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Sebastian Vettel's 30 Wins...


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#101 mnmracer

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 15:34

Yeh i think they would probably be more memorable to most observers that way.

And no one has said anything to the contrary.

Do you understand that some people find it odd that someone's standard is that memorable can only come from a bad weekend (as you say, must underperform in qualifying).
And moreso, do you understand that people find it really odd that someone goes around acting like others are crazy for finding superb performances memorable?

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#102 TheThirdTenor1

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 15:40

Do you understand that some people find it odd that someone's standard is that memorable can only come from a bad weekend (as you say, must underperform in qualifying).
And moreso, do you understand that people find it really odd that someone goes around acting like others are crazy for finding superb performances memorable?


The majority of observers will find wins like Hockenheim 2000 or Montreal 2011 more memorable than Hungary 2004 or Suzuka 2010 (just random examples i picked off the top of my head). You can start a poll if you don't believe me.

Edited by TheThirdTenor1, 12 July 2013 - 15:41.


#103 mnmracer

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 15:50

The majority of observers will find wins like Hockenheim 2000 or Montreal 2011 more memorable than Hungary 2004 or Suzuka 2010 (just random examples i picked off the top of my head). You can start a poll if you don't believe me.

That does not change my question. People don't come here to discuss what "the majority of observers" think. The Sun has a website for that.

Of course there are people here too that won't appreciate driving skills, and just want action. But at the very least, on a Formula One forum, you should be able to respect people that think outside such a simplistic context. People that respect a driver for being the best over a weekend, and not just judge them by how impressive race day looks when he underperforms in qualifying. The fact that you act as if people are crazy for respecting a driver's perfect weekend, is disrespectful and an insult to those with a more than shallow interest in F1.

Edited by mnmracer, 12 July 2013 - 15:51.


#104 TheThirdTenor1

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 16:11

That does not change my question. People don't come here to discuss what "the majority of observers" think. The Sun has a website for that.

Of course there are people here too that won't appreciate driving skills, and just want action. But at the very least, on a Formula One forum, you should be able to respect people that think outside such a simplistic context. People that respect a driver for being the best over a weekend, and not just judge them by how impressive race day looks when he underperforms in qualifying. The fact that you act as if people are crazy for respecting a driver's perfect weekend, is disrespectful and an insult to those with a more than shallow interest in F1.


Now you're getting confused. A drive can be respected without being memorable.


#105 mnmracer

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 17:17

Now you're getting confused. A drive can be respected without being memorable.

And a drive can also be memorable for being respectable, no matter how much you try to antagonize people for thinking respectable drives can be memorable.

#106 TheThirdTenor1

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 18:47

And a drive can also be memorable for being respectable, no matter how much you try to antagonize people for thinking respectable drives can be memorable.


I'm not trying to antagonize anyone. Sorry if you feel that way. Most F1 wins are respectable, but i don't think they are all memorable.


#107 Mr.Wayne

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 05:49

Yeh but 6 of the top 10 cars out in top 10 cars out in the first corner was quite something. When have we seen something like that? Maybe Hockenheim 2003 or 1994, but i don't really remember many people fellating over Coulthard or Panis' respective drives to 2nd place.

True. Although, if I remember correctly, he was last by having to avoid the mess in turn 1, and it was not as if all the top cars were out. Granted, Alonso and Hamilton left the race, but it was by no means an easy drive from the back.
But then again, there is not such a thing as "an easy drive from the back" .

#108 Zoetrope

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 06:18

But at the very least, on a Formula One forum, you should be able to respect people that think outside such a simplistic context. People that respect a driver for being the best over a weekend, and not just judge them by how impressive race day looks when he underperforms in qualifying


I understand and respect your opinion, but you are forcing people into what they should remember and what not. I bet Brundle and company would pick the same set of races as majority here. How simplistic context of the former racing driver.

And you don't have to underperform in Qualifying to be remembered. Qualifying lap itself can be mesmerizing and stick with you for years, like Korea 2011 for me.

#109 prty

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 07:43

Hilarious to read some suggest that people want him to underperform in qualifying. More like not to have the best car for once. When that happened he didn't do anything memorable.

Edited by prty, 13 July 2013 - 07:44.


#110 mnmracer

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 10:34

Hilarious to read some suggest that people want him to underperform in qualifying. More like not to have the best car for once. When that happened he didn't do anything memorable.

It's a very convenient excuse: whenever he wins, just say he had the fastest car and I don't need to give him credit. A little sad, but very convenient.

#111 Kobasmashi

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 10:38

Vettel's car setup was changed in part ferme at Abu Dhabi, he had plenty of straight line speed that day. I'm not denying that he doesn't have the same top speed most of the time, but in Abu Dhabi he did.

#112 prty

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 10:50

It's a very convenient excuse: whenever he wins, just say he had the fastest car and I don't need to give him credit. A little sad, but very convenient.


I don't need to say anything, the lack of impressive fought wins speak by itself. And that is a bit sad in a 3x (4x?) WDC.
Like I said another time, it's the same that Button did in 2009. Except he's been in that situation for longer.

Edited by prty, 13 July 2013 - 10:52.


#113 TheThirdTenor1

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 12:09

True. Although, if I remember correctly, he was last by having to avoid the mess in turn 1, and it was not as if all the top cars were out. Granted, Alonso and Hamilton left the race, but it was by no means an easy drive from the back.
But then again, there is not such a thing as "an easy drive from the back" .


He wasn't last, i think he was around 12th. No one is saying it was an easy drive. It was hugely impressive and he made much better progress than Webber and Massa. However his life was made alot easier with those 6 retirements.

#114 Kelateboy

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 12:58

Vettel's car setup was changed in part ferme at Abu Dhabi, he had plenty of straight line speed that day. I'm not denying that he doesn't have the same top speed most of the time, but in Abu Dhabi he did.

Nobody is stopping anybody from making the setup changes while the car is in the parc-ferme condition for as long as you are willing to start from the pit-lane. In Abu Dhabi, Vettel and RBR just made the best out of a very difficult situation and their calculated risk produced the desired result.

#115 TheThirdTenor1

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 13:30

I was actually quite surprised that Vettel did not win the race in Abu Dhabi. After the final safety car period he was on fresh soft tyres (all the other front runners were on older medium tyres). With DRS, tyre advantage and the top speed of the Red Bull, i thought he would be fighting for the win in the final few laps (rather similar to the situation we had in Silverstone this year).

#116 st99

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 13:53

I don't need to say anything, the lack of impressive fought wins speak by itself. And that is a bit sad in a 3x (4x?) WDC.
Like I said another time, it's the same that Button did in 2009. Except he's been in that situation for longer.


The lack of impressive wins? I do think he has quite a few impressive wins.

#117 Kobasmashi

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 15:23

Nobody is stopping anybody from making the setup changes while the car is in the parc-ferme condition for as long as you are willing to start from the pit-lane. In Abu Dhabi, Vettel and RBR just made the best out of a very difficult situation and their calculated risk produced the desired result.


Well that's the thing, he didn't lose more than 5ish seconds by starting in the pitlane as opposed to p24, which he quickly caught up as the pack were running together at the start, obviously. I think it's a bit lame that you can get away with that but that's why the top teams are successful, and Red Bull were clever for doing that. But that is why I won't hypothetically include Abu Dhabi 2012 as one of Vettel's best drives/possible victories. Just like how I don't believe Button's drive in Canada 2011 was as good as some do. He was similar in that he benefitted hugely from safety cars (2 of which he caused) and managed to fly up the field due to some crazy circumstances.

Edited by Kobasmashi, 13 July 2013 - 15:23.


#118 sopa

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 17:50

Hilarious to read some suggest that people want him to underperform in qualifying. More like not to have the best car for once. When that happened he didn't do anything memorable.


Just as an example, Vettel probably did not have the best car in Germany. Lotus was faster. Same in Bahrain 2012. Yet Vettel won.
McLaren was better than Toro Rosso in Italy 2008, but Kovalainen underperformed and Hamilton was nowhere, so Vettel won.
Vettel may not have had the best car in Monaco 2011. Button was right up with him in the race, but had a strange 3-stop strategy and dropped behind.
Italy 2011? Button got a bad start, Hamilton got stuck behind Schumacher. McLaren may well have been at least as fast as Red Bull, but we never saw it. Yet Vettel in the low top-speed Red Bull played it to perfection and won convincingly.

Once you start thinking about it, examples can be found.:)

#119 gillesthegenius

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 02:50

Just as an example, Vettel probably did not have the best car in Germany. Lotus was faster. Same in Bahrain 2012. Yet Vettel won.
McLaren was better than Toro Rosso in Italy 2008, but Kovalainen underperformed and Hamilton was nowhere, so Vettel won.
Vettel may not have had the best car in Monaco 2011. Button was right up with him in the race, but had a strange 3-stop strategy and dropped behind.
Italy 2011? Button got a bad start, Hamilton got stuck behind Schumacher. McLaren may well have been at least as fast as Red Bull, but we never saw it. Yet Vettel in the low top-speed Red Bull played it to perfection and won convincingly.

Once you start thinking about it, examples can be found.:)


:up:

And Barcelona 2011 is another example that comes to mind.

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#120 SophieB

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 19:29

A few posts deleted. This is turning into a thread about whether Sebastian Vettel is a great driver or whether he just has the best car. Please don't do this. Keep to discussing your favourite or most memorable Vettel wins more directly, please.

#121 TheThirdTenor1

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 20:25

:up:

And Barcelona 2011 is another example that comes to mind.


Was that the one where Red Bull were nearly a second clear of everyone else in qualifying?

#122 mnmracer

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 20:26

Was that the one where Red Bull were nearly a second clear of everyone else in qualifying?

Even after what Mercedes is going through this year, you still try to pull the "look at the qualifying pace" card? :lol:

Edited by mnmracer, 14 July 2013 - 20:26.


#123 bourbon

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 00:54

Bringing this back round to topic so that we can continue to enjoy some of Seb's memorable wins; I have just re-watched SPA 11, and it should be higher on my list. That race from Seb was glorious. The pass on Nico was brilliant. It has always been a favorite track of mine for other reasons, but that certainly added to them.

Definitely a race fan's treat for a re-watch.

Edited by bourbon, 15 July 2013 - 02:28.


#124 MightyMoose

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 00:57

Wow, way to ignore a moderators instruction.

Ok, I've re-thought it, Bourbon's post is the way we want to see this thread progressing.

Further off-topic derails will see it closed and there will not be any re-opening next time.


Edited by MightyMoose, 15 July 2013 - 01:08.
Decided to remove, bollock the 2 twats and re-open.


#125 mnmracer

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 01:26

Bringing this back round to topic so that we can continue to enjoy some of Seb's memorable wins; I have just re-watched SPA 11, and it should be higher on my list. That race from Seb was glorious. The pass on Nico was brilliant. It has always been a favorite track of mine for other reasons, but that certainly added to them.

Definitely a race fan's treat for a re-watch.

Agree. Spa's layout is perfect for spectacular moves, so when you have a great driver in a great position to make those moves, you can bet it'll be another Spa classic ^^

#126 bourbon

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 06:03

Thanks for the silent correction mnm, lol. I moved to the 12 collection just after that and confusion struck. I am onto watching another Seb win, under the lights in Singapore. Vettel inherited the lead - but what makes it memorable was that he'd had a similar reliability issue in Monza at the race before, so a little good luck was due. The close walls and Seb's particular style around this twisty track at night make this a fun watch.

Edited by bourbon, 15 July 2013 - 06:03.


#127 Kingshark

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 06:06

Singapore? Really? That was probably his weakest and least impressive win of the 2012 season. Bahrain was much better, when he beat the two Lotus drivers with a slower car.

#128 bourbon

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 07:24

Singapore? Really? That was probably his weakest and least impressive win of the 2012 season. Bahrain was much better, when he beat the two Lotus drivers with a slower car.


I can relate to that sentiment. I mean, it was a strong drive, but the leader was out on reliability issues so I can see why some might not see it as very memorable. However, this was one for the fans I guess - we'd just been through a reliability issue in Monza that took Seb out of the race, so it sweetend up the night race quite a bit for me when he took it. I would agree that over time it will probably not remain as memorable as many others we've discussed so far.

#129 Kelateboy

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 07:30

I can relate to that sentiment. I mean, it was a strong drive, but the leader was out on reliability issues so I can see why some might not see it as very memorable. However, this was one for the fans I guess - we'd just been through a reliability issue in Monza that took Seb out of the race, so it sweetend up the night race quite a bit for me when he took it. I would agree that over time it will probably not remain as memorable as many others we've discussed so far.

Singapore 2012 was sweet for his fans because that is when RBR introduced DDRS and all sorts of major upgrades that tipped the championship in his favor. That was also when RBR were able to get the alternators to work properly after 3 failures on Vettel's car.


#130 gillesthegenius

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 08:58

Was that the one where Red Bull were nearly a second clear of everyone else in qualifying?


And in the race too??? :eek:

#131 gillesthegenius

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 09:05

Bringing this back round to topic so that we can continue to enjoy some of Seb's memorable wins; I have just re-watched SPA 11, and it should be higher on my list. That race from Seb was glorious. The pass on Nico was brilliant. It has always been a favorite track of mine for other reasons, but that certainly added to them.

Definitely a race fan's treat for a re-watch.


Imo it was a drive in which Seb found the perfect mix between his flair and his composure. And it was probably the drive that indicated that Seb had 'come of age' and become more than just a shadow of Jim Clark, the man who once owned that legendary track. That's why I consider it to be my most satisfying experience of watching an f1 race.

#132 Diablobb81

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 09:08

And in the race too??? :eek:


Of course not. In the race it was 3 seconds faster and only Vettel being a terrible driver made the battle so close. You know nothing.

#133 MikeV1987

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 09:14



Really crappy quality, but I loved that race edit back then.

#134 gillesthegenius

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 09:19

Of course not. In the race it was 3 seconds faster and only Vettel being a terrible driver made the battle so close. You know nothing.


:lol: Jokes aside, I just loved the defensive lines he took when Hamilton had a couple of serious looks at him at the end of the start-finish straight. That ability to remain calm and take sublime lines when under attack was probably more evident at Bahrain 2012 though.

#135 gillesthegenius

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 09:27

Singapore? Really? That was probably his weakest and least impressive win of the 2012 season. Bahrain was much better, when he beat the two Lotus drivers with a slower car.


I agree. But from a Seb fan's perspective it was nice to be a beneficiary of a mishap to the leader for once. Even then I must admit that it was the least satisfying of all of Seb's wins.

#136 TheThirdTenor1

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 12:08

Singapore 2012 was sweet for his fans because that is when RBR introduced DDRS and all sorts of major upgrades that tipped the championship in his favor. That was also when RBR were able to get the alternators to work properly after 3 failures on Vettel's car.


As Horner said on the radio, it was the race that put him back in the championship hunt. Before that race, many thought it was going to be a battle between Alonso and Hamilton.

#137 TheThirdTenor1

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 12:10

Imo it was a drive in which Seb found the perfect mix between his flair and his composure. And it was probably the drive that indicated that Seb had 'come of age' and become more than just a shadow of Jim Clark, the man who once owned that legendary track. That's why I consider it to be my most satisfying experience of watching an f1 race.


Personally i found the race to a be a bit of anti climax. Opening laps were great, and then we had Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton and Webber all on different strategies. I think it would have been interesting to see how these would have played out without the safety car.

#138 gillesthegenius

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 05:38

Discussing at the Alonso thread, I just came to the realization that Korea 2010 was probably the epic that got away from Seb. With the championship so gently poised, a victory with that faultless drive that Seb put together in those difficult conditions inspite of being under the kind of pressure that forced Webber to make his silly mistake, may have gone down as something to cherish for a long time. But as it turned out, his misfortune probably helped him to show his steely side that he made full use of in order to romp to victory in the next two races and thereby secure a very sweet championship.

#139 Mr.Wayne

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 08:40

Was that the one where Red Bull were nearly a second clear of everyone else in qualifying?

Was the one were hamilton was about half a second per lap faster on race day, had DRS, had higher top speed, and still couldn't pass :-)

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#140 gillesthegenius

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 12:44

Was the one were hamilton was about half a second per lap faster on race day, had DRS, had higher top speed, and still couldn't pass :-)


And it was also the race in which Seb shrugged off his cold tyres to produce a magnificent outlap, in which he barged past 3 cars to save his race, after his team released him into traffic in what could have been a disasterous attempt - if not for Seb's heroics - to try and undercut early race leader Alonso.

#141 Jimmy

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 21:40

Monza 2008 for me is the only real "memorable" win from Vettel. Most of his Red Bull wins have just been a case of him clearing off in the best car.

#142 mnmracer

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 22:05

Monza 2008 for me is the only real "memorable" win from Vettel. Most of his Red Bull wins have just been a case of him clearing off in the best car.

Don't you think it's a shame that you color your F1 experience by telling yourself that?

#143 Jimmy

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 03:43

Don't you think it's a shame that you color your F1 experience by telling yourself that?


Not really - I don't know how long you've been following F1, but I've been following F1 for 20+ years (in addition to other motorsport series) and accept that it's impossible to remember every winner of every race I ever watched. We remember stuff, we forget stuff.

I remember Vettel winning at Monza in 2008, in the wet, in a Toro Rosso to become the youngest winner in F1's history. But other than that, I don't have a vivid recollection of any of his wins in a Red Bull.