116 replies to this topic

[1Devil1]

Mercedes seems strong and a win is likely in Germany. Right now I am happy for team and the drivers but I can't get off the feeling of bitter taste. It doesn't feel right because of the whole testing story. The worst thing about it you clearly don't know if they would have still made this progress without the test. At the moment it is an easy assumption to believe it was all because of the test they did. I have the feeling if Mercedes will win this championship (drivers or constructors) it will forever have a big question mark - much bigger than Red Bull's in the last years. What do you think what will people think if Mercedes win - will it put them in the same category as Benetton in 1994?

[Diablobb81]

Why would Benetton's win be tainted?

[r4mses]

a) they wont win the championship(s) - unfortunately
b) even if they do, nobody except for some hardcore fans of Ferrari and RBR (maybe McLaren) will care. Everyone else will forget about the test by christmas. If they still remeber the test today.

[seahawk]

Not at all. A second WDC for Lewis is long overdue.

[DampMongoose]

I like the bloke for his ability and straightforward approach but has Ross Brawn won a championship without some sort of controversy? Illegal Traction Control, Illegal Fuel rig, Bespoke Goodyear's, Ferrari Team Orders, Double Diffusers? But has there ever been a F1 championship without some controversy? You can find controversy in every F1 championship from 1950 onwards... I don't see this year being any different, the FIA have ruled rightly or wrongly and those are the cards to play!

[stanga]

Mercedes seems strong and a win is likely in Germany. Right now I am happy for team and the drivers but I can't get off the feeling of bitter taste. It doesn't feel right because of the whole testing story. The worst thing about it you clearly don't know if they would have still made this progress without the test. At the moment it is an easy assumption to believe it was all because of the test they did. I have the feeling if Mercedes will win this championship (drivers or constructors) it will forever have a big question mark - much bigger than Red Bull's in the last years. What do you think what will people think if Mercedes win - will it put them in the same category as Benetton in 1994?

Holy jumping to foregone conclusions, batman!

[Grundle]

I hope so, as it will mean they have won
Go cheaters

[Watkins74]

I vote:

Hamilton WDC - tainted cheater's

Rosberg WDC - Well earned victory

[Rikhart]

Of course it will, what other team got effectively an extra FULL pre season test? Oh, but its certainly coincidence all their tyre degradation problems magically vanished after those 1000 kms right?

[Lamag]

Not at all. A second WDC for Lewis is long overdue.

Not at all. A first WDC for Nico is long overdue.

[Diablobb81]

Of course it will, what other team got effectively an extra FULL pre season test? Oh, but its certainly coincidence all their tyre degradation problems magically vanished after those 1000 kms right?

Ferrari every year?

[sock22]

Of course it will, what other team got effectively an extra FULL pre season test? Oh, but its certainly coincidence all their tyre degradation problems magically vanished after those 1000 kms right?

What is a coincidence is that Red Bull's tyre issues vanished at the same time as Mercedes', without a tyre test. Maybe the test wasn't as important as some would like to make out.

[wrighty]

No

Will this bitter taste in your mouth go away once the other teams have done their test?

[David1976]

No.

Wait until after the 3 day test at Silverstone. It could all change again...

[1Devil1]

Sorry guys I can't believe you as Hamilton or Mercedes fans you would happy to take a win that in some way is tainted - every fan would take a championship without controversy because that would put more focus on the drivers or team performance.

[DampMongoose]

Sorry guys I can't believe you as Hamilton or Mercedes fans you would happy to take a win that in some way is tainted - every fan would take a championship without controversy because that would put more focus on the drivers or team performance.

Try and name a championship without controversy...

[Trust]

It could all change if Pirelli decides to change things one more time. They can choose softer compounds for the rest of the year. Imagine Nirburgring with super softs and softs. I think it would create the same effect as Barcelona made. Though, this move would be very unlikely.

[Grundle]

Sorry guys I can't believe you as Hamilton or Mercedes fans you would happy to take a win that in some way is tainted - every fan would take a championship without controversy because that would put more focus on the drivers or team performance.

They still had to build the fastest racing car. It's not like they cheated on track, ala Singapore 09,94. Car is completely legal as well.

[EMorris]

Sorry guys I can't believe you as Hamilton or Mercedes fans you would happy to take a win that in some way is tainted - every fan would take a championship without controversy because that would put more focus on the drivers or team performance.

Are you happy with Vettel and Red Bulls 'tainted' championships? Flexi wings, adjustable ride height, flouting RRA

[P123]

I vote:

Hamilton WDC - tainted cheater's

Rosberg WDC - Well earned victory

That's pretty much how it will be.

[1Devil1]

Try and name a championship without controversy...

It comes down to your definition of controversy - you always have a dispute of technical regulations - it's part of the game if Formula One. Planetf1 ranked this testgate as third biggest scandal of all times in formula one. For me that's a more than a "small" technical dispute

[PretentiousBread]

If they were found to be running an illegal car then yes, but otherwise no. They did one illegal tyre test, but it has been confirmed that they did not know what compounds were being used, and they're banned from the Silverstone test. I would hardly call any title win 'tainted'.

[DampMongoose]

It comes down to your definition of controversy - you always have a dispute of technical regulations - it's part of the game if Formula One. Planetf1 ranked this testgate as third biggest scandal of all times in formula one. For me that's a more than a "small" technical dispute

PlanetF1 are the biggest waste of F1 server space on the net... I wouldn't take anything they 'report' as gospel!

[Gilles4Ever]

Please discuss the topic, a one word answer not a discussion, do not comment on the quality or validity of the thread, Emoticons are not discussing.

[EMorris]

It comes down to your definition of controversy - you always have a dispute of technical regulations - it's part of the game if Formula One. Planetf1 ranked this testgate as third biggest scandal of all times in formula one. For me that's a more than a "small" technical dispute

Do you really believe it is? Crashgate, Spygate, Schumacher parking it at Monaco, Renault Spygate, Honda's hidden fuel tank to name a few more blatant attempts to cheat.

This was more a misinterpretation and misunderstanding than a genuine attempt to cheat

[Andy35]

Shouldn't the question be

If Mercedes win the WDC or WCC will the FIA be tainted once again like wins in ( put about 20 years in a list here where the FIA "rules" and I use that word loosely) , caused problems.


FIA this year.

Make the tyres last not as long so to make a great spectacle!
No tyre testing
Ok apart from testing for safety etc as due to no tyre testing and making things closer to the edge things keep going wrong.
No, you just tested then, even though we said you should be able to, that was wrong. Not the tests our officials were saying would be ok. Delamination? Only affects Max's bottom on a night in with the non Nazi ladies.
Definitely no testing now. Tougher rules.
Ok, the tyres are exploding, more tyre testing please. Not you Mercedes, I was talking to the rest. Lots more testing please.

Who knows what the FIA will say next week.....

Andy

Edited by Andy35, 05 July 2013 - 11:09.

[undersquare]

Ferrari won 2007 with their flexi floor points. So no. Not to say rbr with their flexible wings floors and dodgy engine maps. It would be one of the cleaner championships.

[DampMongoose]

It comes down to your definition of controversy - you always have a dispute of technical regulations - it's part of the game if Formula One. Planetf1 ranked this testgate as third biggest scandal of all times in formula one. For me that's a more than a "small" technical dispute

1. A dispute, especially a public one, between sides holding opposing views.

The FIA have made a decision, some people think its not appropriate, some do! Opposing views... I think Senna should have been disqualified for taking Prost out in 1990, but I also think his win should have stood in 1989, Schumacher should have been Dq'd from 1994, Moss was right to protest against Hawthorn's disqualification losing the championship in '58, Mclarens £100 million fine (95 for Ron being a dick) was wrong, Double diffuser, all far larger controversies than this for me... the only way this is a major controversy is if you started watching F1 yesterday!

[1Devil1]

Do you really believe it is? Crashgate, Spygate, Schumacher parking it at Monaco, Renault Spygate, Honda's hidden fuel tank to name a few more blatant attempts to cheat.

This was more a misinterpretation and misunderstanding than a genuine attempt to cheat

Do you really believe it was a misinterpretation (black helmets, no transparency etc.) ? We don't need to discuss it again this was done million of times in the other threads. For me it was no misinterpretation or in other words a forced misinterpretation.

[1Devil1]

1. A dispute, especially a public one, between sides holding opposing views.

The FIA have made a decision, some people think its not appropriate, some do! Opposing views... I think Senna should have been disqualified for taking Prost out in 1990, but I also think his win should have stood in 1989, Schumacher should have been Dq'd from 1994, Moss was right to protest against Hawthorn's disqualification losing the championship in '58, Mclarens £100 million fine (95 for Ron being a dick) was wrong, Double diffuser, all far larger controversies than this for me... the only way this is a major controversy is if you started watching F1 yesterday!

Sorry, you have your opinion (or your own gospel) I didn't start watching Formula One yesterday. Nice conclusion to force the the other user into the corner. I guess we can find a lot of people here on this board that see testgate as major controversy - and they didn't start watch Formula One yesterday. I respect your opinion but it's not the one and only..

[EMorris]

Do you really believe it was a misinterpretation (black helmets, no transparency etc.) ? We don't need to discuss it again this was done million of times in the other threads. For me it was no misinterpretation or in other words a forced misinterpretation.

OK granted. Is this any different from forced misinterpretation of technical rules? For me no and therefore if Mercedes did manage to win the WDC/WCC this year then I have no problem with it

[Jamiednm]

No, because every other team will get a full blown 3 day test this season, without Mercedes involvement.

/thread.

[redreni]

Of course it will, what other team got effectively an extra FULL pre season test? Oh, but its certainly coincidence all their tyre degradation problems magically vanished after those 1000 kms right?

Mercedes weren't the only ones suffering from excessive deg in Spain. Mclaren were badly hit too. Mclaren's problems have also magically disappeared. In fact, no team has suffered Barcelona-style excessive deg since Barcelona. This reflects track characterisics and the normal pattern of teams getting a handle on how to use the tyres as we get into the European season. It happened last year. It happened in 2011. It's not a surprise.

[jrg19]

This thread could look silly after Hungarian GP.

[P123]

There's controversy in just about every championship, whether that be direct championship manipulation from the FIA, questionnable technical interpretations, floppy wings, professional fouls, etc.

Edited by P123, 05 July 2013 - 11:28.

[wrighty]

This thread could look silly after Hungarian GP.

needn't wait that long, it looks pretty silly now ;)

[DampMongoose]

Sorry, you have your opinion (or your own gospel) I didn't start watching Formula One yesterday. Nice conclusion to force the the other user into the corner. I guess we can find a lot of people here on this board that see testgate as major controversy - and they didn't start watch Formula One yesterday. I respect your opinion but it's not the one and only..

I don't expect everyone to share my opinion, if everyone thought alike controversy wouldn't exist would it and we wouldn't be talking about this?

This situation has obviously polarized opinion somewhat as every ruling in F1 seems to, but in the history of F1 I personally don't see it as particularly major compared to dozens of other situations in the past. If you are happy that PlanetF1 think it's that important and you agree that's great, stick with it. But I think you are in the minority, given the number of posters who have disagreed thus far in this thread. I'm not forcing you into any corner, I was merely providing examples that I would have thought makes this seem a small issue when you consider what has happened in the past. As I said, if you had never heard of the examples suggested (started watching yesterday) by me and others I could see it from your perspective but as it is...

For the record, from what I have seen in the past PlanetF1 do not appear to report F1 matters themselves they post articles based on other media's interviews/news and sensationalise the headlines out of context... sounds like it in this case too!

Edited by DampMongoose, 05 July 2013 - 11:33.

[Massa_f1]

Ferrari won 2007 with their flexi floor points. So no. Not to say rbr with their flexible wings floors and dodgy engine maps. It would be one of the cleaner championships.

Clean championship haha. Oh and if I remember correctly Ferrari got rid of the flexi floor after the first race in 07. Certainly a hell of a lot cleaner than a McLaren championship would of been in 2007 that is for sure.

Back on topic yes.

The answer in my opinion is Yes. They did not have this kind of speed or tyre management before the test. Now they are one of the best it appears. So yes it would be tainted in my opinion.

[maverick69]

If they go on to run traction control, set one of their drivers on fire, ignore race protocol, ignore race penalties, wear out their plank by running their car too low, and ram their title rival off the road at the last race...... then yes..... it would be tainted like Benetton's win in 1994.

[Buttoneer]

I think there is enough controversy that for the next 100 years whenever the 2013 championship is mentioned, it will be tainted enough for someone to mention it just at they do for Adleaide, Jerez, flexi floors, twin chassis, flexi wings, double diffuser, team orders, tyre wars, spygate, Michelingate, bill gates, five bar gate, cow and gate, gate gate, and a myriad other things which people who support the losing side want to get upset about.

Whether the test actually did have any significant effect is a different matter because even in early season testing people in the know thought the Mercedes was going to be a fast car if not an outright winner.

I think you need to demonstrate that there was a significant benefit derived from the test and prove a positive corellation before you even get to discussing causation.

[Massa_f1]

I think there is enough controversy that for the next 100 years whenevr the 2013 championship is mentioned, it will be tainted enough for someone to mention it just at they do for Adleaide, Jerez, flexi floors, twin chassis, flexi wings, double diffuser, team orders, tyre wars, spygate, Michelingate, bill gates, five bar gate, cow and gate, gate gate, and a myriad other things which people who support the losing side want to get upset about.

Whether the test actually did have any significant effect is a different matter because even in early season testing people in the know thought the Mercedes was going to be a fast car if not an outright winner.

I think you need to demonstrate that there was a significant benefit derived from the test and prove a positive corellation, let alone causation.

Oh come on they were no where near getting wins before that test. A few podiums 12 to 40 seconds off the leader in each race. Test happens, now they look unstoppable. hmmm I wonder were the progress could of been made.

[st99]

IMO yes. They had the same tyre problems since 2010 and until the Spanish GP they couldn't solve it and magically since the whole test fiasco they're one of the teams with less degradation? Sorry, but that doesn't sound right for me and I really like both Rosberg and Lewis, I would be cheering for them to win without all this.

[1Devil1]

I think there is enough controversy that for the next 100 years whenevr the 2013 championship is mentioned, it will be tainted enough for someone to mention it just at they do for Adleaide, Jerez, flexi floors, twin chassis, flexi wings, double diffuser, team orders, tyre wars, spygate, Michelingate, bill gates, five bar gate, cow and gate, gate gate, and a myriad other things which people who support the losing side want to get upset about.

Whether the test actually did have any significant effect is a different matter because even in early season testing people in the know thought the Mercedes was going to be a fast car if not an outright winner.

I think you need to demonstrate that there was a significant benefit derived from the test and prove a positive corellation, let alone causation.

Good point. You can turn it around - where is the proof they didn't gain from the test. It is impossible to know. Even Ross Brawn - in a private situation with all cards on the table - wouldn't know how much they gained through the test. I tend to believe that this will be the two arguments (they gained so much - they cheated; and Mercedes would be in the same positions even without test) in the next 100 years. For me that's is the major problem it will be picked up eventually. I can't see that people will praise then a great Lewis or Rosberg's championship

Edited by 1Devil1, 05 July 2013 - 11:48.

[bonjon1979a]

IMO yes. They had the same tyre problems since 2010 and until the Spanish GP they couldn't solve it and magically since the whole test fiasco they're one of the teams with less degradation? Sorry, but that doesn't sound right for me and I really like both Rosberg and Lewis, I would be cheering for them to win without all this.

But they did have those degradation problems in both Monaco and Canada. They won monaco but only because teams couldn't overtake. Canada they didn't have the deg to be able to compete at the front. Worth remembering that 1000km test isn't as much data a team would get at a race weekend. Plus, at the race weekends they can change the settings and analyse the data. This is a real red herring. I find it more troubling that Ferrari tested the tyres at a track they were going to race at four days later, in that race we saw ferrari on a different planet when it comes to tyre usage. That was a test booked and paid for by Ferrari, were their any FIA monitors there to check there weren't 2013 parts on that car? No. Who know what went on at that test?

[1Devil1]

Oh come on they were no where near getting wins before that test. A few podiums 12 to 40 seconds off the leader in each race. Test happens, now they look unstoppable. hmmm I wonder were the progress could of been made.

I had the feeling a lot of Mercedes fans wanted to force the opinion that Mercedes was in the position to win before Monaco (especially in Malaysia). But they clearly never were in the position for a race win because of their bad/mediocre tire management. They made a huge step forward before Monaco/Canada - it's down to your believe were this came from..

In Canada they were not in the position to win but the tire management was better than before..

Edited by 1Devil1, 05 July 2013 - 11:55.

[TomNokoe]

People are acting like this was a special test. It wasn't. They have had tons of testing before this and it hadn't solved their inherent problems that they've had since 2010. It was a progressive thing, and the test merely contributed a little bit. And sorry but all this has done is allow the fastest car to exploit its pace. They haven't gained an illegal advantage they have merely been able to work around these stupid tyres.

[camberley]

Mercedes is already tainted - badly

They have 0 chance of winning the WDC.

If they win the WCC, it will tainted quite a lot

[Buttoneer]

Oh come on they were no where near getting wins before that test. A few podiums 12 to 40 seconds off the leader in each race. Test happens, now they look unstoppable. hmmm I wonder were the progress could of been made.

The team were absolutely not unstoppable in Monaco and the result there was as much a function of the track as it was Mercedes ability to take pole, which is something they've been doing since long before the test.

Your argument is 'it's obvious that I'm right' and I'm saying 'well OK then, show me'.

[Briz]

1994 I remember as a year of utter Schumacher domination all the way, one of the most deserved titles. Was also a year of unprecedented FIA bias and robbery against a driver and he still won, absolute victory. Letting his opponent crash into him with a completely legal move and dedicating the so won title to Senna was the cherry on top of the cake, yum yum.

[RedBaron]

If they win it will be as tainted as Benetton in 1994 yes. Which is a total of 0% tainted.

NEXT.