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Mercedes-AMG 2013 W04 - PART III


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#101 MMandi

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 10:42

Might be a tyre thing, won't be surprised to see it all shift again between Redbull and Mercedes

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#102 Mtom

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 10:43

Hopefully they'll make some positive changes to Lewis' setup after fp3, even if they just change it to match Nico's


:| I really hope so, looks so bad now

#103 Vesuvius

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 10:44

Hopefully they'll make some positive changes to Lewis' setup after fp3, even if they just change it to match Nico's


did you think that maybe his problems are even worse if he uses Nico's setups.

#104 Fangiola

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 10:55

Haha, you say tyres and and temperature like they're not important... :p


But temps are never constant, always changing day to day. besides temps were more or less the same between FP1 and FP3 and yet they struggled in FP3.

whatever it is I hope they nail it down cos right now even the lotus and ferrari are laying claim to the 2nd row.

Quali will be tough

Edited by Fangiola, 06 July 2013 - 10:57.


#105 PretentiousBread

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 11:04

I still don't buy into this, Hamilton did a 1:31.7 in FP1 on primes, if i'm not mistaken the best time they've done on primes since then has been a 1:31.5 with Rosberg today? So they've found 2 tenths, when Red Bull have found the guts of 2 seconds on primes since FP1? I still think Merc are keeping their powder dry, although Hamilton clearly was struggling with setup in any case, but i'd be amazed if fuel loads aren't exaggerating his gap to Vettel.

Edited by PretentiousBread, 06 July 2013 - 11:05.


#106 SamH123

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 11:08

^^ the RBs did 1'31'2s today but you'd expect 5tenths improvement since then

will be stunned if RB are 6 tenths ahead come this afternoon.

#107 race addicted

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 11:10

I'm 99% sure Hamilton and Rosberg were running the same fuel load in third free. I strongly doubt any team differentiate between their two cars in the last free practice session, unless they for instance have problems with balance on high fuel.

It's intriguing that laptime they pulled off in first free, but even if they've been running heavier, have they really done it to the tune of six, seven tenths??

Edited by race addicted, 06 July 2013 - 11:10.


#108 Mtom

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 11:14

did you think that maybe his problems are even worse if he uses Nico's setups.


I think they may tried to go to different directions with the rwo cars in fp3.
Common sense tells me to send bothx cars to qualy with nicos setup.
Or they can try to improve Lewis's setup, but thats a jump to the unknown again...

#109 jjcale

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 11:18

I still don't buy into this, Hamilton did a 1:31.7 in FP1 on primes, if i'm not mistaken the best time they've done on primes since then has been a 1:31.5 with Rosberg today? So they've found 2 tenths, when Red Bull have found the guts of 2 seconds on primes since FP1? I still think Merc are keeping their powder dry, although Hamilton clearly was struggling with setup in any case, but i'd be amazed if fuel loads aren't exaggerating his gap to Vettel.


Or they have completely fecked setting the car up .... am watching the engineering very closely after failing find a set up in Barca - of all places.

#110 alframsey

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 11:19

For some reason I really don't think the RBR are as far ahead as people think they are, Merc have more in hand and especially with Lewis. Could be completely wrong though, it's just a hunch.

#111 Masenco

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 11:22

did you think that maybe his problems are even worse if he uses Nico's setups.


As long as Nico's setup is reasonable, which it does seem so, then Lewis will be able to get it up there.

#112 race addicted

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 11:28

I think you take too lightly to just copying your team-mates set-up. For Hamilton to drive with Rosberg's set-up here, could be like writing with the other hand!
Certain traits might be the same, but it can still be greatly different overall. Diff settings, how stiff you want the springs etc, these things will greatly affect the balance on different parts of the track, and the effect it has on car behaviour can go completely against your instinct.

Edited by race addicted, 06 July 2013 - 11:28.


#113 Masenco

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 11:37

I think you take too lightly to just copying your team-mates set-up. For Hamilton to drive with Rosberg's set-up here, could be like writing with the other hand!
Certain traits might be the same, but it can still be greatly different overall. Diff settings, how stiff you want the springs etc, these things will greatly affect the balance on different parts of the track, and the effect it has on car behaviour can go completely against your instinct.


I agree with you in that different drivers like their car setup in different ways, but i think atm in fp3 the setup on Lewis' car clearly wasn't working very well, and Lewis is very good at adapting to different setups; therefore I think it makes sense to put him on Nico's setup which seemed to be a lot more balanced.

That's my armchair opinion anyway :cool:


#114 KiloWatt

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 11:37

Maybe the upgrades changed the balance and they've not honed the setup yet... Needless to say, I don't think we're in for another Silverstone weekend. Maybe a bit closer to canada...

Edit:
It just struck me, we're dissapointed with being second or third fastest. Now is that progress or is it progress?

Edited by KiloWatt, 06 July 2013 - 11:38.


#115 braderzf50

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 11:42

Just hoping they can land a lucky setup that makes the car come alive. :)

#116 Szoelloe

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 11:43

Maybe the upgrades changed the balance and they've not honed the setup yet... Needless to say, I don't think we're in for another Silverstone weekend. Maybe a bit closer to canada...

Edit:
It just struck me, we're dissapointed with being second or third fastest. Now is that progress or is it progress?


yaye. +1


#117 race addicted

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 11:45

Edit:
It just struck me, we're dissapointed with being second or third fastest. Now is that progress or is it progress?


Depends how you look at it. I look at the gaps, not the position. If Vettel end up qualifying close to seven tenths ahead, I'll be dissapointed even if being second or third on the grid is an improvement over where they were for most of last season.
....but I don't think Red Bull will enjoy that big a gap in qualifying now, but I think they'll be the quickest.

If they manifest a superiority on this track, I expect Hungary to be more of the same. (Remember 2010? -hopefully it won|t be as one-sided as it was then, 'cause little points to that.)

#118 KiloWatt

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 12:02

Depends how you look at it. I look at the gaps, not the position. If Vettel end up qualifying close to seven tenths ahead, I'll be dissapointed even if being second or third on the grid is an improvement over where they were for most of last season.
....but I don't think Red Bull will enjoy that big a gap in qualifying now, but I think they'll be the quickest.


Granted, but it still feels a lot better than being slaughtered at 2 seconds per lap and seeing not only Red Bull, but McLaren, Ferrari, Lotus and (late 2012) Force - ****ing - India dissapearing down the road.

#119 teejay

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 13:02

p1!

Didnt see that coming after p3 :D

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#120 SamH123

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 13:04

Vettel was slower than FP3, he must have crushed that FP3 lap

Mercedes still the indisputed kings of dry qualifying. Awesome, some of us ride the FPs far too much

#121 KiloWatt

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 13:12

Yay mercedes and LH. F**k, I lost a bet. :confused:

#122 baddog

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 13:21

Oh look, Mercedes amateur hour is back.

#123 Fangiola

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 13:22

wonder how his new setup is with regards to race pace. I mean he never tried this new setup on any long runs.

#124 race addicted

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 13:24

What a turn-around! Great effort from all involved. Shame about Rosberg, but when it is like it is, I think he can have a veeeery good race from there, obviously starting on the primes.

#125 slmk

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 13:26

Lewis' lap was close to the limit. Still oversteer present.

#126 TomNokoe

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 13:27

Mercedes still the indisputed kings of dry qualifying. Awesome, some of us ride the FPs far too much

Vettel should of had it today.

#127 P123

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 13:28

Oh look, Mercedes amateur hour is back.


Yeah, terrible for Nico, but in fairness to Merc the track evolved hugely in the closing minutes of the session, with even the late running Vettel being nudged from 1st down to 4th. Being 0.1s behind Webber it did look like he was safe. You wouldn't normally figure any would go faster than the Bulls given their practice pace.

#128 Zoetrope

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 13:29

+ Lewis set-up recovery
- Not putting Nico back on track

#129 PretentiousBread

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 13:32

Yeah, terrible for Nico, but in fairness to Merc the track evolved hugely in the closing minutes of the session, with even the late running Vettel being nudged from 1st down to 4th. Being 0.1s behind Webber it did look like he was safe. You wouldn't normally figure any would go faster than the Bulls given their practice pace.


I don't believe that, I reckon the temperature went up just helping lotus and ferrari switch on their options. Vettel's Q3 time was barely anything better than his FP3 time, doesn't suggest much of a track evolution as the lap times at the end of Q2 would, unless it was something else i.e. the track temps.

Edited by PretentiousBread, 06 July 2013 - 13:33.


#130 Lamag

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 13:34

It was an amazing job by Lewis.

There is no way to excuse Mercedes for destroy Rosberg weekend, the man has a real shoot for the Pole and the team screw up. Sometimes a would love to see Rosberg being more bad ass with the team.

Hope for a great recovery by him tomorrow and a victory from Hamilton.

#131 SamH123

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 13:34

Vettel should of had it today.


yeah but they're 6/6 for dry quali, you know what I meant.

Looking at the the way the track changed today, an alternate strategy for Rosberg is surely the best bet?

#132 Obi Offiah

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 13:35

wonder how his new setup is with regards to race pace. I mean he never tried this new setup on any long runs.

That is the big unknown, the big worry as well as RBR's race pace.

#133 Szoelloe

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 13:37

That is the big unknown, the big worry as well as RBR's race pace.


"I am not sure we have the right balance for the race.." - Brawn

#134 PretentiousBread

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 13:37

It was an amazing job by Lewis.

There is no way to excuse Mercedes for destroy Rosberg weekend, the man has a real shoot for the Pole and the team screw up. Sometimes a would love to see Rosberg being more bad ass with the team.

Hope for a great recovery by him tomorrow and a victory from Hamilton.



Two things I think do excuse them:

1. Rosberg's lap wasn't good enough
2. Rosberg admitted himself after qualifying that he was shocked by the level of improvement by those around him at the end of Q2.

I don't think this falls into the same category of idiocy witnessed so often at McLaren over the years.

#135 NateF

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 13:37

Can't remember who said it, might have been Rosberg, mentioning that the tyres for this weekend not suiting them

#136 Lamag

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 14:03

Two things I think do excuse them:

1. Rosberg's lap wasn't good enough
2. Rosberg admitted himself after qualifying that he was shocked by the level of improvement by those around him at the end of Q2.

I don't think this falls into the same category of idiocy witnessed so often at McLaren over the years.



You are wrong.

The lap was good enough because he was right behind Hamilton. You are not taking into account that track's evolution was the key point. When Rosberg did his lap time he was ahead of the 80% of the field.
Is team's responsibility to keep monitorizing track's evolution in order to avoid this kind of situation.

#137 alframsey

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 14:05

You are wrong.

The lap was good enough because he was right behind Hamilton. You are not taking into account that track's evolution was the key point. When Rosberg did his lap time he was ahead of the 80% of the field.
Is team's responsibility to keep monitorizing track's evolution in order to avoid this kind of situation.

Rarely do I agree with anything you say but here, I agree wholeheartedly! 100% you are correct.

#138 slmk

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 14:05

You are wrong.

The lap was good enough because he was right behind Hamilton. You are not taking into account that track's evolution was the key point. When Rosberg did his lap time he was ahead of the 80% of the field.
Is team's responsibility to keep monitorizing track's evolution in order to avoid this kind of situation.


He was 2 tenths off LH. That's not right behind, at least not on this track.

#139 Lamag

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 14:40

He was 2 tenths off LH. That's not right behind, at least not on this track.


He was right behind in the standing. Nonetheless Rosberg was ahead of the 80% of the field.

There is no way to put some responsibility on Rosberg. It was 100% team' s fault.

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#140 Szoelloe

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 14:56

It was the team's fault. As soon as they saw the times set by Lotus and Ferrari, it was evident a run is needed. There is nothing anyone can do about it now. Let's just move on.

#141 mlsnoopy

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 15:01

It was the team's fault. As soon as they saw the times set by Lotus and Ferrari, it was evident a run is needed. There is nothing anyone can do about it now. Let's just move on.


But did they have enough time to get Rosberg out on track and start a lap?

#142 rko281

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 15:12

But did they have enough time to get Rosberg out on track and start a lap?

They did have. If I remember correctly, after the first run Rosberg was 1place behind Kimi and they started to drop places as others were out posting better times. And I was thinking about Kimi that he needs to go out again because it's not going to be enough. So Kimi went out pretty late also. I can not understand why they didn't send Nico. It was pretty obvious, especially when Lotus sent both their cars again and the times were improving really fast.

Edited by rko281, 06 July 2013 - 15:13.


#143 bauss

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 15:14

it wasnt 100% team fault if Nico could theoretically do a better lap.

Nevertheless it was mainly team fault though by the time I saw sht was getting real, it was almost too late to go out and put in a lap. Track generally doesn't evolve so massively, team fault but forgivable. definitely not on the level of cockups we witnessed by Mac last year.

I wonder if it is the track/conditions or tires... but pack looks much closer on one lap compared to last week... which worries me in terms of race pace. but lets hope upgrades and setup help and team can do well tmrw.

seems the bulls do like these tires better, probably not surprising given how well they did on them last year

#144 Kelateboy

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 15:21

seems the bulls do like these tires better, probably not surprising given how well they did on them last year

These are not the same rear tyres as last year. Same structural construction in kevlar belting but with 2013 compound.

#145 Szoelloe

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 15:25

These are not the same rear tyres as last year. Same structural construction in kevlar belting but with 2013 compound.


Hmmm, no. That is to come from Hungary onwards. Thes are basically in-between. More like the Silverstone spec with kevlar. The tyres supplied from the Hungarian GP onwards, are the 2012 spec in shape and construction, but 2013 compounds.


#146 femi

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 15:35

Can't remember who said it, might have been Rosberg, mentioning that the tyres for this weekend not suiting them


He said they lost some performance in qualy but race pace is or should be better.

#147 PretentiousBread

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 15:42

You are wrong.

The lap was good enough because he was right behind Hamilton. You are not taking into account that track's evolution was the key point. When Rosberg did his lap time he was ahead of the 80% of the field.
Is team's responsibility to keep monitorizing track's evolution in order to avoid this kind of situation.


All i'm saying is that the level of improvement from the others could not be foreseen, the indications from practice and previous qualifying form were that Merc were almost a second quicker than Lotus and Ferrari, and even further clear of McLaren. The track doesn't ramp up by this amount normally in the space of a few minutes. As I said, Rosberg himself said he was shocked by the others' improvement, so he was basically of the same opinion as his team's strategists, only with hindsight it's easy to say they should have gone out again, but that wasn't obvious at all when he was sitting in the garage as the others were beginning their final laps. Then as the green sector times started flashing up it was too late for him to go out again.

He would have been planning on doing two runs on fresh tyres in Q3, that's why he was so shocked to be out - all their plans were being made on the assumption that Rosberg would easily make it into Q3 - his pace was such that he was expected to be fighting for pole, Q2 was expected to be something of a formality. Rosberg's best lap was a full 1s off Hamilton's eventual pole time, yet Vettel's Q3 time was barely faster at all than his FP3 lap, so people are exaggerating this 'track evolution', like it magically rubbered up to the tune of about a second in the space of a couple of minutes. It can be reasonably assumed that Rosberg could have gone faster in Q2 on his first run, and as explained above, Mercedes had every reason to believe one run was enough in Q2.

EDIT: So to clarify, it was ultimately a team error, but a very understandable one, and since Rosberg didn't get in but Hamilton did, you can't lay the blame squarely at the team.

Edited by PretentiousBread, 06 July 2013 - 15:47.


#148 Fangiola

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 16:10

I still maintain it was a team error. As the track was evolving they should have taken note. and when there was only about 2 minutes left they should have taken a decision to at least put him out on track cos around that time he was already down to 6th position with a lot of cars out on. its better to be out there when times are tumbling down than be sat in the garage.

this was definitely a team miscalculation and hence team fault

#149 gtbred

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 16:15

So how long before these softs loose contact with the track?

#150 study

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 16:26

Lewis' lap was close to the limit. Still oversteer present.


Is that better for the race though.