later this year, then they for sure ran the 2013 tires. They would need a base line to compare the updated tire too. They would want a 2013 tire from that day, with the same conditions, same setup, to compare data with an upgraded tire from the same setup and conditions.

The amount of knowledge that can be gained from running a test with the tire manufacturers own engineers present, requesting changes to see how tires react. Who better to learn about the tires than the people who designed them? Brawn is probably one of the greatest rule weasels the sport has ever seen (sporting side, on the technical side Newey is quite handy). I'm not a fan of bending the sporting rules all that much, but credit to Mercedes, they knew they could do it, and did it.

I am not saying that the test is the only reason they are on top of their tire woes, but it definitely sped up the process.

[travbrad]

They may have gained an advantage, but nowhere near the amount of tyre durability they seem to have gained recently. I don't necessarily even think they had great tyre durability in Monaco either, but the nature of that track means that if you are leading you can pretty much go as slowly as you want without any chance of being passed.

Perhaps they should have gotten a bigger penalty, but in this case the FIA was actually consistent (allowing teams to get away with extreme bending of the rules)

[ViMaMo]

Resurgence of Merc, makes the championship battle more interesting, Alonso gets a breather.
Finger boy isn't going to run away with another title hopefully.

[Jimisgod]

It makes a nice championship with 4 teams in with a chance of regular wins.

Test successful.

[seahawk]

As long as Lewis is in the WDC hunt, I am supporting all that it is needed to achieve this.

[Hyatt]

So Merc had to suffer from tire probs forever, right? they don't have engineers to solve this, even top engineer poached from other teams .... I wonder how so many people can rule out the possibility that Merc was close to solve the provlem anyway. Oh I understand, its more fun to bash around ....

[Szoelloe]

Well, Hamilton in the post race BBC interview disagrees: "we did a tyre test to develope and improve the tyre and stop this from happening. And after that tyre test they [Pirelli] didn't do anything".

Can you tell me how they tried to develope and improve a tyre which, according to official propaganda, they weren't even running?

Not that it matters much, there are more pressing concerns right now, but that little slip reveals once and for all that MGP was b*llshitting everyone claiming they didn't run this years tyres.

if you would've followed the IT hearing, one of the reasons Mercedes wanted the test was the delaminations. They ran the kevlar belt construction too, but not with a 2013 compound. They came to know about the specifics of the test later. So as far as LH goes, they indeed have given input into a specific construction, and no, they never ran 2013 spec tyres. Pirelli tried to change the tyres, but was vetoed by Lotus, Ferrari, and FI mainly, while no one took the GPDA petition to the FIA seriously. So now we have a situation created by Lotus, ferrari, FI, and mainly Red Bull, and the OP is moaning about something that Ferrari and Red Bull could - and should - have done too, but were dumb enough to protest instead.

http://www.auto-moto...en-7349799.html

[as65p]

if you would've followed the IT hearing,

I did follow it, but I'm not taking anything from there as gospel.

one of the reasons Mercedes wanted the test was the delaminations. They ran the kevlar belt construction too, but not with a 2013 compound. They came to know about the specifics of the test later. So as far as LH goes, they indeed have given input into a specific construction, and no, they never ran 2013 spec tyres. Pirelli tried to change the tyres, but was vetoed by Lotus, Ferrari, and FI mainly, while no one took the GPDA petition to the FIA seriously. So now we have a situation created by Lotus, ferrari, FI, and mainly Red Bull, and the OP is moaning about something that Ferrari and Red Bull could - and should - have done too, but were dumb enough to protest instead.

http://www.auto-moto...en-7349799.html

"Ross Brawn war echt überrascht, als wir ihm sagten, dass von allen Reifensätzen, die wir ausprobiert hatten, nur einer mit dem Kevlargürtel dabei war. Alle anderen Reifen waren für 2014 bestimmt. Das war für uns ein klares Indiz dafür, dass er keine Ahnung hatte, was wir da getestet haben."

This is nice comedy. I can see Hembrey talking to Brawn while that most cunning man in the paddock does his "oh, really? Me surprised!" face.

The thing is done and dusted, and congrats to MGP for getting away with it. But not for a second do I believe their legal claptraps and pleas of innocence, especially not in the face of little telling slips like that last one from Hamilton. He seems to be certain they did test to solve delamination and whatever other issues with this years tyres, yet at the same time we shall believe they never actually run a 2013 tyre during the test? Sure....

[Szoelloe]

I did follow it, but I'm not taking anything from there as gospel.



"Ross Brawn war echt überrascht, als wir ihm sagten, dass von allen Reifensätzen, die wir ausprobiert hatten, nur einer mit dem Kevlargürtel dabei war. Alle anderen Reifen waren für 2014 bestimmt. Das war für uns ein klares Indiz dafür, dass er keine Ahnung hatte, was wir da getestet haben."

This is nice comedy. I can see Hembrey talking to Brawn while that most cunning man in the paddock does his "oh, really? Me surprised!" face.

The thing is done and dusted, and congrats to MGP for getting away with it. But not for a second do I believe their legal claptraps and pleas of innocence, especially not in the face of little telling slips like that last one from Hamilton. He seems to be certain they did test to solve delamination and whatever other issues with this years tyres, yet at the same time we shall believe they never actually run a 2013 tyre during the test? Sure....

ok

[sheepgobba]

Yes, I think it has helped Mercedes quite a lot. From +70s behind 3 races ago to now winning races with decent tyre management.

Sure, Lewis had his issue but today it seemed more of a tyre issue than the car causing the issue, especially with reference to that kerb Anderson spoke about.


It's only a matter of time before either Horner or someone mentions Mercedes tyre test.

[Szoelloe]

Yes, I think it has helped Mercedes quite a lot. From +70s behind 3 races ago to now winning races with decent tyre management.

Sure, Lewis had his issue but today it seemed more of a tyre issue than the car causing the issue, especially with reference to that kerb Anderson spoke about.


It's only a matter of time before either Horner or someone mentions Mercedes tyre test.

what are you talking about, they mention it every five minutes?

[bourbon]

Yes, the secret test helped Mercedes quite significantly in race conditions. They cheated to bring the car up to par quickly. The IT provided for under FIA regulations did not punish the team for cheating. So Lewis and Nico got an unfair advantage in the amount of time behind the wheel of the 2013 car - and the team, factory and crew got 600 miles of extra information and feedback.

Lewis, Nico, Brawn, and all of Mercedes that participated are a bunch of cheats that got clean away with it in terms of punishment. They bypassed Ferrari and Lotus in one fell swoop on race day and expect Ferrari and Lotus to take it laying down.

Just yesterday Brawn was assuring us all that missing the YDT was going to do Merc grave harm. Now today, merely adding GP drivers to that test makes it all unfair to Merc again. I wonder why that might be? He claimed the young drivers were immaterial because the testing of new parts was the primary goal. Now that other teams have the opportunity to offer their drivers what his drivers already got, he sees it as all unfair - because lo and behold - the young drivers are not so immaterial after all. They indeed ensured that Merc would retain its advantage - and now that the advantage is in jeopardy, Brawn is all brain a tatters.

Yes indeed, missing the YDT can be harmful to Merc if carried out with drivers and tyres - but only to the extent it has already been harmful to other teams.

Edited by bourbon, 01 July 2013 - 07:44.

[OO7]

As long as Lewis is in the WDC hunt, I am supporting all that it is needed to achieve this.

[HuddersfieldTerrier1986]

Monaco everyone knows doesn't take much out of anyones tyres (hence a 1 stopper)

Canada they weren't sensational at tyre management

Britain helped by safety cars and most teams did the same strategy, partially caused by the safety cars (and general worry over tyre safety)

[fred54]

Brawn says their improved performances are down to the team finally puttting years of fruitless toil and investment in the right direction and I'd agree with him. With the amount of financial and engineering clout they were bound to turn it around. The car was clearly a good base in pre season and being quick over 1 lap is definitely a good starting block than say where McLaren are for example, much easier to put right.

Well, Hamilton in the post race BBC interview disagrees: "we did a tyre test to develope and improve the tyre and stop this from happening. And after that tyre test they [Pirelli] didn't do anything".

Can you tell me how they tried to develope and improve a tyre which, according to official propaganda, they weren't even running?

Not that it matters much, there are more pressing concerns right now, but that little slip reveals once and for all that MGP was b*llshitting everyone claiming they didn't run this years tyres.

Er no it doesn't.

His team stance was that they did the tyre test for the sake of Pirelli and safety and got truly hung out to dry. Clearly Pirelli need better testing procedures that actually involves the teams. He was pissed off about the blowout being entirely preventable under the FIA's own contract with Pirelli which they then later turned their back on.

It doesn't mean they were running a tyre destined for this season, the tribunal clearly stated this and of course a driver can tell if the tyre is better than the one he's used to running before without any data just purely on feel, if he could not do that then I would be extremely worried for him and the team he's employed by!

Edited by fred54, 01 July 2013 - 08:41.

[ZooL]

It's a coincidence. Aldo Costa was always gonna fix it sooner or later, he was the guy responsible for the Ferrari that was too gentle on the tyres and got sacked because of it!

While Merc seem to have gotten back on an equal footing with RBR, Ferrari and Lotus w.r.t to deg, it's still a bit early to say because these where the 2 hardest tyres. We should really comment when they prove it with the soft and super soft tyre at a hot track.

Merc never had a problem with the hard tyres on a cool track.

Also 3 session of testing does not compute in the grand scheme of things when they've had 9 race distances and 27 final practice sessions.

From what I've read at AMuS they say Merc changed the rear brake duct design which knocked 10 degrees temp of the rears to keep them in the window. As simple as that.

Why are people jealous? It's not as if their deg is any better than RBR, Lotus or Ferrari. They all seem equal now. it was a very nice equalisation programme. Did we want the tyre to interfere with racing anyway?

Now we see who has developed the fastest F1 car...and it looks like Mercedes has done a better job.

Edited by ZooL, 01 July 2013 - 08:56.

[as65p]

Brawn says their improved performances are down to the team finally puttting years of fruitless toil and investment in the right direction and I'd agree with him. With the amount of financial and engineering clout they were bound to turn it around. The car was clearly a good base in pre season and being quick over 1 lap is definitely a good starting block than say where McLaren are for example, much easier to put right.



Er no it doesn't.

His team stance was that they did the tyre test for the sake of Pirelli and safety and got truly hung out to dry. Clearly Pirelli need better testing procedures that actually involves the teams. He was pissed off about the blowout being entirely preventable under the FIA's own contract with Pirelli which they then later turned their back on.

It doesn't mean they were running a tyre destined for this season, the tribunal clearly stated this and of course a driver can tell if the tyre is better than the one he's used to running before without any data just purely on feel, if he could not do that then I would be extremely worried for him and the team he's employed by!

Why make a lot of assumptions and interpretations when we have a rather straightforward and unmistakable statement?


"...we did a tyre test to develope and improve the tyre and stop this from happening..."

That's what Hamilton said. Would be a pretty strange practice to go testing with the aim to fix something on a current part by running totally different future parts. And as has been pointed out before, the real 2014 tyres ought to have utterly different characteristics than the current ones, making it highly unlikely to be able to develope something for '13 tyres while running '14 ones, or vice-versa.

[sheepgobba]

what are you talking about, they mention it every five minutes?

They haven't been mentioning it all that much lately Well we can expect it again then!

[trogggy]

... yet at the same time we shall believe they never actually run a 2013 tyre during the test? Sure....

I haven't seen that claim. Who made it?

[trogggy]

... yet at the same time we shall believe they never actually run a 2013 tyre during the test? Sure....

I haven't seen that claim. Who made it?

Still looking?

[as65p]

Still looking?

You're perfectly capable of looking yourself. At least I hope so.

[trogggy]

You're perfectly capable of looking yourself. At least I hope so.

I haven't made the claim. Duh.

[as65p]

I haven't made the claim. Duh.

No. So what? Duh.

[bonjon1979a]

No. So what? Duh.

Wow, really high minded debate going on here.

[as65p]

Wow, really high minded debate going on here.

Yeah, come and join!

[trogggy]

No. So what? Duh.

So what?

You make a claim. Repeatedly.
You're asked - politely - to back it up.
You ignore the post.
When asked again it's 'Why don't you do it?'
Then it's 'So what?'

I've already said I'm not aware of Merc's 'official propaganda.' I've done a quick search and can't find it.
So the obvious conclusion is:
a) the claim is bollocks;
b) you know it's bollocks but won't admit to being mistaken (giving you the benefit of the doubt).

There remains option c) - you know it's true but won't post the link. That one would be a bit weird but I'm not dismissing it.
There might well be a d and e, who knows...

Edited by trogggy, 01 July 2013 - 10:45.

[as65p]

So what?

You make a claim. Repeatedly.
You're asked - politely - to back it up.
You ignore the post.
When asked again it's 'Why don't you do it?'
Then it's 'So what?'

I've already said I'm not aware of Merc's 'official propaganda.' I've done a quick search and can't find it.
So the obvious conclusion is:
a) the claim is bollocks;
b) you know it's bollocks but won't admit to being mistaken (giving you the benefit of the doubt).

There remains option c) - you know it's true but won't post the link. That one would be a bit weird but I'm not dismissing it.
There might well be a d and e, who knows...

My d) is you plaing silly buggers again. Sorry not interested, go bother someone else.

[trogggy]

My d) is you plaing silly buggers again. Sorry not interested, go bother someone else.

No, it isn't.

You've made repeated claims, you won't back them up - and you've tried to put the onus on me to find a link for a claim I'm not aware of and don't think exists. That's not how it works - and you know it.
If it's not bollocks then why not just post a link?
That way you can be smug and I can learn something new.

If it is bollocks then just write something else about me. Or ignore the post and pretend you posting made-up claims never happened.

Edited by trogggy, 01 July 2013 - 10:57.

[P123]

Why make a lot of assumptions and interpretations when we have a rather straightforward and unmistakable statement?


"...we did a tyre test to develope and improve the tyre and stop this from happening..."

That's what Hamilton said. Would be a pretty strange practice to go testing with the aim to fix something on a current part by running totally different future parts. And as has been pointed out before, the real 2014 tyres ought to have utterly different characteristics than the current ones, making it highly unlikely to be able to develope something for '13 tyres while running '14 ones, or vice-versa.

I think the point was that they didn't run on tyres that have been raced, or will be raced. The 2013 tyre they tested was meant to be run in Canada on Friday by all teams, but it was wet. That tyre was then vetoed by Lotus, Ferrari and FI. They tested early spec 2014 tyres too, which may be difficult to develop on a 2013 car, but Pirelli have to develop them on something. And Mercedes haven't been the only team to run in a tyre test for Pirelli this season. The situation regarding what tyres were run in the pre-Barcelona Ferrari test is even more opaque.

[SamH123]

This is a bit conspiracy-esque but did anyone see Antony Davidson's review on Sky showing us that the steel belt that kept the tire together for previous delaminations earlier in the year didn't seem to be doing the same job anymore?

Is there a chance the way Pirelli slightly changed the tires after Spain and that hurt Ferrari a little, Lotus quite a lot but helped Mercedes.

For the Spanish GP and before, ok RB and Merc were still the best qualifiers but Lotus and Ferrari were at least in touch and could get close - since then RB and merc have been in a qualifying league of their own, almost as though the tyres are running a little cooler hurting Ferrari/Lotus relatively in qualifying.

What did Pirelli claim they changed, just the bonding material? I wonder if it changed anything about the tyre because we have seen a change in pecking order.