162 replies to this topic

[Seanspeed]

3. The teammate behind is faster and will agree to try to pass the teammate ahead legitimately,
(a) but the teammate ahead is a "crashkid" who will likely take them both out if given the opportunity to have a free-for-all wheel to wheel opportunity OR

To be fair, Grosjean has been nothing but the consummate team player for Kimi so far.

[ViMaMo]

2010 after Silverstone, Alonso was 31 points ahead of Massa to refresh your minds. This will evoke a round of mathematical issues. And mathematically speaking, even Romain has a chance of winning or why shouldn't he be competing for the best possible finish in the WDC table "morally speaking"?

[ardbeg]

It seems to me that people are justifying the Kimi team orders as better than Ferrari team orders for 3 reasons, all of which could also justify Ferrari team orders.

1. It is legal now, whereas it wasn't legal in 2010.

A. Fair enough. In which case Austria 2002 was fine. Team orders were legal, and they were employed. Stop bitching about Austria 2002.

2. The drivers were on different strategies, so it was needed to allow the driver that needed to stop more ahead to allow both drivers to do the best.

A. Grosjean stopped 3 times and Kimi twice. They were both being held up by JEV, and Romain was just doing better than Kimi. Kimi was not faster, Romain was just held up by a slower car. If it were down to strategy, it was more important to allow Romain to be ahead to let him use his extra pit strategy to work.

3. Kimi is much better placed in the championship, so should be allowed the extra points.

A. True. In exactly the same way as Alonso in 2010 and Schumacher in 2002. However, Ferrari allowed Massa to stay ahead in 2010 in the earlier races, whereas Romain Grosjean was forced to let Kimi past in the 4th GP of 2012 when he was just 8 points behind Kimi.

Altogether, if you are against team orders for any reason, what Lotus did was very bad. If you don't mind, what Ferrari did was fine. There is no in between.

There is a lot more differences, for instance:
-Massa and Alonso was driving for P1 & 2, Massa was asked to give away a GP victory
-Massa had recently come back after serious injuries, many people wanted a success story
-Lotus are in a tricky financial situation, they need to stay in the WDC hunt

And your answer for different strategies does not hold. Grosjean had some laps on faster tires due to his three stop stragey and caught Kimi just as he came out of the pits. Kimi closed that gap immediately. After Kimi passed Grosjean, did Romain stay close behind for until his next pit stop? I'll answer that - he didn't.

It does not matter much though, I doubt anyone seriously believe that Lotus made a bad call there. But to simplify things and say (as some do) that the only difference is that it was illegal in Hockenheim and legal now, that is just provocations.

Edited by ardbeg, 02 July 2013 - 02:22.

[Oho]

I'm surprised they codified the message, why not just say "Let Kimi through".

Perhaps because Räikkönen actually was faster?

[Music Lover]

Pff, typical crybaby Raikkonen. Needs his teammates to move out of the way.

The same happened at Bahrain 2012 and Singapore 2012. Poor decision of Lotus as usual, they keep destroying Romain's confidence for the benefit of their goldenboy.

Spoiler

cough cough irony cough cough

Who is the crybaby?
Sure thing, it's not Kimi

btw, I was perfectly fine when Alonso passed Massa (or any other team order). F1 is a team sport and the team should be able to make decisions maximizing the points! When existed it was a stupid rule.

And GRO does a quite good job himself destroying his confidence...
You REALLY think Lotus (or any other team) on purpose affect a driver in a bad way so he in the future deliver LESS points to the team?

[Oho]

Pieniä on silakat joulukaloiksi....

Accidental, I believe, irony on this thread is just hilarious....

Edited by Oho, 02 July 2013 - 08:44.

[as65p]

Accidental, I believe, irony on this thread is just hilarious....

Yep.

[Fontainebleau]

Yes, you're right about Bahrain, but we are talking about Germany. And I don't agree with you about possibility of pass. It was impossible in both times: for Kimi in Bahrain and for Alonso in Germany. It could have been possible just to crash.

My point was that in both cases they asked the teams to let them pass, and in both cases they were faster and could have overtaken on their own - or in other words, that asking to be let by does not mean that you cannot overtake, only that the risk is not worth it

[as65p]

There is a lot more differences, for instance:
-Massa and Alonso was driving for P1 & 2, Massa was asked to give away a GP victory
-Massa had recently come back after serious injuries, many people wanted a success story
-Lotus are in a tricky financial situation, they need to stay in the WDC hunt

And your answer for different strategies does not hold. Grosjean had some laps on faster tires due to his three stop stragey and caught Kimi just as he came out of the pits. Kimi closed that gap immediately. After Kimi passed Grosjean, did Romain stay close behind for until his next pit stop? I'll answer that - he didn't.

It does not matter much though, I doubt anyone seriously believe that Lotus made a bad call there. But to simplify things and say (as some do) that the only difference is that it was illegal in Hockenheim and legal now, that is just provocations.

What's that supposed to mean? It was explained to you how one can come to such a conclusion, of course you don't need to agree, but "provocations"? Do you always feel provoked by people not agreeing with you?

At the root of it, what we got here is two teams running a clear no.1 / no.2 policy, which, given their respective driver line-ups, is an entirely sensible strategy. The resulting teamorders will of course depend on race and championship situations, which are hardly ever the exact same at any given point in time - but essentially both Lotus and Ferrari have shown numerous times they are prepared to go all the way in supporting their lead driver. As such, any differences in team orders / preferential treatment are purely circumstancial, substantially the intra-team dynamics at Ferrari and Lotus right now aren as identical as it gets.

Tough luck if those similarities are annoying to some.

[motorhead]

I was just pointing out the obvious double standard. Kimi is actually the only driver to win a WDC through team orders in the final race of the year.

And look at how many times "Mr greatest developing driver" Alonso has tried it without winning a WDC

[Oho]

Yep.

Put me on your ignore, pretty please with a cherry on top.

[Oho]

I sincerely doubt that there was any kind of team order issued at all in Brazil 2007, I mean come on. It was the last race of the season and Massa was out of the running for the title. I don't think Massa even needed a specific order, he knew what to do.

Yeah, he almost binned it trying to build a gap to Räikkönen before second round of stops to be able to, need be, hand over the lead in more theatrical manner in the closing stages.

[Gilles4Ever]

This thread is no longer discussing the radio message, it's an Alonso vs Kimi thread and therefore closed