54 replies to this topic

[Jepho]

The young driver Test will be probably replaced by using current drivers to test Tyres.


So Mercedes will not test there and so the Punishment would be fair , what do u think

[g1n]

Mercedes would then argue that if it is no longer a "young driver's test" but a "tyre test", then technically they are not banned from it. I got this vibe from Brawn today that is exactly the way they will play it
I wouldn't be surprised if they tried it.

[MortenF1]

("...to be replaced by drivers and tires" - interesting. )

It would be a disgrace if Mercedes were to be held out from such a test, 'cause it's not what they had with Pirelli on Barcelona.

[Mackey]

So Mercedes will not test there and so the Punishment would be fair , what do u think

It still wont be fair as Mercedes would have gained an unfair advantadge for 4-5 races. But it´ll be hilarious to see Brawn´s reaction if this goes ahead

[garoidb]

The young driver Test will be probably replaced by using current drivers to test Tyres.


So Mercedes will not test there and so the Punishment would be fair , what do u think

Drivers under the age of 40 could be considered young.

[ardbeg]

The young driver Test will be probably replaced by using current drivers to test Tyres.


So Mercedes will not test there and so the Punishment would be fair , what do u think

As already said - that would be a different event from the one Mercedes was excluded from.

[thechin]

("...to be replaced by drivers and tires" - interesting. )

It would be a disgrace if Mercedes were to be held out from such a test, 'cause it's not what they had with Pirelli on Barcelona.

I don't think we can be sure exactly what Mercedes had at Barcelona. Certainly, just looking at results since then it seems like they had more than they will admit to.

What is a disgrace is that Mercedes did their own test in the first place and then suggested what punishment they would like to take for it.

[study]

I don't think we can be sure exactly what Mercedes had at Barcelona. Certainly, just looking at results since then it seems like they had more than they will admit to.

What is a disgrace is that Mercedes did their own test in the first place and then suggested what punishment they would like to take for it.

I believe Ferrari did there own tests aswell.

[Mackey]

I believe Ferrari did there own tests aswell.

Legal tests with a 2 year old car.

[Jepho]

Legal tests with a 2 year old car.

The question is if mercedes still would be pushed away from the test?

[ardbeg]

Legal tests with a 2 year old car.

Allegedly legal, allegedly a 2011 car. Be careful with that argument, it might prove false anytime.

[speednerd]

Allegedly legal, allegedly a 2011 car. Be careful with that argument, it might prove false anytime.

No other team's complained about it, unlike Mercedes who have been punished.

[Fudce]

Wont happen.

The sporting regulations specifically allow the Young Driver Test. The rule states:

"One three day young driver training test carried out on a date and site approved by the FIA following consultation with all teams. No driver who has competed in more than two F1 World Championship races may take part in this test and all drivers must be in possession of an International A Licence."

In order to change the rule and create an exception for changing the Young Driver test in to a real test with real drivers, they'll need unanimous support, and do you really think that Mercedes, who aren't allowed to participate, will give their rivals such a big advantage?

[Ricardo F1]

Wont happen.

The sporting regulations specifically allow the Young Driver Test. The rule states:

"One three day young driver training test carried out on a date and site approved by the FIA following consultation with all teams. No driver who has competed in more than two F1 World Championship races may take part in this test and all drivers must be in possession of an International A Licence."

In order to change the rule and create an exception for changing the Young Driver test in to a real test with real drivers, they'll need unanimous support, and do you really think that Mercedes, who aren't allowed to participate, will give their rivals such a big advantage?

If everyone is concerned about the safety in the sport then surely nobody would be adverse to Mercedes testing as well.

[Cyanide]

This is an emergency measure so I expect this to be approved despite the regulations regarding the YDT + they need this desperately. But it needs to be controlled and regulated and not for the purpose of testing new components. The test should only focus on working out the fundamental issues with the tyres and to gather data for Pirelli to analyze. It makes perfect sense to do it in Silverstone because there the problem was more severe.

Edited by Cyanide, 30 June 2013 - 19:59.

[fabr68]

Mercedes already did their tire test. No more test for them

[MikeTekRacing]

Wont happen.

The sporting regulations specifically allow the Young Driver Test. The rule states:

"One three day young driver training test carried out on a date and site approved by the FIA following consultation with all teams. No driver who has competed in more than two F1 World Championship races may take part in this test and all drivers must be in possession of an International A Licence."

In order to change the rule and create an exception for changing the Young Driver test in to a real test with real drivers, they'll need unanimous support, and do you really think that Mercedes, who aren't allowed to participate, will give their rivals such a big advantage?

this makes most sense as an outcome

[SpaMaster]

Mercedes would then argue that if it is no longer a "young driver's test" but a "tyre test", then technically they are not banned from it. I got this vibe from Brawn today that is exactly the way they will play it
I wouldn't be surprised if they tried it.

May be all the other teams would use black helmets?

[MikeTekRacing]

Mercedes already did their tire test. No more test for them

it was proven they didn't know what tyres they were using and that the tyres were not for this year so....
not much of a tyre test....the only "argument" horner had is that they must have gained other info...but not tyre related

[ardbeg]

No other team's complained about it, unlike Mercedes who have been punished.

Actually, yes. If no one had complained, Todt would not have had that issue on the table.

[ensign14]

Mercedes would then argue that if it is no longer a "young driver's test" but a "tyre test", then technically they are not banned from it. I got this vibe from Brawn today that is exactly the way they will play it
I wouldn't be surprised if they tried it.

Add to that such a change would be on safety grounds. It can hardly be safe to keep Mercedes out of a test that is designed to stop their drivers from being maimed.

[study]

Add to that such a change would be on safety grounds. It can hardly be safe to keep Mercedes out of a test that is designed to stop their drivers from being maimed.

[fabr68]

If this takes place of the young driver test Mercedes are screwed. If this is a new and aditional test Mercedes will participate

[study]

If this takes place of the young driver test Mercedes are screwed. If this is a new and aditional test Mercedes will participate

Opinions are split on this. It'd be interesting to see the punishment verdict in writing, I think if they replace the YDT, brawn will be able to sail right through that with no problem.

[Ricardo F1]

Mercedes already did their tire test. No more test for them

On mostly next years tyres (and 2013 tyres subsequently Pirelli chose not to pursue) under Pirelli guidance with no upgrades. Hardly the same thing is it?

Edited by Ricardo F1, 30 June 2013 - 20:26.

[pdac]

I not 100% sure, but I doubt that anything like this could happen. The rules are clear about what tests are allowed when as the Mercedes/Pirelli test highlighted. For there may be grounds for the FIA to introduce an additional test, but I would expect that they cannot change the focus of the young driver tests without the agreement of all teams (as seems to be the case with all deviations from the regulations). That being the case I would doubt Mercedes would agree unless they were included in the test and Force India may not agree at all.

[MikeTekRacing]

if it's on safety they probably can't veto it as long as they are invited

[ardbeg]

if it's on safety they probably can't veto it as long as they are invited

But who would pay for such a test? I assume the teams would demand to have their costs covered because it would not be a test that they have in their budget and at the same time it would be something that, since it is on safety grounds, they would be basically forced to take part of. Not taking part would not be safe since they would not be familiar with...

I doubt that test will happen. It will be a YDT and nothing else.

[Cyanide]

But who would pay for such a test? I assume the teams would demand to have their costs covered because it would not be a test that they have in their budget and at the same time it would be something that, since it is on safety grounds, they would be basically forced to take part of. Not taking part would not be safe since they would not be familiar with...

I doubt that test will happen. It will be a YDT and nothing else.

And you think that having a YDT + another test to gather data for Pirelli to improve the safety of the tyres would be cheaper? They would need to pay for a YDT anyway so I'm assuming that whoever covers the cost for that will also cover the cost for this if it gets replaced. The concept is essentially the same, you just put the current drivers in there with the current tyres. The costs shouldn't be so different.

This test is absolutely mandatory. The Silverstone incidents were the last straw and the season cannot go on with these tyres anymore so they need a proper testing ASAP.

Edited by Cyanide, 30 June 2013 - 21:04.

[Fastcake]

Well, at least they are taking seriously the fact that Pirelli need to test their tyres.

[thechin]

it was proven they didn't know what tyres they were using and that the tyres were not for this year so....
not much of a tyre test....the only "argument" horner had is that they must have gained other info...but not tyre related

Hamilton admitted today that they tested different tyres and better ones than they raced today. They know a lot more about what they tested than they are letting on.

[MortenF1]

Hamilton admitted today that they tested different tyres and better ones than they raced today. They know a lot more about what they tested than they are letting on.

OMG. He was in the car driving, 'course he'd feel it instantly if he was on a set that was better than what they have now.

[study]

Hamilton admitted today that they tested different tyres and better ones than they raced today. They know a lot more about what they tested than they are letting on.

But it also means that the tests they did wasn't relevant to this seasons racing as they are not using the tyres tested.

[redreni]

Horner and Domenicali's idea. It is designed to cynically exploit the concern surrounding tyre safety to increase the severity of Mercedes' punishment. Missing a test run with rookie drivers on the standard rubber is one thing. Missing a tyre development test with race drivers on development rubber that is then likely to be introduced in races is another. This alternative punishment would probably fit the crime a bit better than the one Mercedes have been given, but the tribunal's decision was to ban Mercedes from the young driver test, and this would be much harsher.

Furthermore Mercedes are specifically banned from the young driver test. If the sporting regulations were to be amended so that the young driver test is replaced by a different test, Mercedes would not be banned from that test. On the other hand if the sporting regulations were amended so the ban on using race drivers in the young driver test is removed, but it's still called the "young driver test", then Mercedes will still be banned from it. The question is, can such a rule change be made by the FIA on safety grounds without agreement? Because if agreement is needed, it's hard to see why Mercedes would agree. Perhaps if Mercedes were allowed some running at the tyre test, but not as much as the others, they may agree to this idea?

[KingB]

c'mon this is ridiculous....young drivers don't have much chances to test with an F1 car today...and they would rob their only real opportunity?
would be really sh*tty for all the young hopes...

find a different solution...

[Fangiola]

If everyone is concerned about the safety in the sport then surely nobody would be adverse to Mercedes testing as well.

christian Horner will

[ardbeg]

And you think that having a YDT + another test to gather data for Pirelli to improve the safety of the tyres would be cheaper? They would need to pay for a YDT anyway so I'm assuming that whoever covers the cost for that will also cover the cost for this if it gets replaced. The concept is essentially the same, you just put the current drivers in there with the current tyres. The costs shouldn't be so different.

This test is absolutely mandatory. The Silverstone incidents were the last straw and the season cannot go on with these tyres anymore so they need a proper testing ASAP.

It is not a question of what is cheaper, it is about who is going to pay. If they insert a new test due to safety issues that is not the teams responsibility, the teams will want to be compensated. The YDT have another type of value to them and that will be lost if that test is cancelled.

[Fangiola]

I remember Ferrari and Lotus screaming the tyres shouldn't be changed. At least Ferrari is singing a different tune now. Lotus on the other hand are keeping quiet and cowering in a corner

[charly0418]

I remember Ferrari and Lotus screaming the tyres shouldn't be changed. At least Ferrari is singing a different tune now. Lotus on the other hand are keeping quiet and cowering in a corner

Lotus team principal Eric Boullier added: "Going back to the Kevlar belt from last year would be one solution"

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/108475

[turssi]

Could something like this happen as the result of a safety emergency?

To keep Merc out they would need to "use the YDT to resolve acute safety related tire issues with the teams with standing permission to participate in the YDT".

[ardbeg]

Could something like this happen as the result of a safety emergency?

To keep Merc out they would need to "use the YDT to resolve acute safety related tire issues with the teams with standing permission to participate in the YDT".

Would be impossible for many reasons. One of them would be that if Merc have a tire failure or maybe a suspension failure in the next race they could sue FiA for plenty. Another reason is that Pirelli is only allowed to test with 2013 cars if all teams are invited.

[redreni]

Would be impossible for many reasons. One of them would be that if Merc have a tire failure or maybe a suspension failure in the next race they could sue FiA for plenty. Another reason is that Pirelli is only allowed to test with 2013 cars if all teams are invited.

Not true. If the FIA, on safety grounds, removes the restriction on drivers who have participated in more than two Grands Prix participating in the young driver test from the sporting reguations, hey presto the young driver test goes ahead with race drivers, and Mercedes are still banned from it by virtue of the tribunal decision.

[Cool Beans]

Lotus team principal Eric Boullier added: "Going back to the Kevlar belt from last year would be one solution"

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/108475

I didn't see steel belts on the tyres when they blew up today. The great thing with them was they kept their shape and didn't rip the car to pieces on the way back to the pits. Did Pirelli change to the kevlar belts without informing the non-approving teams *tinfoil hat on*

[ardbeg]

Not true. If the FIA, on safety grounds, removes the restriction on drivers who have participated in more than two Grands Prix participating in the young driver test from the sporting reguations, hey presto the young driver test goes ahead with race drivers, and Mercedes are still banned from it by virtue of the tribunal decision.

So you mean that young drivers should not be allowed to take part in the young drivers test due to safety reasons? Then it would not really be a Young Drivers Test anymore, would it? By all means, I love comedy so let them try. The Mercedes layers would rub their hand and jump up and down in pure unadulterated joy.

[Freung]

But it also means that the tests they did wasn't relevant to this seasons racing as they are not using the tyres tested.

Nice one.!

[andrewf1]

Not true. If the FIA, on safety grounds, removes the restriction on drivers who have participated in more than two Grands Prix participating in the young driver test from the sporting reguations, hey presto the young driver test goes ahead with race drivers, and Mercedes are still banned from it by virtue of the tribunal decision.

that's a ridiculous reason to remove a restriction.
what exactly does safety have to do with whether the cars are driven by regular drivers or young drivers?

[bourbon]

Would be impossible for many reasons. One of them would be that if Merc have a tire failure or maybe a suspension failure in the next race they could sue FiA for plenty. Another reason is that Pirelli is only allowed to test with 2013 cars if all teams are invited.

What do you mean? Brawn said that the test Mercedes participated in with respect to Pirelli, was a test for "all". So too would the refab YDT be a test for all. Mercedes would reap the benefits of whatever information Pirelli obtained from the test. Thus their safety would be just as assured as the safety of all the other teams was when they completed their test.

Other information learned would be obtained by the teams and drivers for their own personal use and Mercedes foregoing that opportunity would be the actual punishment they receive for whatever unfair benefits they obtained from the last test that wasn't for "all" and was used for their own benefit.

[AustinF1]

Wont happen.

The sporting regulations specifically allow the Young Driver Test. The rule states:

"One three day young driver training test carried out on a date and site approved by the FIA following consultation with all teams. No driver who has competed in more than two F1 World Championship races may take part in this test and all drivers must be in possession of an International A Licence."

In order to change the rule and create an exception for changing the Young Driver test in to a real test with real drivers, they'll need unanimous support, and do you really think that Mercedes, who aren't allowed to participate, will give their rivals such a big advantage?

LOL. You have to be fishing with this line.

[bourbon]

This was also part of the article:

F1 race director Charlie Whiting said on Sunday night that there had already been talks about the idea of changing the young driver test plans.

When asked if it was a possibility that race drivers could be allowed, he said: "Yes."

Good to hear.

[Diablobb81]

If the testing conditions are changed for safety reasons then i don't see how Merc can't be allowed to participate. Which would be hilarious.