162 replies to this topic

[rmpugh]

Maybe because it happened just before JEV's tyre blew up in front of the 2 Lotus cars, but it is interesting that nobody seems to have picked up the message from Lotus to Grosjean saying "Kimi is faster than you" forcing Romain to move over and allow Kimi past. Why is it that when Ferrari say this to Massa it is massive, but Lotus telling Romain to let Kimi past, (again, they also did the same last year), nobody seems to care?

[superdelphinus]

Humph, have you only just started watching f1? The rules got changed pretty much as a direct result of the alonso/Massa incident

[TheUltimateWorrier]

Team orders were banned when the 'Fernando is faster than you' happened. Plus Massa was leading the race and could/should/would have won.

[SpaMaster]

Because it was illegal at that time?

[Watkins74]

Because it was illegal at that time?

Sure. No one on this forum has bitched about Massa moving over since the rule change.

[rmpugh]

Humph, have you only just started watching f1? The rules got changed pretty much as a direct result of the alonso/Massa incident

It has nothing to do with rules, as I am sure you are aware. Team orders were legal in Austria 2002, yet people seemed to be annoyed. Is it just ok if it benefits Kimi, or is it only bad if it benefits Ferrari?

[Watkins74]

It has nothing to do with rules, as I am sure you are aware. Team orders were legal in Austria 2002, yet people seemed to be annoyed. Is it just ok if it benefits Kimi, or is it only bad if it benefits Ferrari?

Winner, Winner Chicken dinner!

[Dan333SP]

Thread fail. Team orders are not banned anymore, and Kimi is much better placed in the standings. No brainer.

[SpaMaster]

Sure. No one on this forum has bitched about Massa moving over since the rule change.

Did somone bitch when Massa moved over in the last races last year? Or, did people complain when Ferrari started screwing over Massa in the first and second races itself? Nice try and all, but pick better arguments.

[denthierry]

Maybe because it happened just before JEV's tyre blew up in front of the 2 Lotus cars, but it is interesting that nobody seems to have picked up the message from Lotus to Grosjean saying "Kimi is faster than you" forcing Romain to move over and allow Kimi past. Why is it that when Ferrari say this to Massa it is massive, but Lotus telling Romain to let Kimi past, (again, they also did the same last year), nobody seems to care?

Oh but sure we care!! I for one care a lot about the fact it took Lotus one lap too much to tell RG to move over.

[SpaMaster]

Winner, Winner Chicken dinner!

Yeah, it's the whole world out to get Ferrari! There's nothing ridiculous about Austria 2002, isn't it? Just the poor victim Ferrari!

[st99]

I know TO are permitted now and teams have to ensure their best driver gets the most points avaliable in order to fight for the WDC, but I didn't like that call at all.
Grosjean has had three horrible races in a row and just when he was back fighting for points they tell him this?

It has nothing to do with rules, as I am sure you are aware. Team orders were legal in Austria 2002, yet people seemed to be annoyed. Is it just ok if it benefits Kimi, or is it only bad if it benefits Ferrari?

Kimi is one of my favourite drivers and I'm not ok with what happened. I didn't like when they do it with Massa, Romain or whoever it is. If it is in the last or one of the last races and the other guy is fighting for the WDC well then OK but not like this.

Edited by st99, 30 June 2013 - 19:01.

[ZZei]

Eh, kimi was being hold up by grosjean who couldnt overtake a struggling vergne. Surely nobady thinks grosjean has a chance of the title.
But its the "why dont they bash kimi as much as they bash fernando" brigade getting vocal again

[Andrew Hope]

I know it's fun to refer to drivers as if we knew them, but fans of "Kimi" and "Romain" should try and remember this is a team sport.

[TheThirdTenor1]

Did somone bitch when Massa moved over in the last races last year? Or, did people complain when Ferrari started screwing over Massa in the first and second races itself? Nice try and all, but pick better arguments.

There were complaints after Melbourne even though this was not actually a team order, but a tactical error by Massa's side of the garage.

[Vesuvius]

doesn't matter anyway, Kimi is fighting in much better positions in drivers championship than Romain....and the call was right, Romain lost all his speed during the race and was been overtaken everywhere.

[rmpugh]

Thread fail. Team orders are not banned anymore, and Kimi is much better placed in the standings. No brainer.

Last year, Romain was also told "Kimi is faster than you" in the Bahrain GP. This was only the 4th GP of the season, and Kimi was only 8 points ahead. Was that also a "no brainer", or are you just applying different standards to Kimi and Lotus than Ferrari?

[ardbeg]

I know TO are permitted now and teams have to ensure their best driver gets the most points avaliable in order to fight for the WDC, but I didn't like that call at all.
Grosjean has had three horrible races in a row and just when he was back fighting for points they tell him this?



Kimi is one of my favourite drivers and I'm not ok with what happened. I didn't like when they do it with Massa, Romain or whoever it is. If it is in the last or one of the last races and the other guy is fighting for the WDC well the OK but not like this.

It was pretty stupid by Grosjean to fight Kimi there inthe first place. They must have discussed situations like that before the race. Grosjean fought Kimi very aggressively just when Kimi came out from the pits and and allowed Alonso, who Kimi had leapfrogged in the pit stops, to pass them both. I guess Romain is getting spanked as we speak.

[TheThirdTenor1]

For all the people saying TOs were banned from 2003 - 10 - this is true. However, many team orders were still given through coded messages during this era (there are many examples).

To answer the OP, i think that Hockenheim 2010 being for the lead and not much else happening in that race played a factor. In this case, it was not even for a podium spot and there were plenty of other incidents which stole the limelight.

[fisssssi]

I actually thought it was a bit tongue-in-cheek by Lotus, using the infamous phrase word-for-word

As others have already said, team orders are no longer banned, and they probably just wanted to make sure Romain didn't do anything stupid when Kimi came past him.

[Watkins74]

Did somone bitch when Massa moved over in the last races last year? Or, did people complain when Ferrari started screwing over Massa in the first and second races itself? Nice try and all, but pick better arguments.

Pop Quiz

What was the first race in 2012 that Grosjean got the "Kimi is faster than you' call?

According to your stance in must of been in the last races........but was it? Let's see if your argument holds water.

hint: You will find the answer above.

Edited by Watkins74, 30 June 2013 - 19:06.

[ardbeg]

Last year, Romain was also told "Kimi is faster than you" in the Bahrain GP. This was only the 4th GP of the season, and Kimi was only 8 points ahead. Was that also a "no brainer", or are you just applying different standards to Kimi and Lotus than Ferrari?

Maybe you already forgot what is is stated earlier in this thread: Team orders are legal! The outcry against "Alonso is faster than you" was because it was so obvious Ferrari was breaking the rules, they gave team orders at a time when team orders were illegal. Everybody knew team orders existed and that all teams used them, but that was the first time it was so obvious that a punishment was expected.

They got off with nothing at all, Todt simply made their actions legal.

[ardbeg]

I actually thought it was a bit tongue-in-cheek by Lotus, using the infamous phrase word-for-word

Exactly, they knew we'd be listening

[garoidb]

Sure. No one on this forum has bitched about Massa moving over since the rule change.

Spot on.

Did somone bitch when Massa moved over in the last races last year? Or, did people complain when Ferrari started screwing over Massa in the first and second races itself? Nice try and all, but pick better arguments.

Rubbish. Ferrari allowed Massa to race for himself from the beginning of the season. What they didn't do is protect him from Alonso and his side of the garage. Guess what - Alonso was allowed to race for himself too.

[st99]

It was pretty stupid by Grosjean to fight Kimi there inthe first place. They must have discussed situations like that before the race. Grosjean fought Kimi very aggressively just when Kimi came out from the pits and and allowed Alonso, who Kimi had leapfrogged in the pit stops, to pass them both. I guess Romain is getting spanked as we speak.

You're right and I know it was probably the best thing to do in order to achieve better positions but it's just that I don't like TO at all and telling him the exact same thing Smedley had told Massa was poor IMO.

[SpaMaster]

Pop Quiz

What was the first race in 2012 that Grosjean got the "Kimi is faster than you' call?

According to your stance in must of been in the last races........but was it? Let's see if your argument holds water.

I don't know where you are going with all this. In your Kimi cynicism you totally track of common sense. Team orders were still legal in 2012. Kimi was on a different strategy and he had a better chance to fight for victory. That was proven later in the race when he caught up with Vettel and made a close overtaking attempt. Grosjean never had that chance with his strategy. It would have been legal even during the team order-ban era. To prove this, you can see that later last year there were times when Grosjean was allowed to immediately stay in front of Kimi and it has also already happened this year in Malaysia. If you it is as clear-cut as you say, Grosjean would have been asked to move over in Malaysia this year as well. This proves my point. Next.

[TheThirdTenor1]

Maybe you already forgot what is is stated earlier in this thread: Team orders are legal! The outcry against "Alonso is faster than you" was because it was so obvious Ferrari was breaking the rules, they gave team orders at a time when team orders were illegal. Everybody knew team orders existed and that all teams used them, but that was the first time it was so obvious that a punishment was expected.

They got off with nothing at all, Todt simply made their actions legal.

So it's not of whether team orders were legal or not (as you said "Everybody knew team orders existed"). It was more a case of Ferrari used them in too obvious a manner.

[Skinnyguy]

Things Lotus did wrong:

1) Not openly giving the order "let Räikkönen pass". No need to sound idiotic when using team orders anymore.
2) If this is the game you´re going to play, which I don´t agree with, at least do it properly. Changing your mind mid-game won´t help. If Romain is there to support Räikkönen, he should have covered his back on that outlap, instead of squabling with him and allowing a direct rival through. They should talk about this pre-race, not during race.

[TheThirdTenor1]

Rubbish. Ferrari allowed Massa to race for himself from the beginning of the season. What they didn't do is protect him from Alonso and his side of the garage. Guess what - Alonso was allowed to race for himself too.

[SpaMaster]

Spot on.



Rubbish. Ferrari allowed Massa to race for himself from the beginning of the season. What they didn't do is protect him from Alonso and his side of the garage. Guess what - Alonso was allowed to race for himself too.

What is rubbish is some Ferrari fans using this as a chance to point out team order issue. It is pathetic. The whole world can see the difference. It is a dead-horse. Give it up.

Edited by SpaMaster, 30 June 2013 - 19:15.

[artista]

Frankly, the first question should be, how on earth did the team manage to mess things up in such a way, that the driver they had in front in the race ends up behind his teammate after pitting and losing 5.9 seconds with Alonso, while fighting with Grosjean, in only 3 laps.
It pretty much explains the order the team gave afterwards.

[Vesuvius]

Frankly, the first question should be, how on earth did the team manage to mess things up in such a way, that the driver they had in front in the race ends up behind his teammate after pitting and losing 5.9 seconds with Alonso, while fighting with Grosjean, in only 3 laps.
It pretty much explains the order the team gave afterwards.

this and thanks to Romain there were pretty close to hit each other just before the call.

[SpaMaster]

Things Lotus did wrong:

1) Not openly giving the order "let Räikkönen pass". No need to sound idiotic when using team orders anymore.
2) If this is the game you´re going to play, which I don´t agree with, at least do it properly. Changing your mind mid-game won´t help. If Romain is there to support Räikkönen, he should have covered his back on that outlap, instead of squabling with him and allowing a direct rival through. They should talk about this pre-race, not during race.

Exactly.

[garoidb]

What is rubbish is some Ferrari fans using this as a chance to point out team order issue. It is pathetic. The whole world can see the difference. It is a dead-horse. Give it up.

What is crystal clear is that Red Bull, Mercedes and now Lotus have now used team orders at an earlier point in the season than any Alonso-Massa team-order.

[TheThirdTenor1]

What is rubbish is some Ferrari fans using this as a chance to point out team order issue. It is pathetic. The whole world can see the difference. It is a dead-horse. Give it up.

You're not really addressing garoidb's points though (and he does make some very good points).

And please explain why it is different (and don't use the "but team orders are legal now" excuse, because team orders were still used extensively when they were illegal).

[ardbeg]

So it's not of whether team orders were legal or not (as you said "Everybody knew team orders existed"). It was more a case of Ferrari used them in too obvious a manner.

Yes. Of course. I think we all was very curious to see what FiA would do. The team order rule was idiotic, it could not be policed, then suddenly Ferrari slips and let the team order out in the open. They broke a rule and we had waited a long time to see what would happen when someone got caught. Nothing happened. That was a disappointment, an anti-climax. That it was Ferri was, I think, of lesser importance although they had up until that point been the ones closest to expose themselves at several occasions prior the famous words of Smedley.

Edited by ardbeg, 30 June 2013 - 19:23.

[TheThirdTenor1]

Yes. Of course. I think we all was very curious to see what FiA would do. The team order rule was idiotic, it could not be policed, then suddenly Ferrari slips and let the team order out in the open. They broke a rule and we had waited a long time to see what would happen when someone got caught. Nothing happened. That was a disappointment, an anti-climax. That it was Ferri was, I think, of lesser importance although they had up until that point been the ones closest to expose themselves at several occasions prior the famous words of Smedley.

The thing is, they were not the first to break the rule (it had been broken many times before, but in less obvious ways, or less controversial circumstances). They did break it in an obvious way with the whole world watching, i do accept that point. As you said, it was an idiotic rule that was impossible to police, so the FIA could not really do much about it.

[Dan333SP]

Last year, Romain was also told "Kimi is faster than you" in the Bahrain GP. This was only the 4th GP of the season, and Kimi was only 8 points ahead. Was that also a "no brainer", or are you just applying different standards to Kimi and Lotus than Ferrari?

I am not applying any standards to Ferrari, you'll notice that I didn't mention the Germany incident or any other team order incidents. All I said was that this specific call in this specific race was a no brainer because Kimi still has an outside shot at the title and every point matters. For what it's worth, I thought Bahrain last year was also a good choice on the part of Lotus, Kimi is a clear #1 driver.

[rmpugh]

I don't know where you are going with all this. In your Kimi cynicism you totally track of common sense. Team orders were still legal in 2012. Kimi was on a different strategy and he had a better chance to fight for victory. That was proven later in the race when he caught up with Vettel and made a close overtaking attempt. Grosjean never had that chance with his strategy. It would have been legal even during the team order-ban era. To prove this, you can see that later last year there were times when Grosjean was allowed to immediately stay in front of Kimi and it has also already happened this year in Malaysia. If you it is as clear-cut as you say, Grosjean would have been asked to move over in Malaysia this year as well. This proves my point. Next.

Err, Kimi ended up 2nd and Grosjean ended up 3rd. If they didn't employ team orders, Grosjean would have ended up 2nd and Kimi 3rd. Either way 2nd and 3rd. Anyway, the end point is apparently irrelevant. Team orders were legal in 2002, and in exactly the same situation, if they didn't employ team orders, Ferrari would have had a 1st and 2nd in Austria. So, you have to say that if it is ok for Kimi, it is ok for Ferrari. Otherwise, you are just Kimi loving. Why is it ok for Lotus, but not ok for Ferrari?

[ardbeg]

As you said, it was an idiotic rule that was impossible to police, so the FIA could not really do much about it.

Oh yes, they could and the should have done something because a rule is a rule. They should have done something and then gotten rid of the rule. Proper punishment would probably have been something like stripping Ferrari of the WCC points for that race. Or maybe a $100 000 000 fine...

[garoidb]

Oh yes, they could and the should have done something because a rule is a rule. They should have done something and then gotten rid of the rule. Proper punishment would probably have been something like stripping Ferrari of the WCC points for that race. Or maybe a $100 000 000 fine...

Getting off topic, but a big punishment could not be applied because there actually was no order and the verdict would therefore not have stood up in (non-FIA) court.

[TheThirdTenor1]

Oh yes, they could and the should have done something because a rule is a rule. They should have done something and then gotten rid of the rule. Proper punishment would probably have been something like stripping Ferrari of the WCC points for that race. Or maybe a $100 000 000 fine...

Because they broke the rule in too obvious a manner? don't think so.

The rule was broken plenty of times before and nothing was done. Don't see why they should have started punishing teams then.

[ardbeg]

Getting off topic, but a big punishment could not be applied because there actually was no order and the verdict would therefore not have stood up in (non-FIA) court.

I think Ferrari even admitted it, but I don't remembeer. But evidence was clear, it would have stood up in any court.

[ardbeg]

Because they broke the rule in too obvious a manner? don't think so.

The rule was broken plenty of times before and nothing was done. Don't see why they should have started punishing teams then.

Because they could prove it of course. None of the previous offences, if there was any, could be. The rule had been there so long that all teams knew how to express themselves to avoid getting caught. All teams including Ferrari. Up until that point.

[garoidb]

I think Ferrari even admitted it, but I don't remembeer. But evidence was clear, it would have stood up in any court.

They accepted the punishment because it was minor and better than getting into a conflict with the FIA. The punishment was minor so that this would happen. In court, Ferrari could (I believe) have raised several other instances of team orders occurring since 2002 in F1 through coded messages or pre-arrangements. It was a can of worms. Basically, the rule was unenforceable and Ferrari were only guilty of being too obvious. The reason they were too obvious is that they obviously had not pre-arranged this with Felipe and he hadn't figured it out for himself.

[ElDictatore]

I dont have a problem with the fact that they apply team-order. It's legal and Kimi might have a chance for the title if he gets lucky.

What I found a bit baffling that they phrased it that way, as if it is a joke. As a driver it must be frustrating when you have to back off in a race where you could be faster than your teammate but when even the team makes it a laughing matter? I would be pissed.

[Watkins74]

This proves my point.

Congratulations on totally missing the point.

[SpaMaster]

What is crystal clear is that Red Bull, Mercedes and now Lotus have now used team orders at an earlier point in the season than any Alonso-Massa team-order.

Grosjean finished directly ahead of Raikkonen in Malaysia. I really don't see the fuss over what happened today. If I were team principal, I would have clearly said, "Romain, move over". I would not have said that at Malaysia though. I would let Grosjean keep his place. I have no problems with Germany 2010 for your information. I found Austria 2002 disgusting.

[ardbeg]

I dont have a problem with the fact that they apply team-order. It's legal and Kimi might have a chance for the title if he gets lucky.

What I found a bit baffling that they phrased it that way, as if it is a joke. As a driver it must be frustrating when you have to back off in a race where you could be faster than your teammate but when even the team makes it a laughing matter? I would be pissed.

I think maybe the team was a bit pissed that they really had to tell Romain to move aside. For everyone but him it was obvious he was hurting the team.

[mnmracer]

I loved the choice of words