53 replies to this topic

[sopa]

Ok, here is some food for thought. Jenson Button, 33 years of age, former WDC, but currently lies tenth in the championship after McLaren-Mercedes has dropped the ball massively.

Are the best days of Button's career over or can he still reach the heights he has had? By heights I mainly think of three seasons in which he finished in the first three in the overall standings.

2004 - though no win, very consistent all year, lots of podiums and a strong third place in the championship.
2009 - World Champion
2011 - though a long way behind Vettel, finished second in the championship, beating the rest of the opposition including team-mate Hamilton.

Will he add another height to this list? Will Button ever finish in Top Three in the championship again?
In 2009-2012 Button was among frontrunning drivers and a semiregular race winner. During that time-frame he collected 14 race wins, which averages 3.5 wins per season.

The question is not whether Button ever wins a race again or not, because anything can happen in a single random event. The matter is if the days of Button as a driver being a major force in F1, who consistently competes for podiums, is over?

McLaren has been in decline and is in a transition phase to Honda. Will McLaren be a frontrunner in 2014? 2015 with Honda? Will Button stay at McLaren long enough until the glory days come back? Can Button do like Barrichello and wait a long time before getting an Indian summer season late in his career? Barrichello finished 3rd in 2009 at the age of 37, for the first time as a major player since 2004, when he was second.

Share your thoughts, predict the future and have some fun.

[Myrvold]

Well, I don't think, unless your name is Damon Hill and your motivation is gone. That you go from being a 'major force' to 'not competes for podiums' in one year.
However, he will need a car that is able to get those positions.

[Vesuvius]

It will depend about the car, if McLaren builds a good car he can be on top3 for sure.

Edited by Vesuvius, 08 July 2013 - 13:23.

[Kelateboy]

Will he add another height to this list? Will Button ever finish in Top Three in the championship again?
In 2009-2012 Button was among frontrunning drivers and a semiregular race winner. During that time-frame he collected 14 race wins, which averages 3.5 wins per season.

It is possible for him to be in Top-3 again because of the major regulation changes in 2014. Too many unknowns and any of the top teams could luck in with the right chassis, power unit and tyre combination.

[topical]

If he has the car, he can do it, if not then not. Same as everyone else. Except Button's car would need to be a bit better than that of a top driver, cos he ain't all that good.

Edited by topical, 08 July 2013 - 13:30.

[Burtros]

Ok, here is some food for thought. Jenson Button, 33 years of age, former WDC, but currently lies tenth in the championship after McLaren-Mercedes has dropped the ball massively.

Are the best days of Button's career over or can he still reach the heights he has had? By heights I mainly think of three seasons in which he finished in the first three in the overall standings.

2004 - though no win, very consistent all year, lots of podiums and a strong third place in the championship.
2009 - World Champion
2011 - though a long way behind Vettel, finished second in the championship, beating the rest of the opposition including team-mate Hamilton.

Will he add another height to this list? Will Button ever finish in Top Three in the championship again?
In 2009-2012 Button was among frontrunning drivers and a semiregular race winner. During that time-frame he collected 14 race wins, which averages 3.5 wins per season.

The question is not whether Button ever wins a race again or not, because anything can happen in a single random event. The matter is if the days of Button as a driver being a major force in F1, who consistently competes for podiums, is over?

McLaren has been in decline and is in a transition phase to Honda. Will McLaren be a frontrunner in 2014? 2015 with Honda? Will Button stay at McLaren long enough until the glory days come back? Can Button do like Barrichello and wait a long time before getting an Indian summer season late in his career? Barrichello finished 3rd in 2009 at the age of 37, for the first time as a major player since 2004, when he was second.

Share your thoughts, predict the future and have some fun.

It'll totally depend on the car and seeing as he is driving for a team that are capable of going from having the fastest car at the end of one season to having one of the worst with a fundamentally flawed concept in just a few months, not to mention the Merc/Honda upheaval due, I'd say predictions are at best going to be stabs in the dark.

A nice idea, but in practice not possible IMHO.

Edited by Burtros, 08 July 2013 - 13:30.

[Afterburner]

As far as being a consistent WDC contender, maybe so. As far as individual races go, though, I think he'll have one more mind-blowing Canada 2011-style win before his career is out. He's good at doing stuff like that, and I think he'll probably grab at least another win or two before it's all over.

[Lights]

As it almost completely depends on the car, it's about whether he will have the material or not.

Of course he's still capable of being a major force. He's just 33. Webber won his first race when he was 33.

[DutchQuicksilver]

It all depends if the McLaren-Honda combo will be a succes from the start. I don't see Jenson competing at the top in 2016 really, so 2015 would be his last chance. The first step is McLaren getting to grips with regulation changes straight away, though this will be difficult because they are still tied to Mercedes for next year.

[JacnGille]

If he has the car, he can do it, if not then not. Same as everyone else.

[Sakae]

It's over.

[holiday]

2009 - World Champion

A career height certainly, but how much of a performance peak was 2009 actually? The second half of this season belonged to team-mate RB who was goldie, but oldie.

[Ragingjamaican]

I can't see him finishing in the top 3 in a championship unless he has a blindingly quick car like Brawn and the McLaren of 2012, even in 2012 he didn't finish in the top 3.

[Grundle]

Yes. He can't lead a team.

[Bloggsworth]

Yep - He drove really badly to only come 6th while driving mule...

[KateLM]

Button became WDC in a very strange year, and spent most of the second half of said year doing everything possible not to win the title - and before I get jumped on about the car, I mean his performance relative to Barrichello. Frankly I think another championship is and always was going to be unlikely, so if we're calling that a career height then yes I think that was probably it.

But if we're talking about his career in a frontline team (even if they have produced a turkey this year), then absolutely not. 33 is not old at all these days, and Jenson is as fit as they come. He's a fair few years younger than Webber, and Webber probably could have chosen to hang around a year or so more if he had wanted to. Button has several good years still ahead of him providing he that's what he wants. It would take something very drastic for McLaren to want to get rid of him.

[jjcale]

He drives for Macca ... he will be back

[mattferg]

As soon as McLaren gets proper works support in 2015 they'll be right back at the top again, but not before then. Jenson will stick around for that.

[Fastcake]

No. A decent car and he'll be winning races again. Yesterday's performance was hardly bad was it?

[wingwalker]

People were asking this question in 2008 and "yeah, obviously" was a very popular answer. **** knows.

[Force Ten]

Button became WDC in a very strange year, and spent most of the second half of said year doing everything possible not to win the title - and before I get jumped on about the car, I mean his performance relative to Barrichello.

And after your clarification it's still a mighty stupid thing to say. Barrichello got 33 points in the second half of the season. Button got 27. Barrichello didn't even make it to 2nd in the championship.

[Force Ten]

I can't see him finishing in the top 3 in a championship unless he has a blindingly quick car like Brawn and the McLaren of 2012, even in 2012 he didn't finish in the top 3.

Well maybe you need better glasses then as he was second in the championship for instance in 2011.

[mattferg]

I can't see him finishing in the top 3 in a championship unless he has a blindingly quick car like Brawn and the McLaren of 2012, even in 2012 he didn't finish in the top 3.

Yes, but that's because although the McLaren was fast, it had bad reliability, making it the third best car overall (as seen in the WCC rankings). Meaning 5th was actually pretty much where the car deserved to be. Hamilton slightly overperformed it, whereas Massa and Webber massively underperformed in their cars.

[sopa]

Yes, but that's because although the McLaren was fast, it had bad reliability, making it the third best car overall (as seen in the WCC rankings). Meaning 5th was actually pretty much where the car deserved to be. Hamilton slightly overperformed it, whereas Massa and Webber massively underperformed in their cars.

Funny thing is that I don't remember Button's McLaren being particularly unreliable. He retired a couple of times, but that was it. Most of the time he was just slow and this is where points were lost.

[Force Ten]

Funny thing is that I don't remember Button's McLaren being particularly unreliable. He retired a couple of times, but that was it. Most of the time he was just slow and this is where points were lost.

You still didn't answer me - are Alonso's careers highlights over?

[Ragingjamaican]

Well maybe you need better glasses then as he was second in the championship for instance in 2011.

Aye, when there where only two teams fighting for multiple wins, and his team mate having a blunder of a season, and Webber being Webber.

That's the reason why I didn't inclue 2011...

As for McLaren having reliability problems in 2012, Button only had two, that being in Bahrain when he was running 8th, and in Monza while in second. The majority of reliability and operational problems went towards Hamilton. So I wouldn't say 5th is where the car should have been considering Button had far less problems than Hamilton and the car was good enough for the championship in my opinion.

[muramasa]

Somehow I have a strange feeling that he'll retire from F1 as a champion, like Mansell and Prost.

oh Mansell doesnt count

[TheThirdTenor1]

I can't see him finishing in the top 3 in a championship unless he has a blindingly quick car like Brawn and the McLaren of 2012, even in 2012 he didn't finish in the top 3.

Brawn was blindingly quick for only the first 6/7 races + Monza.

[TheThirdTenor1]

In other words it really didn't fit your self imposed view of the man (it was too good for that) so you discarded it and counted only the results where they meet your low opinion of him? Classy.

Funny thing is, Button also came third in 2004, and he wasn't driving a Ferrari that year. I wonder what excuse he has for that one.

[Ragingjamaican]

In other words it really didn't fit your self imposed view of the man (it was too good for that) so you discarded it and counted only the results where they meet your low opinion of him? Classy.

Considering that most of the top drivers didn't have the tools at the disposal to be in the top 3 or where off form, then I think my opinions fair enough. A bit like Coulthard from 2001.

Hence, I also said, blindingly quick car, and the McLaren in 2011 wasn't one, while the Brawn and McLaren of 2012 were.

I see you also brought Alonso into this with another poster who thought similar as me about Button's career in the top 3, not sure why, as it has nothing to do with the thread.

[Ragingjamaican]

Funny thing is, Button also came third in 2004, and he wasn't driving a Ferrari that year. I wonder what excuse he has for that one.

Check my last post, for that one on why I mentioned only those two seasons.

Do I have an excuse for that one? No, I don't, that was in my opinion, his best season.

Add to that, it's not as if he's going to be in his peak once McLaren get up and running.

[baddog]

Barring a huge dose of luck I do not see him being a real championship force in future no. He is not at all rubbish, but it all has to fall right for him. I just don't think he is the very very best of them.

That said if Mac made the car of the year next year then he might well do it.. Perez is way rash and while he may in fact be even quicker than JB he will throw it away over and over.

[Force Ten]

Barring a huge dose of luck I do not see him being a real championship force in future no. He is not at all rubbish, but it all has to fall right for him.

Isn't it the same for everyone? It's somewhat funny to remember that he is the last WDC before Vettel started his steamroller. They all have to have a thing or two falling for them - the right car, the right teammate and so on.

[Coral]

It's hard to tell, the McLaren is not good enough at the moment but if they were to build a car as dominant as the 2009 Brawn then he could still be a contender...but what are the chances of that? The thing about Button though is that when reading his twitter feed one gets the impression that he is more interested in triathlons than F1.

[isthatglock?]

Jenson needs a faster car than the top drivers and he needs all things perfect to compete with them. With the Mclaren in the doldrums, nightmare tyres, rule changes next year and a new engine partner the year after, I'd say yes, his dizzy heights will not be revisited.

[tkulla]

As far as age in concerned, I think he's too young to be counted out. Alonso will be 32 in a week or so and Kimi is actually older than Jenson. If age is the question we should be asking the same question about those two drivers.

Jenson's fitness certainly can't be questioned either. He's likely the fittest driver in F1 and has even become a legitimate world-class triathlete.

Motivation could be an issue, and I could see him not wanting to continue if he was stuck in a car as bad as this year. But his performance hasn't suffered much this season - so far he's quicker than his charging young teammate and is still gathering whatever points are possible. In a sorted car I suspect the difference between Button and Perez would be even more pronounced.

I've put forth a theory that perhaps he doesn't see himself driving for more than 3 or 4 more years, and because of that I think there's a chance that he'll jump to Ferrari to replace Massa next season. Crazy, I know, but I get a weird vibe from his press dealings this year. Taking on Alonso is just the kind of challenge to fuel his fires, and if Kimi heads to Red Bull the Scuderia is going to need another points scoring machine in the other car.

Edited by tkulla, 08 July 2013 - 23:02.

[sopa]

Tkulla, I know you're a Button fan and should know him more than most of us. Well, have you read these team-change things out of him in the past too? Like the departure from Brawn to McLaren or even the Williams/Honda affair? And doesn't he have a contract with McLaren for 2014?

Alonso and Raikkonen's ages are not too dissimilar, but I think there is a point in starting to ask these questions about them too. Of course we have seen that retirement age is often more like at the 37 mark, so there is a bit to go. But if Ferrari doesn't make quick changes nor produces a great car for 2014, it is crunch time for Alonso to really add more titles. Raikkonen takes on Vettel in a new team for himself and as an elder driver. Maybe a 25-y-o Kimi could match Vettel, but he will be new to the team and I don't see it happening. Also I don't think the chances are very big Kimi is going to add another title. And with every year the younger blokes of Vettel, Hamilton and Rosberg are going to gain an advantage. I know Prost and Mansell won titles at a pretty old age, but let's be honest, they had rocketships as well compared to the competition.

A lot in this thread seems to hinge on "depends on car". Well, with this rhetoric we put a lot of trust in McLaren to produce a rocketship next year after an apalling season. Brawn/Honda did it for 2009, but what are the chances of that to really happen? Personally I don't see McLaren having it in them to beat Red Bull. Or even some other teams. They must really get fortunate with a great engine then. Then again Mercedes will be the A-priority team, while McLaren is already on its way out of the relationship with Mercedes.

I know we are recently discussing a lot about Ferrari and that they are passive to really get above competition. Frankly McLaren doesn't inspire me with confidence either. So I am asking this question about Button. What made the Brawn/Red Bull miracle possible in 2009? Because they had been really aggressive in getting together a team. Especially Honda. I lost count how many new people they hired in 2007. It looked like they changed the whole design team. About McLaren I have heard about losses and Ferrari is status quo.

Edited by sopa, 08 July 2013 - 23:37.

[mattferg]

I know we are recently discussing a lot about Ferrari and that they are passive to really get above competition. Frankly McLaren doesn't inspire me with confidence either. So I am asking this question about Button. What made the Brawn/Red Bull miracle possible in 2009? Because they had been really aggressive in getting together a team. Especially Honda. I lost count how many new people they hired in 2007. It looked like they changed the whole design team. About McLaren I have heard about losses and Ferrari is status quo.

I think it was a combination of two things - Red Bull and Honda/Brawn were in the unique situation of being completely out of contention for the title in 2008, yet having the funds available outside of the WCC money to give up entirely on that year's championship and focus on new regulation changes for 2009. As well as that, the two main title contenders for 2008 were fighting for the championship right down to the last lap of the last race, so their development for 2009 was delayed, allowing well-funded teams like Honda and RBR to breach the gap.

[speng]

As it almost completely depends on the car, it's about whether he will have the material or not.

Of course he's still capable of being a major force. He's just 33. Webber won his first race when he was 33.

To a certain extent is depends on the car but not completely. If Button gets a competitive car he will be outclass by Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel and Kimi given that they are in competitive cars too. If he gets a rocket ship then yes and it will be more the car.

Edited by speng, 09 July 2013 - 00:25.

[BillBald]

Jenson is very fit, and his driving is as good as ever.

He doesn't need a rocketship, but he does need a car which suits him.

To me the main question mark is over the McLaren team, assuming he stays with them (which seems most likely). Will this season act as a wakeup call, and motivate McLaren to fix long-standing problems with their race operations, as well as strengthening their design team? If that happens, and Honda deliver a strong power unit, Jenson will have a very good chance of another WDC.

[tkulla]

Tkulla, I know you're a Button fan and should know him more than most of us. Well, have you read these team-change things out of him in the past too? Like the departure from Brawn to McLaren or even the Williams/Honda affair? And doesn't he have a contract with McLaren for 2014?

Good post.

I'd be surprised if he doesn't have a performance-based out clause. And yes, there are some parallels. He distanced himself a bit from Brawn after that season and then the rumors of contract negotiations came out. I would expect Jenson to be pumping up the team and being that beacon of positivity that he can be when he's trying to keep everyone moving forward. He's not really doing that and it makes me wonder why not.

Alonso and Raikkonen's ages are not too dissimilar, but I think there is a point in starting to ask these questions about them too. Of course we have seen that retirement age is often more like at the 37 mark, so there is a bit to go. But if Ferrari doesn't make quick changes nor produces a great car for 2014, it is crunch time for Alonso to really add more titles. Raikkonen takes on Vettel in a new team for himself and as an elder driver. Maybe a 25-y-o Kimi could match Vettel, but he will be new to the team and I don't see it happening. Also I don't think the chances are very big Kimi is going to add another title. And with every year the younger blokes of Vettel, Hamilton and Rosberg are going to gain an advantage. I know Prost and Mansell won titles at a pretty old age, but let's be honest, they had rocketships as well compared to the competition.

I'm really hoping that Kimi lines up alongside Seb next year. I think Kimi still "has it" and will give Vettel a run for his money. I rate Vettel highly (as I do Kimi) and I am really curious to see how they compare head to head.

A lot in this thread seems to hinge on "depends on car". Well, with this rhetoric we put a lot of trust in McLaren to produce a rocketship next year after an apalling season. Brawn/Honda did it for 2009, but what are the chances of that to really happen? Personally I don't see McLaren having it in them to beat Red Bull. Or even some other teams. They must really get fortunate with a great engine then. Then again Mercedes will be the A-priority team, while McLaren is already on its way out of the relationship with Mercedes.

I don't think it's likely that Mclaren will build a rocketship either. From Jenson's perspective it's a lost year as a Mercedes customer, then a switch to Honda and a year of teething problems, and then maybe a chance. That's possibly two-plus more years in the midfield, which I'd imagine isn't appealing to him at this point.

I know we are recently discussing a lot about Ferrari and that they are passive to really get above competition. Frankly McLaren doesn't inspire me with confidence either. So I am asking this question about Button. What made the Brawn/Red Bull miracle possible in 2009? Because they had been really aggressive in getting together a team. Especially Honda. I lost count how many new people they hired in 2007. It looked like they changed the whole design team. About McLaren I have heard about losses and Ferrari is status quo.

I have a feeling that Ferrari is putting a lot of eggs in the new regulation "basket" and has been for a while. Overcoming Red Bull's advantage by evolution wasn't likely so it would make sense for to look forward to a big rules change to try to topple them. Jense may be thinking the same...

[tkulla]

To a certain extent is depends on the car but not completely. If Button gets a competitive car he will be outclass by Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel and Kimi given that they are in competitive cars too. If he gets a rocket ship then yes and it will be more the car.

If Button were to go to Ferrari next year and outscore him, would you believe in him then or continue with this nonsense? Surely the last three years against Lewis has convinced you that Button is top tier?

[HammyHamiltonFan]

he's still a top driver, give him a car that can win and don't **** his setup up and he will win more races for sure, right now McLaren are just too slow in qualifying and the race for him to realistically get higher than 5th place in most races.

and if he goes to Red Bull for 2014 he will be competitive for sure, he may even be able to match or beat Vettel in the same car with the right setup (as he did with Hamilton in 2011)

Edited by HammyHamiltonFan, 09 July 2013 - 02:02.

[pingu666]

hes not enjoying this year, and yeah has had a weird vibe with the press, so its more a motivation thing imo. he might have just had enough.

[SophieB]

A few posts deleted.

The topic is about whether Jenson Button can still achieve at the highest level or not. We already did one of these topics for Fernando Alonso a while back, other drivers can of course be mentioned but please keep JB as the main focus of discussion here, thank you.

[Rocket73]

I must admit I am very surprised to hear that he younger than kimi and only a year older than fred. I have always thought JB was massively underrated from the Honda calamity team years. Considering ferrari's insane advantage at the time JB's 3rd in 2004 was a major result in the BAR. And he outscored Lewis in a 3 year period very recently.

He still has maybe 5 years yet? Give him a decent car and he definitely can be WDC again. If he had replaced Webber instead of going to macca...who knows what he could have done..

Edited by Rocket73, 09 July 2013 - 06:03.

[velgajski1]

Not sure. As much as it pains me, I don't think McLaren will bounce back very soon and Button isn't going to get any better than he was in 2009-2011. period.

[wrighty]

Button has the talent and the feel and the nous to produce results when the circumstances (and the car) allow it, so i don't think his career heights are over just yet.


I was channeling TickTickBoom there but i tend to agree ;)

[Dunc]

Button's peak is over but that doesn't mean his career is.

He is a bit of a paradox. He isn't as good as Alonso, Hamilton, Kimi or Vettel but he is way ahead of the likes of Massa, Webber and Rosberg (though he is improving). As a result, I don't see him losing his seat at the F1 table anytime soon unless he chooses to go.

By my reckoning it will be 2016, once chinks with the Honda engine have been ironed out, before McLaren are able to produce an unbeatable car again. If they do I have no doubt Button will be at the front. But is Button prepared to wait until then?

Edited by Dunc, 09 July 2013 - 19:46.

[noikeee]

I'd be surprised if he doesn't have a performance-based out clause. And yes, there are some parallels. He distanced himself a bit from Brawn after that season and then the rumors of contract negotiations came out. I would expect Jenson to be pumping up the team and being that beacon of positivity that he can be when he's trying to keep everyone moving forward. He's not really doing that and it makes me wonder why not.



I'm really hoping that Kimi lines up alongside Seb next year. I think Kimi still "has it" and will give Vettel a run for his money. I rate Vettel highly (as I do Kimi) and I am really curious to see how they compare head to head.



I don't think it's likely that Mclaren will build a rocketship either. From Jenson's perspective it's a lost year as a Mercedes customer, then a switch to Honda and a year of teething problems, and then maybe a chance. That's possibly two-plus more years in the midfield, which I'd imagine isn't appealing to him at this point.



I have a feeling that Ferrari is putting a lot of eggs in the new regulation "basket" and has been for a while. Overcoming Red Bull's advantage by evolution wasn't likely so it would make sense for to look forward to a big rules change to try to topple them. Jense may be thinking the same...

Good analysis on all points. I agree Jenson is in an awkward, unmotivating position and it shows. The Ferrari option is intriguing, a bit wishful thinking as there's been absolutely zero noises in the press about it but makes some sense. Although I am not entirely sure Fernando would like that!