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Red Bull launch in Germany


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#51 johnmhinds

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 16:01

And maybe that's what Mark's RE was telling him, to not back off too much not to push the throttle to the maximum.


Should he really need to be reminded how to accelerate a car though?

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#52 st99

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 16:10

Should he really need to be reminded how to accelerate a car though?



I think he was just reminding him what went wrong in Silverstone so he wouldn't do it again, I'm sure Mark already knew it but RE often like to remind their drivers just in case.

#53 spacekid

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 17:48

I think he was just reminding him what went wrong in Silverstone so he wouldn't do it again, I'm sure Mark already knew it but RE often like to remind their drivers just in case.


Reading this thread, it did strike me as a little odd to tell Mark this over the radio just before the race start - I would have thought this is the sort of thing that he would cover in depth with his race engineer... well, after every race where he has had a poor get away. But I suppose a little reminder here and there doesn't hurt.

I do find it odd that Seb usually gets very good starts and Mark often seems to have problems. Whether this is usually down to him, or his race engineers not giving proper settings I don't know.

On a side note I would love F1 to have manual pedal clutches (and manual gearboxes for that matter). I know that would be a huge backwards step in terms of technology, but given that F1 cars have had to be restricted for the past 20 odd years in terms of driver aids I don't see the problem.

#54 repete

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 19:02

Reading this thread, it did strike me as a little odd to tell Mark this over the radio just before the race start - I would have thought this is the sort of thing that he would cover in depth with his race engineer... well, after every race where he has had a poor get away. But I suppose a little reminder here and there doesn't hurt.

I do find it odd that Seb usually gets very good starts and Mark often seems to have problems. Whether this is usually down to him, or his race engineers not giving proper settings I don't know.

On a side note I would love F1 to have manual pedal clutches (and manual gearboxes for that matter). I know that would be a huge backwards step in terms of technology, but given that F1 cars have had to be restricted for the past 20 odd years in terms of driver aids I don't see the problem.


Probably because we are creatures of habit. RE probably wanted to convey that as just a reminder of what he needs to correct in his start procedures while going through his routine before race start, so it is fresh in his head and not lost during the habitual race start program.

#55 Ricardo F1

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 19:17

They both got absolute blinding starts and that on the back of the jitter tyre marks at Canada would suggest that perhaps Renault have played with something. The radio comment was played and queried on NBCSports in the US too, so it struck a lot of people as very odd.

Always pushing.

#56 Afterburner

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 19:46

If Webbers car has launch control then no one will protest it, becuase its the shittiest launch control ever and is worth 1-3 places for the other front running teams

Exactly. :up: :rotfl:

OK I've read some of the last 2 pages full of the usual RB are cheating crap with handwavy arguments and nothing to back it up...

The likely reason for this is that Mark had a "constant power throttle map". This was detailed by a Renault release earlier this year:

Renault Pedal Mapping#

Thanks for the detailed post, and welcome to the forum. :)

#57 baddog

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 21:55

" if you hold the pedal constant and the engine speed increases (due to wheelspin) the ECU will reduce the engine torque to keep the power constant. Basically doing something like a crude pseudo TC but it is absolutely NOT a TC because its open loop. "

Yeah that's a TC right there. it detects increased engine speed beyond the desired level (which can only be wheelspin or a failure) and reduces torque until the wheelspin stops. TC. Plain and simple. And how is it not closed loop when it constantly reacts to the engine speed by moderating the torque? It causes engine speed by applying torque, and reacts to the change in engine speed it causes, which is the very definition of a feedback loop.

Amazing that we were told there wasnt any with such barefaced cheek. At this point you might as well either force a linear map between fuel mix and the pedal or just allow people to do as they please.

#58 PayasYouRace

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 22:22

It's not TC because it's not reacting to what the wheels are doing. The pedal is controlling the power from the engine, so the control system adjusts itself to match. That isn't TC, as it isn't making any effort to prevent wheelspin.

Put it this way, if the driver is still demanding too much power from the engine, the wheels will still spin. It won't save the driver from flooring it like TC does.

Edited by PayasYouRace, 12 July 2013 - 22:25.


#59 NotAPineapple

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 23:03

" if you hold the pedal constant and the engine speed increases (due to wheelspin) the ECU will reduce the engine torque to keep the power constant. Basically doing something like a crude pseudo TC but it is absolutely NOT a TC because its open loop. "

Yeah that's a TC right there. it detects increased engine speed beyond the desired level (which can only be wheelspin or a failure) and reduces torque until the wheelspin stops. TC. Plain and simple. And how is it not closed loop when it constantly reacts to the engine speed by moderating the torque? It causes engine speed by applying torque, and reacts to the change in engine speed it causes, which is the very definition of a feedback loop.

Amazing that we were told there wasnt any with such barefaced cheek. At this point you might as well either force a linear map between fuel mix and the pedal or just allow people to do as they please.


Mate, you have a few things to learn about the difference between closed loop and open loop and then what traction control actually does before accusing people of cheating.

First off, like I mentioned this is a system thats available to use in the SECU for all the teams and it approves by the regulations subject to a few rules.

Second, the change that such a control makes to the engine torque would be well well below that required to stop the wheel from spinning. Its more of a useability/driveability setting than a performance setting. TC needs a very fast and very drastic cut of both torque and speed, a constant power controller does not give you that. It doesnt reduce the torque quick enough and doesnt reduce the power at all...

Third, there is no such thing as a "desired engine speed" in either this system or a traction control system. A proper TC monitors. longitudinal wheel slip and modulates the engine torque to keep it in a range which is typically 5-15% depending on the tyre. Key point here....if you dont have wheel slip in you torque controller, its impossible to have traction control The SECU doesnt allow torque control base on wheel slip.

Fourth, the system does not reduce the torque until the wheelspin stops. It doesnt know wheelspin because it doesnt know the slip ratio. If you had bothered to understand what I expained and what Renault released is that the torque drops because its a constant power map. power equals torque times speed, so if the speed goes up, the torque must go down.

Fifth, and finally. If, with this system, the torque somehow reduces magically enough so that the wheelspeed drops. Guess what the torque is going to do Einstein!!?!? It going to go back up again to where it was to start the wheel spin in the first place.

Really, it can not be any clearer than that. All I can say is that if you. tried to set this system up to work as a TC or launch control, it would be the worst most unstable grip controller on the planet. It has no idea what the wheel slips are, you cant run it open loop reliably beause as the track rubbers in the grip is changing and it doesnt react anywhere near fast enough.

And you want to tell us, with such barefaced cheek, that this system (used by every team) is an illegal TC??

Youre dreaming...

Not A Pinapple

Edited by NotAPineapple, 12 July 2013 - 23:07.


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#60 ensign14

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 23:06

unless 'hold the throttle' means ease off it rather than plant it.

That's what I thought it meant. Effectively letting the torque catch up with the throttle.

#61 MP422

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 23:26

stupid thread is stupid. All electronics are controlled by the SECU. All engine maps are cleared by the FIA and not changeable. You can't hide launch, traction, abs, whatever else you dream up anywhere.



Were you running around calling people stupid after Singapore 2008 as well ?, Anything is possible in F1. Speculation within this thread is fine as thats what it is intended for. It raises a fair question and to be honest i don't believe you or anyone else have proved beyond reasonable doubt that this is not a possible reason.

#62 repete

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 00:56

Were you running around calling people stupid after Singapore 2008 as well ?, Anything is possible in F1. Speculation within this thread is fine as thats what it is intended for. It raises a fair question and to be honest i don't believe you or anyone else have proved beyond reasonable doubt that this is not a possible reason.


Wouldn't it be your job to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that RBR are using TC, not the other way around?

Their has not been a single shred of credible evidence presented to show that RBR have TC. (in this thread, or the previous Canada GP thread)

#63 MP422

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 03:46

Wouldn't it be your job to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that RBR are using TC, not the other way around?

Their has not been a single shred of credible evidence presented to show that RBR have TC. (in this thread, or the previous Canada GP thread)


No, I'm just saying it's not a stupid thread. Just a thread for speculation.

#64 DarthWillie

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 05:45

So now we have confirmed red bull have launch control do we need a new thread to compare it with Ferrari's version? :drunk:
My tin foil hat is itchy by the way :rotfl:

#65 EthanM

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 10:56

No, I'm just saying it's not a stupid thread. Just a thread for speculation.



it's as stupid as me speculating that Mercedes run an illegal turbo in qualifying which self destructs at the end of Q3.

#66 Nigol

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 11:00

I'm not sure about 'as high as possible'. I think that when an F1 car is in first gear, there will always be enough power to spin the wheels.

Mind the 'once you can go full throttle'-part...;)



#67 mattferg

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 11:16

it's as stupid as me speculating that Mercedes run an illegal turbo in qualifying which self destructs at the end of Q3.


BEST. COMMENT. EVER.

#68 BillBald

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 13:24

My tin foil hat is itchy by the way :rotfl:


You're wearing it wrong. Not everyone can carry it off.

it's as stupid as me speculating that Mercedes run an illegal turbo in qualifying which self destructs at the end of Q3.


Engine note would be a giveaway.

Mind the 'once you can go full throttle'-part...;)


So, not talking about the launch?

:)

#69 EthanM

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 14:08

Engine note would be a giveaway.


as it would be for any form of traction control

#70 chrisblades85

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 14:16

Caterham have lodged an official protest.

#71 st99

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 16:14

Caterham have lodged an official protest.

:confused: What have they protested?

#72 Kelateboy

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 03:32

:confused: What have they protested?

Nothing. He was just pulling your legs.

#73 michaelmyers

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 00:12

:confused: What have they protested?

This thread.

#74 MikeV1987

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 08:43

I was assuming if he lifted too much the engine would bog down and he'd lose some places, these V8s aren't exactly torque monsters. You might as well question Ferrari about traction control too.

Edited by MikeV1987, 15 July 2013 - 08:56.


#75 BillBald

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 02:02

Red Bull launch in Hungary was much less impressive.

Any chance the FIA might have had a quiet word?



#76 tremolo

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 02:22

Yeah Charlie made Adrian remove the 4WD system they were running in Germany. Balance is restored in the world.