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Mercedes-AMG 2013 W04 - PART III


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#51 JaredS

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 14:09

Doing a ridiculously quick FP1 time is smart though in some ways. It can, if other teams aren't completely disciplined, almost force or at least tempt them into skewing their programs in FP2 and FP3 towards focusing on quali speed. On a track and with tyres where deg is bad, or in the case of Merc where one lap pace is great and race pace not as good, it would certainly help them if other teams that are traditionally stronger in race pace ignored some of the race setup and went too far towards quali setup.

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#52 Mtom

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 14:10

Lots of understeer on each corner..... which probably means plenty of juice......


Had to, as they pretty much fly on the used rubber in FP1, and now just chugging around after a few laps.
On the first fast laps..the two RB run just 6 laps, and the Mercs did 10.

#53 Markn93

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 14:10

Also Merc were clearly slower on race pace during FP2 at Silverstone, then we know how close/a tad in Merc's favour, it was during the race, today they were closer again, which I think bodes well for the race itself. But they might have to make gains overnight like they have been doing between FP2 and 3 on other weekends if they are to be the class of the field during the stuff that counts.

#54 maverick69

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 14:11

I pretty sure it was mentioned during the session by Ant too, can't wait for qualifying to find out.



Crofty was like "OMG! Where has Mercs pace gone!?". Ant was like "They're stuck in traffic and they look really heavy".

#55 TomNokoe

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 14:12

But they might have to make gains overnight like they have been doing between FP2 and 3 on other weekends if they are to be the class of the field during the stuff that counts.

They've been hanging it on the line and doing this all season. It's a little dangerous. I have faith.

#56 Markn93

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 14:13

Crofty was like "OMG! Where has Mercs pace gone!?". Ant was like "They're stuck in traffic and they look really heavy".

Yeah poor Crofty was working himself up.

#57 SamH123

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 14:14

Race pace looked a little off, although at intelligentf1 he reckoned the Mercs stints were 0.8s down in Fp2 in Silverstone which didn't turn out to be the case for the race

Crofty was like "OMG! Where has Mercs pace gone!?". Ant was like "They're stuck in traffic and they look really heavy".

That was winding me up, Mercedes have never shown strong race pace on Fridays, Croft really isn't the sharpest sometimes :rolleyes:

Also in every dry FP2 & dry Qualifying this season, except Monaco, Mercedes have improved more than Red Bull have between FP2 and quali

So this weekend can still go either way for me.
Did anyone notice if both drivers were running exactly the same car today, i.e. did they both have the new nose?

Edited by SamH123, 05 July 2013 - 14:16.


#58 maverick69

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 14:16

Yeah poor Crofty was working himself up.


Too much sausage according to his peers :lol:

#59 Obi Offiah

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 14:27

Too much sausage according to his peers :lol:

You got in there first.

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#60 maxx7

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 14:35

Very bad pace on long run. And not good on one lap. What happened with mercedes?

#61 Masenco

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 14:37

"It's been a reasonable day of practice for us. This morning went pretty well and the car felt good, but then we made some changes which didn't quite work out for us this afternoon. I'm sure we will be back on form for P3." Lewis Hamilton.

So the pace we saw in FP1 seems to be genuine. Hopefully it reflects in the long run pace also. :up:

#62 senna da silva

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 14:58

"It's been a reasonable day of practice for us. This morning went pretty well and the car felt good, but then we made some changes which didn't quite work out for us this afternoon. I'm sure we will be back on form for P3." Lewis Hamilton.

So the pace we saw in FP1 seems to be genuine. Hopefully it reflects in the long run pace also. :up:


The question mark is how will the car perform with the soft tyres.

#63 weltmeister1995

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 14:59

While the headline times give an indication of each team's qualifying pace, it was the longer runs that provided the chance to assess who is likely to be strong in Sunday's race, with Red Bull predictably good on high fuel. Lotus and Ferrari were also competitive, while Mercedes looked slightly off the pace again.

#64 Szoelloe

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 15:11

Very bad pace on long run. And not good on one lap. What happened with mercedes?


fuel happened, enhanced with wrong setup direction


The question mark is how will the car perform with the soft tyres.


with a higher track temp, the options should last around 10 laps on first stint.

It was about the same for everybody.


#65 Cool Beans

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 15:13

Changing temperatures might possibly affect the Merc tomorrow, remains to be seen.
Have to say they look mighty fast though. Red Bull is the only slight worry, Lotus & Ferrari not.
Even with higher temps they should still be minimum 2-3 in quali, that's how good they looked.
And who knows, maybe even a 1-2 in quali? Looks promising so far
To me it looks like Mercedes has now gotten on top of the tyre eating issue, finally. Yay!
In my opinion Mercedes has also surprisingly become a favourite for the WCC.
Now we just have to wait for FP3 but I doubt the order will change much.
Going to be an interesting race!



#66 senna da silva

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 15:17

with a higher track temp, the options should last around 10 laps on first stint.

It was about the same for everybody.


10 laps might be optimistic, regardless, I think the race will be a two stopper.

#67 slmk

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 15:41

10 laps might be optimistic, regardless, I think the race will be a two stopper.


James Allen reckons Mercedes will 3-stop, while RBR, FER, LOT and FI will 2-stop.

Mercedes favoured the hard tyre at Silverstone, so with last week’s option tyre becoming this weekend’s prime compound Mercedes are likely to be one of those that is forced in to a three-stop race as Red Bull may be capable of just two stops, along with Ferrari, Lotus and Force India.



#68 SanDiegoGo

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 15:45

Yeah poor Crofty was working himself up.



the problem with sky is that they have to make mountains out of mole hills. they are practically told to do so by producers. they have make it seem like free practice is a big deal and that you should be watching this channel and you should be glad to pay for it. they have to sell this channel. free practice is an unremarkable thing but sky have paid a lot to send production teams and presenters to cover it like its a big deal.

#69 alframsey

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 15:55

I expect Merc to be the team to beat this weekend and that Lewis will take his first win of the season and first with Merc, not sure why I expect this but I have always been a optimist.

#70 senna da silva

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 15:57

James Allen reckons Mercedes will 3-stop, while RBR, FER, LOT and FI will 2-stop.


Lets hope he's wrong.

#71 Obi Offiah

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 16:02

Lets hope he's wrong.

Mercedes didn't have wear problems in Silverstone and could have two stopped. Lewis did two stop but had help from the safety car. Ted Kravitz thought the Mercedes cars would three stop last weekend to.

#72 senna da silva

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 17:48

Mercedes didn't have wear problems in Silverstone and could have two stopped. Lewis did two stop but had help from the safety car. Ted Kravitz thought the Mercedes cars would three stop last weekend to.


That's my line of thought, however the compounds are softer this week.

#73 superdelphinus

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 18:01

If they can run fast and hard on three stops and be in the mix at the end then I think that's great. Isn't that what these tyres were supposed to promote?

#74 MaCamZaF1

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 18:04

If they can run fast and hard on three stops and be in the mix at the end then I think that's great. Isn't that what these tyres were supposed to promote?


I agree, just because some of the top teams may try and do a 2-stop doesn't mean everyone has to follow... I think it would suit them to try and run a fast 3-stop.

#75 race addicted

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 18:12

A pitstop costs 20-21 seconds here. I think they'll get enough pace-bonus from three-stopping to cover Lotus and Ferrari, but I doubt it'll be enough to get Red Bull, but the question is if they'll have a bigger or smaller chance of doing that by two-stopping together with the rest.

...if indeed two-stopping will be the norm, but some very good long-runs on the prime today suggests it will be.

#76 Szoelloe

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 19:00

I don't think we're gonna get any answers until Q3!


IMHO it will only be on Sunday.


A pitstop costs 20-21 seconds here. I think they'll get enough pace-bonus from three-stopping to cover Lotus and Ferrari, but I doubt it'll be enough to get Red Bull, but the question is if they'll have a bigger or smaller chance of doing that by two-stopping together with the rest.

...if indeed two-stopping will be the norm, but some very good long-runs on the prime today suggests it will be.


Nah, that's the problem with these tyres really. You have to have a very considerable pace advantage to make the 3 stopper work. That may pay off in some cases in the midfield, but you have to assume that Mercedes can pull off and keep up more than a 1sec/lap pace advantage for a full stint against Red Bull, if we conveniently forget the other top teams. The options don't last long enough, so a reverse tyre strategy is out of question, on the same tires the pace difference is just not there, because they last too long, and because Red Bull is fast.


#77 NoDivergence

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 20:33

The tires may last "too long" but Hamilton pushing them to the max without any consideration for conservation can be that gap. Very possible.

#78 Szoelloe

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 20:40

The tires may last "too long" but Hamilton pushing them to the max without any consideration for conservation can be that gap. Very possible.


I don't think that's possible, but if you are right, and Merc actually exploit it, I'll be your humble servant for a season. Hope dies last.


#79 race addicted

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 20:52

Nah, that's the problem with these tyres really. You have to have a very considerable pace advantage to make the 3 stopper work. That may pay off in some cases in the midfield, but you have to assume that Mercedes can pull off and keep up more than a 1sec/lap pace advantage for a full stint against Red Bull, if we conveniently forget the other top teams. The options don't last long enough, so a reverse tyre strategy is out of question, on the same tires the pace difference is just not there, because they last too long, and because Red Bull is fast.


In the midfield? That's not exactly where you're trying to make a three-stopper work.
It's not a too outlandish thought, to three-stop, and that model will be in the race-simulations, undoubtedly. Pulling away from pole, you should have three, four seconds by the end of the first stint, which leaves 17-18 seconds to be found for the rest of the race, though ideally before you make your last stop, so that you come out ahead.




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#80 bauss

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 21:04

the only way a 3 stop might work will be if they put on the softs for say the last stint and for like 5 laps are 2 secs faster than the rest...

but I think they should be able to 2 stop.... they did 25 laps on the hards in the morning... the weather was cooler but Rosberg was able to still pull a good time on his 24th lap or so... so who knows.

Good to hear the drivers are not overly concerned at the pace in FP2

#81 Szoelloe

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 21:09

the only way a 3 stop might work will be if they put on the softs for say the last stint and for like 5 laps are 2 secs faster than the rest...

but I think they should be able to 2 stop.... they did 25 laps on the hards in the morning... the weather was cooler but Rosberg was able to still pull a good time on his 24th lap or so... so who knows.

Good to hear the drivers are not overly concerned at the pace in FP2


Yep, that's something I noticed too. Quite relaxed statements. Not the ordiary defensive ones. Q3 should be somewhat informative.


#82 bourbon

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 21:14

In the midfield? That's not exactly where you're trying to make a three-stopper work.
It's not a too outlandish thought, to three-stop, and that model will be in the race-simulations, undoubtedly. Pulling away from pole, you should have three, four seconds by the end of the first stint, which leaves 17-18 seconds to be found for the rest of the race, though ideally before you make your last stop, so that you come out ahead.


3-4 seconds at the end of the first stint on softs? Based on what?

Edited by bourbon, 05 July 2013 - 21:14.


#83 race addicted

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 21:20

Based on the leading car often having an easier job of pulling out a gap.

#84 TomNokoe

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 22:00

The options don't last long enough, so a reverse tyre strategy is out of question.

I've been thinking about this. Today, the softs were decent for 5-7 laps, but they had already done 1/2 flyers and a couple of slower laps, so the the edge was definitely gone. A more rubbered in track and warmer temps alongside a *brand spanking new* set... 10-12 laps maybe? Which is a respectable stint length, but sacrificing quali speed and qualifying on the medium to save that set for later on in the race. Webber did 24 laps on high fuel on his used mediums, so there shouldn't be any problems in the first stint, and say a Merc qualifies Top 6 on the mediums then they should be to inherit the lead minus 5/6 seconds after the leaders come in early. Now you'd presume that those starting 11th downwards (and even possibly the lower realms of Q3) are gonna pull the same trick, so say when the leaders make their first stop they get held up for 5-10 laps battling traffic, then the Mercs need to scamper off around laps 10-25 to try and eat back the deficit to make up a pitstop, and then they could try and work things from there. My theory would be the second they have that pitstop in hand (if ever) they've got to make it and try and make it to lap 50 with around a 15-20 sec advantage but with one final switch to the brand new softs, which on a rubbered in track, shouldn't cause too many problems.

Its just a theory. :stoned:

Edited by TomNokoe, 05 July 2013 - 22:01.


#85 Seanspeed

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 22:06

A more rubbered in track and warmer temps alongside a *brand spanking new* set... 10-12 laps maybe?

This has never really worked out in practice.

#86 Spoch

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 23:08

one safety car and all these permutations are down the toilet! the team should adopt a strategy they can attack with not a defensive one

Edited by Spoch, 05 July 2013 - 23:10.


#87 pingu666

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 02:23

a start on hard tyres very rarely works, youll gain time on the softs, pit and get fresh tyres, thatll be faster than the older tyres on the other guy.
soft tyres at end also mean you gotta charge hard to get back what you gave up at the start

#88 Disgrace

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 03:15

Interesting new nose on the car. Every team (McLaren last year, now Sauber and Mercedes this year) in the last two years that has started the season with a lower nose hasn't ended the season with one.

#89 Obi Offiah

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 08:29

Interesting new nose on the car. Every team (McLaren last year, now Sauber and Mercedes this year) in the last two years that has started the season with a lower nose hasn't ended the season with one.

RBR have lowered their nose albeit they have a step. I think this may be because their current aero philosophy is more limited with regard to maximum airflow in this region.

#90 braderzf50

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 10:16

Does anyone think that the tyres has affected Merc's pace a little or is Red Bull just on another planet this weekend?

#91 TomNokoe

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 10:17

Does anyone think that the tyres has affected Merc's pace a little or is Red Bull just on another planet this weekend?

I just think they've lost their setup. I think Rosberg has another few tenths in him, but nowhere near Vettel. Hamilton? I don't even know.

#92 Szoelloe

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 10:17

Does anyone think that the tyres has affected Merc's pace a little or is Red Bull just on another planet this weekend?


It could be both


#93 SamH123

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 10:19

This track is more technical and less about power than Silverstone
That makes it sound like a RB track

I'm still not convinced though. Rosberg's 1'31''9 in FP1 on the mediums on about lap 24. Even if he was almost out of fuel, 2.4s faster considering soft tires, more rubber and better familiarisation of the track should not be totally unachievable

Edited by SamH123, 06 July 2013 - 10:26.


#94 Fangiola

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 10:26

what happened to their setup from FP1. Why didn't they just go with that??

#95 race addicted

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 10:27

If the track is changed a little, yesterday's set-up might not work anymore.

#96 Masenco

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 10:28

what happened to their setup from FP1. Why didn't they just go with that??


Hopefully they'll make some positive changes to Lewis' setup after fp3, even if they just change it to match Nico's

#97 JaredS

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 10:29

If the track is changed a little, yesterday's set-up might not work anymore.


It also depends a lot on how sensitive or how wide a working range the car has. It looks like Red Bull clearly has the widest working range. Ferrari used to look pretty good with that but not recently. Merc and Lotus seem very sensitive, being very quick when they get it spot on but completely off the pace if even slightly off.

#98 Fangiola

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 10:30

If the track is changed a little, yesterday's set-up might not work anymore.


to be honest not sure what that means "Changed" besides temp and rubber being laid down, what else could change


#99 race addicted

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 10:38

to be honest not sure what that means "Changed" besides temp and rubber being laid down, what else could change


Yep, temperatures and more rubber in the asphalt, but along with that, wind-direction. Also, third free is done at 11, second free at 14, which means different parts of the track will be cast in shadow. Sometimes trivial things like that can actually have a say, but I'm not sure it is here. I doubt that.

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#100 KiloWatt

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 10:41

to be honest not sure what that means "Changed" besides temp and rubber being laid down, what else could change


Haha, you say tyres and and temperature like they're not important... :p