Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

The Pit Lane Incident/F1 safety slipping [merged]


  • Please log in to reply
310 replies to this topic

#301 redreni

redreni
  • Member

  • 4,709 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 12 July 2013 - 17:29

At the end of the day, teams will always spend the money they have, if not on the car or pit equipment, then it will be in motor homes and hospitality units. They will still try to outdo each other.


Amen to that, and thanks for another informative post.

I note you favour air pressure restrictions, but would you agree other safety changes are necessary? In normal conditions the drivers are usually pretty good at coming into the box straight and hitting their marks, but it can go wrong if there‘s a driver error or if the incoming car is struck by a car in the adjacent box being released at the wrong moment. And every time it rains it makes me cringe seeing crewmen kneeling on the concrete, which is slick with rainwater mixed with rubber and grease, waiting for the car to come barelling in on tyres that are either worn out or wrong for the prevailing conditions, trusting the driver to miss them by inches. Would you consider it consistent with the spirit of F1to make them wait in the garage, or behind the white line, until the car has stopped?

Advertisement

#302 MikeTekRacing

MikeTekRacing
  • Member

  • 12,294 posts
  • Joined: October 04

Posted 12 July 2013 - 17:37

It needs to be safe and whatever comes after that. Fast and dangerous is for idiots on the internet.

it doesn't mean you don't address obvious safety issues but it will never be safe. by its pure nature it is dangerous.

I am curiously waiting for this miraculous solution that will make the cars completely safe in the pit lane.
How many wheels did we have put on in races? How many times a wheel has come of and hit somebody in the pit lane? It may sound un-sensible but the probability is not that big. Losing control in the wet, getting your brakes wrong, hitting a fellow crew member are far more often.

You don't have to be an idiot to admit that no matter what you do there will be quite a big risk compared to a regular job.

#303 Ross Stonefeld

Ross Stonefeld
  • Member

  • 70,106 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 12 July 2013 - 17:41

I agree. So let's deal with the easy fixes first.

There don't need to be ANY people in the pitlane. That was my opinion before people got hit by flying wheels. And this isn't our first wheel incident, this is just the first time its hit someone.

I don't know why people look at is as one thing or the other. You can remove the people in the firing line AND do things to try to reduce the likelihood that a car leaves the pitbox with an unsecured wheel.

#304 CSquared

CSquared
  • Member

  • 674 posts
  • Joined: December 09

Posted 12 July 2013 - 20:57

It‘s a motor race, it‘s not supposed to be slow but safe. Ideally it should be fast and safe. Failing that it should be fast and dangerous, which is what it is (although not as dangerous as it used to be). Failing that you wouldn‘t bother putting the races on. On no account should we have slow but safe motor racing.

We're not talking about racing or driving, we're talking about swapping wheels. That being done fast is not racing, and it being done slowly does not make the racing any less pure or difficult. Racing/driving a car at the limit will always be inherently dangerous. There's no reason swapping wheels should be dangerous.

#305 redreni

redreni
  • Member

  • 4,709 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 12 July 2013 - 22:28

We're not talking about racing or driving, we're talking about swapping wheels. That being done fast is not racing, and it being done slowly does not make the racing any less pure or difficult. Racing/driving a car at the limit will always be inherently dangerous. There's no reason swapping wheels should be dangerous.


I understand what you're saying but I don't agree. A Grand Prix is a competition not just between drivers, but between crews to complete the distance ahead of the others. The crew's role is fundamental to a car's success, not just because of the pitstops, but because of the work of the strategy guys, the role that the race engineer plays in communicating with the driver and managing his race, the work that the mechanics do on the car in preparation for each session, the whole package. If you look at the amount of work that has to be done to get a car to the end of a Grand Prix, the driver does such a small per centage of it that it hardly seems fair that he is the one who gets the pot if they get on the podium.

For me, stopping is not a break in the racing, it's part of the racing. It's done because, in the medium/long run, it is quicker to stop than to keep going. And the quicker the car can be serviced and released, the quicker the car can complete the race distance. The drivers push for every tenth on the in lap, and it's only right that the crews push for every tenth at the stop. The teams and crews are competing against each other in every other area, and for me you need a pretty compelling safety reason before you stop them competing for advantage in pitstops too, since the pitstops form part of the cars' overall race times and help determine their finishing position.

So for me rules designed to slow down the stops are no different than rules designed to slow down the cars generally - you only bring them in when it's necessary because things are getting too dangerous. So on the track, you don't limit the cars' speed except in certain special circumstances where there are people on the track who need to be protected, at which point you bring out the safety car. In the pits, you do limit the cars' speed because, before the speed limit was inroduced in 1994, it was starting to get very hairy indeed. Is it necessary to also have a minumum stationary time for pitstops? For me, it's not only unnecessary but also not guaranteed to be effective. It would take the pressure off routine stops and probably cut down on the number of incidents, but as others have said, problem stops would still occur and so would unsafe releases, unless the stops were made so long that virtually any issue could be fixed before the clock ticked down to zero, in which case it probably wouldn't be worth stopping anyway.

Just cut down on the number of men you can have working on a pitstop, bring in the white line rule they have in GT racing, and investigate the feasibility of a failsafe system where cars cannot be released until the wheel is fitted correctly, These are the avenues that need exploring before we take the competitive edge out of yet another area of F1. We've already got spec tyres, spec ECUs, perfrmance-balanced engines that cannot be developed - the list goes on. Must we really standardise pitstops too?

#306 August

August
  • Member

  • 3,277 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 13 July 2013 - 08:37

I'm starting to think refuelling ban made pitstops more dangerous. As fuelling took more time than changing tyres, there was more time to fit the tyres properly.

#307 thiscocks

thiscocks
  • Member

  • 1,489 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 15 July 2013 - 09:55

I actually thought of this incident when it happened.

Actually quite amazing how many people they allowed in the pitlane back then, and not a helmet in sight.

And if there were no camera men or reporters in the pitlane then we wouldnt have had any of those great shots of Mansell.

Absolutely absurd desicion by to ban all media from the pitlane. Quote from Dieter Renckens article:

Overall the sport – and thus its fans – will be all the poorer should this media clampdown be implemented. Banning the media will hardly stop wheels flying off cars, nor prevent the dangers inherent in the pitlane.

Journalists fully accept the risks when they sign up – after all, no one is forced to walk the pitlane – yet those that responsibly venture into the danger zone happily do so in the interests of imparting deeper perspectives of the sport they love.


This is just another example of FOM banning any non fee paying party to work in F1. Really sad for F1 and the viewer. Slippery slope and all that..

#308 dau

dau
  • Member

  • 5,373 posts
  • Joined: March 09

Posted 15 July 2013 - 10:06

And if there were no camera men or reporters in the pitlane then we wouldnt have had any of those great shots of Mansell.

Absolutely absurd desicion by to ban all media from the pitlane. Quote from Dieter Renckens article:

Overall the sport – and thus its fans – will be all the poorer should this media clampdown be implemented. Banning the media will hardly stop wheels flying off cars, nor prevent the dangers inherent in the pitlane.

Journalists fully accept the risks when they sign up – after all, no one is forced to walk the pitlane – yet those that responsibly venture into the danger zone happily do so in the interests of imparting deeper perspectives of the sport they love.


This is just another example of FOM banning any non fee paying party to work in F1. Really sad for F1 and the viewer. Slippery slope and all that..

Media was already banned from the pitlane for qualifying and the race and nobody seems to have noticed so far.

#309 redreni

redreni
  • Member

  • 4,709 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 15 July 2013 - 16:32

I'm starting to think refuelling ban made pitstops more dangerous. As fuelling took more time than changing tyres, there was more time to fit the tyres properly.


And we had cars released with the fuel hose on, the hose would knock the nearside front wheelmen off their feet and damn near throw them under the rear wheels, and the broken end of the fuel hose would liberally spray fuel all over the next pit crew, the pit lane, following cars etc, igniting the moment it touched a hot surface.

Whatever the limiting factor in the speed of a pitstop, it will always be safer if you have a sure way of preventing the car from being released before the job is done.

#310 redreni

redreni
  • Member

  • 4,709 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 15 July 2013 - 16:51

And if there were no camera men or reporters in the pitlane then we wouldnt have had any of those great shots of Mansell.

Absolutely absurd desicion by to ban all media from the pitlane. Quote from Dieter Renckens article:

Overall the sport – and thus its fans – will be all the poorer should this media clampdown be implemented. Banning the media will hardly stop wheels flying off cars, nor prevent the dangers inherent in the pitlane.

Journalists fully accept the risks when they sign up – after all, no one is forced to walk the pitlane – yet those that responsibly venture into the danger zone happily do so in the interests of imparting deeper perspectives of the sport they love.


This is just another example of FOM banning any non fee paying party to work in F1. Really sad for F1 and the viewer. Slippery slope and all that..


I don't think it's in FOM's interests to make its product worse, not in terms of the FOM world feed, anyway. It's not clear from the announcements that have been made, but it sounds to me like FOM television cameramen will be banned from the pitlane in the same way as team principals and race engineers etc are banned from the pitlane - they can cross the lane to access the prat perches and to go from there back to the garage, they're just not allowed to hang about in pit lane or work in pit lane. I'm sure we're not going to lose TV coverage of pitstop or anything like that, because they will be covered with shots taken from the garage or pit wall or from the remotely controlled cameras that run on a rail above the garages at many tracks.

If, as Dieter Rencken thinks, Bernie wants to drive revenue by reducing the level of access that comes as standard with a press pass, and then charging extra for closer and better access, it will mainly affect the print media. It's not something that affects the TV broadcasters much because they're already banned from the pitlane during racing and they already operate a system of differential access depending on the level of the TV company's contract and the size of its audience. Each publication will have to decide whether they are going to pay the increased rates for full access, and if they decide to pay them they will have to make their money back. E.g. if Autosport decides to buy top level access to the F1 paddock, I've no doubt the stories that come from that will probably end up in the magazine or on Autosport plus rather than on the free site. But this approach is unlikely to work so well for the print media as it does for live television rights because, if somebody puts an illegal feed of Sky's exclusive live F1 coverage on the internet, Sky can have them shut down and sue for damages or have the person prosecuted under anti-piracy laws. But if somebody essentially lifts the content out of an article on Autosport plus and presents it as their own story, puts it on a free-to-view website and makes money off the advertising, it is much harder to do anything about it.

#311 Ross Stonefeld

Ross Stonefeld
  • Member

  • 70,106 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 15 July 2013 - 16:57

What exactly does print media gain by being in the pitlane during a practice session? I can see the argument for broadcast media, but even then the information is hardly ground breaking and the Friday audiences are pretty small.