37 replies to this topic

[kosmos]

Another regulation that is exercising the minds of the scientists is that the fuel flow of these new power units must not exceed 100 kilos per hour and there are concerns this could mark a return to drivers having to save fuel rather than race. “Ferrari feels this could be a danger,” admitted Marmorini. “We like Formula 1 to consider efficiency, but we don’t like Formula 1 to be a sport where you are cruising for 50% of the laps.”

http://formula1.ferr...4-era-f1-engine

Sounds like a lot of fun.

I wonder if a driver will be asked to save his tyres, fuel, engine, and brakes in the same phrase.

[hamsta]

Save everything - just don't bother turning up?

[TomNokoe]

Can't help but think they're trying to artificially create "the good old days".

[Gilles4Ever]

@adamcooperf1: Renault's Rob White told me recently that they don't think cars will be so tight on fuel, apart from the odd track. Different views...

[Gilles4Ever]

Some people can't play nice, please keep on topic

[bonjon1979a]

@adamcooperf1: Renault's Rob White told me recently that they don't think cars will be so tight on fuel, apart from the odd track. Different views...

Yeah, i was thinking that 100 kg is still quite a bit. At the moment they have maximum of 150kg but with far less power coming from the kers system than will do from the Ters systems the cars will be running. Plus, the engines will be far more efficient due to them being direct injection, better management, turbo etc. I don't expect it to be a problem for many races but I'm sure it will be for a few. If it becomes a problem can they not just shorten the races anyway? The FIA seems happy enough to change all sorts mid-season.

Concept of car will determine this as well. If you have a draggy car with lots of downforce you might lose out on fuel efficiency. Some might go for a car with less downforce but can cane it throughout the race. Will be interesting to see which direction the teams go. I think we're going to see a HUGE field spread as the concepts will be so different. Will be interesting/bonkers season. Hopefully, two teams will have done a near equal job otherwise it could be a dull procession for whichever team has done the best job.

Edited by bonjon1979a, 02 July 2013 - 15:31.

[Kalmake]

Flow limit makes it less of an exercise for drivers. They can't just dump fuel at it like in the 80's.

On slowest tracks like Hungaroring they wont be able to use the full 100kg in the race, since only about half the lap is on full throttle.

[Ross Stonefeld]

They've been conserving fuel for most of the last decade.

[ATM_Andy]

No Big Issue.

[Jovanotti]

#ThisIsn'tF1Anymore

[Peter3hg]

How does the carrying over of penalties work? You go to the back of the grid if you change your whole engine but Marmorini says you can't strategically use this as the penalty carries over. So does a whole engine change equal a 21 place grid penalty so if you qualify 11th you'll still have 10 places to drop at the next race?

[tifosi]

In my opinion F1 has become a totally different product from what I enjoyed. I literally make no effort at all to watch the races anymore. On Mondays, I'll sometimes check this forum to see who won. Maybe.

My favorite period of F1 was the late 80s. I loved reading about all the innovations, the fuels, the sticky tyres, the cars that would fall apart after 3 laps. I know it was a cost cutting thing, but it was exciting as hell.

[Kalmake]

In 1988 turbos were limited to 150l ~= 110kg and they did alright against 3.5l normally aspirated with no limit.

[Mauseri]

Can't help but think they're trying to artificially create "the good old days".

Safety car will make evyrything a lottery...

[Buttoneer]

Those interested in understanding this issue from an engineering challenge perspective might do well to listen to this months Motorsport Magazine podcast which discussed just this issue as part of a presentation for Formula Student. You get to hear from James Allison, who you all know, Andy Cowell, Mercedes Engineering Director, and Gordon Day of Williams Hybrid Power, and even Pat Symonds chips in at one point.

https://itunes.apple...t...743854&mt=2

[surbjits]

They've been conserving fuel for most of the last decade.

[Gyno]

F1 is digging it's own grave with this BS green technology.

[spacekid]

I don't mind a fuel limit, so long as it isn't too strict, which this doesn't look.

Am I right that engine development won't be fully frozen until 2018? That leaves space for development to increase fuel efficiency, which is at least more useful research to be throwing cash at than aero winglets.

I'm looking forward to the new regs next year, its a good sort of shake up to the field, hopefully the new engines will be a positive talking point and distract us all from tyres, and the cars might even look a bit better with revised aero.

Quite interested to know how they will sound too!

[spacekid]

F1 is digging it's own grave with this BS green technology.

I'm kinda unsure about it myself. I like the idea of new innovations to improve fuel efficiency in racing, and actually wish teams had been allowed to pursue individual KERS systems. I would have liked to have seen unlimited KERS useage and BHP and just see what the teams can do.

On the other hand, if F1 really wanted to be green they could save seasons worth of fuel by not flying to Abu Dhabi every year. I'd cope.

[JRizzle86]

Fuel flow restrictions aren't the issue here.

The problem will be if the fuel efficiency of the different engines varies but such an extent that the teams ask the drivers to turn the wick down to conserve fuel as they try and minimise the fuel weight at the start of the race.

The problem already exists in F1, hopefully it won't get made worse by the new engines.

[rasul]

@adamcooperf1: Renault's Rob White told me recently that they don't think cars will be so tight on fuel, apart from the odd track. Different views...

Methinks Renault's power unit is just going to be more fuel-efficient.

[superdelphinus]

Did anyone see the bit on Breakfast this morning from Williams hq? Main bit was about how Virgin had been working with their pit stop team to improve train mending or something (which, impressively, reduced train turn around times from a couple of days to about 4 hours), but they were also talking about how KERS like technology will be the next big thing in public transport

[PNSD]

Whats new ?

[George Costanza]

Can't help but think they're trying to artificially create "the good old days".

Which is what, the late 1970s and 1980s?

[George Costanza]

Just go back to the same regulations of 1991-1993...

[nomi]

The feminization of F1 is truly underway

[Ross Stonefeld]

Wtf?

[ElDictatore]

The feminization of F1 is truly underway

The only "feminization" is the fans being overly dramatic over nothing.

[nomi]

The only "feminization" is the fans being overly dramatic over nothing.

And you commented over "nothing" !

I was having my honest 2c which is a true fact.

[Gyno]

If they wanna be greener then dont restrict KERS.
Allow the teams to develope them freely and let them use it as long as they can during one lap and not just x seconds a lap.
Also with the turbos, let the teams develope them and not stop them from developing them once they got the engines built.
Same with DRS let the teams use it when ever where ever for x amount of times through out the race.
INstead of a fixed place on a track.

This is the Only way F1 is gonna save itself from ultimate self destruction.

Most important thing, make the cars look great once again.

[SophieB]

The feminization of F1 is truly underway

Maybe they can hang truck balls from the rear wings of the cars to offset this terrible act of emasculation.

[aray]

may be it is just Ferrari's problem and Renault will keep their fuel efficiency intact in turbo era .....

[One]

100kg per HOUR?

for the sport that unfolds by second?

Is this reg limiting the fuel flow by 27.78g per second or stating the avarage consumption for 1 hour run?

[Fastcake]

They've been fuel saving one way or the other since the cars had fuel gauges. I'm sure they will use even less fuel if possible.

Just go back to the same regulations of 1991-1993...

I'm sure you know that the regulations of 1991 would nowadays produce cars nothing like those of 1991.

Maybe they can hang truck balls from the rear wings of the cars to offset this terrible act of emasculation.

[bonjon1979a]

The feminization of F1 is truly underway

You're SO right, now that the fuel flow limit regulation has opened the flood gate to feminization, whatever next? A pink car. A driver with a pony tail? Heaven forbid we might even see an alice band or two popping up, egads, they'll be allowed in to my golf club next!

[DampMongoose]

One of the best racing series ever, ran on a fuel consumption ruling so it can work! However, I doubt it in F1's case because as soon as Bernie sticks his oar in it'll be down the pan just like how he destroyed Group C...

As for making F1 greener, bringing the races back to Europe where it belongs with only a handful of flyaway races in US, Oz and Japan would save some emissions! Although Bernie is trying to cut travel expenses for the fans by having races in places where nobody travels to watch?!

[Kalmake]

100kg per HOUR?

for the sport that unfolds by second?

Is this reg limiting the fuel flow by 27.78g per second or stating the avarage consumption for 1 hour run?

It's per second or some smaller unit controlled by standard ECU. In theory, maximum consumption per hour is 100kg, but obviously you couldn't go full throttle all the time.

They will have 100kg of fuel for the whole race. This is the part anti-green people should whine about.

In Silverstone 70% of the lap is full throttle. At maximum flow rate you will have fuel for about 1 hour and 25 minutes and then checkered is out anyway.

25 years ago this car had about 110kg fuel, without ERSs obviously. Not a big ask to manage with 10% less now.

[SanDiegoGo]

The only "feminization" is the fans being overly dramatic over nothing.

there does seem to be a lot of handbags being clutched close to the chest over these regulation. i picture les dawson grimacing, as he gossips over the garden fence, about the state of F1.