57 replies to this topic

[JHSingo]

So, I just wanted to gather your thoughts on this, and see if I'm on my own or not.

I just find it ridiculous that the FIA reprimanded/fined and gave a massive b*llocking to Conor Daly recently for performing a donut after winning a race in GP3. Apparently the penalty would have been a lot harsher if he'd done it in F1.

It follows Fernando Alonso being reprimanded for picking up a Spanish flag following his victory at Barcelona.

It is laughable, at best, that the FIA are so draconian when it comes to this kind of thing, that drivers are not allowed to celebrate a victory properly for some stupid reason. Yet at the same time, the FIA don't really do anything about the frankly ridiculous driving standards in GP2 etc where you have got clowns like Jonny Cecotto and Sergio Canamasas who, on more than one occasion, have deliberately forced a rival off track, yet keep their licenses. How does that makes any sense at all? Money talks, I guess...

What is the problem with drivers celebrating anyway? Who doesn't like lots of engine noise and tyre smoke? It's sad that the only place you can see it happen in F1 these days is at a place like Goodwood or on a demo run.

Championships like NASCAR, IndyCar and V8 Supercars have got it spot on, where this kind of thing is not only allowed, but actively encouraged. Even in MotoGP, riders are allowed to celebrate victory in the craziest of ways.

So what do you think? Has the FIA lost the complete plot?

[johnmhinds]

The reason the FIA gives for not picking up flags is to stop drivers picking up something that might add any weight to the driver or car before they get to weigh them. Though I don't know of any examples of drivers ever doing anything like this.

The no doughnuts thing might be linked to the weight issues as well, you don't want to burn off several kilos of tyre if your cars weight is going to be an issue, or it could be more of a team enfornced rule to prevent any kind of unnecessary stress on an engine/gearbox which has to last several races.

These might be boring reasons, but at least they aren't just arbitrary rules to stop the drivers having fun.

[Clatter]

The reason the FIA gives for not picking up flags is to stop drivers picking up something that might add any weight to the driver or car before they get to weigh them. Though I don't know of any examples of drivers ever doing anything like this.

The no doughnuts thing might be linked to the weight issues as well, you don't want to burn off several kilos of tyre if your cars weight is going to be an issue, or it could be more of a team enfornced rule to prevent any kind of unnecessary stress on an engine/gearbox which has to last several races.

These might be boring reasons, but at least they aren't just arbitrary rules to stop the drivers having fun.

The team might be worried about the weight, or possible strain put on the gearbox, but I doubt the FIA would make a rule banning doughnuts based on that. The more likely explanation is safety as drivers don't want a car unexpectedly spinning around in front of them.

[Diablobb81]

How many bumpers did JJ mistakenly destroy in his post-victory celebrations?

[JRodrigues]

It all started a few years ago when donuts were also forbidden in WRC. It was the usual celebrating ceremony for the driver.

[scheivlak]

To me, donuts are just a stupid, childish and annoying way to show off, so all credits to the FIA

[krapmeister]

The FIA does not condone hooning, nor the environmental terrorism that is tyre smoke...

[maverick69]

To me, donuts are just a stupid, childish and annoying way to show off, so all credits to the FIA

Lol. I guess you could also replace donuts with "Motor Racing"

[gm914]

The FIA would have an aneurysm if they ever saw Kyle Larson perform his victory celebration.
He does donuts holding the steering wheel out the freakin' window.


And if the problem is the car itself (weight issues etc) what's to stop a driver doing a burnout sans voiture, like everybody's friend Austin Dillon?

[scheivlak]

Lol. I guess you could also replace donuts with "Motor Racing"

If you mean that I rather like to see motor racing than donuts, yes

[JHSingo]

To me, donuts are just a stupid, childish and annoying way to show off, so all credits to the FIA

Let me guess. You're someone who likes the corporate press conferences too, and the fact that drivers can't have personalities these days.

The FIA would have an aneurysm if they ever saw Kyle Larson perform his victory celebration.
He does donuts holding the steering wheel out the freakin' window.

That was pretty cool, although I still think Van Gisbergen is one of the best.

[Red17]

How ironic that Nascar get's a ton of comparisions to the WWE, but when it comes to getting slightly out of the behaviour script the FIA goes much further than Nascar ever goes.
Even when it comes to enforcing tech rules Nascar does not waste time with lawyer talk like the FIA does. If it smells bad you are done in a week.

But hey! It's the pinnacle, they are never wrong up there.

[scheivlak]

Let me guess. You're someone who likes the corporate press conferences too, and the fact that drivers can't have personalities these days.

Thousands of people have made donuts. It's just so cliché!

[BoschKurve]

Fining people for carrying a flag after a race win is one of the dumbest things ever.

Imagine if Senna drove today? Watching him waving the Brazilian flag after a victory was an inspiring thing to watch and was part of his celebration.

[g1n]

The FIA does not condone hooning, nor the environmental terrorism that is tyre smoke...

yes you are right, lets ban all motorsports altogether then

[fabr68]

Fining people for carrying a flag after a race win is one of the dumbest things ever.

Imagine if Senna drove today? Watching him waving the Brazilian flag after a victory was an inspiring thing to watch and was part of his celebration.

I think the reason of the ban is to control some clever engineers. Allow it again and all of the sudden you will some drivers pull unfold a grandstand size flag out of nowhere.

[jimjimjeroo]

Get the mcmahons in charge then the show will start! Pyrotechnics galor!!

[CoolBreeze]

The FIA is an organization lost in their own world, IMO. They have silly unexplainable ways of dealings with penalty and punishment. It's non consistent, and always a joke. This is supposed to be a sport, not a strict business. Off topic, Merc gets away scott free for cheating, unsafe release from pits at the Nurburgring last weekend was only judged after the race, drivers can't perform donuts and entertain the fans, etc. No wonder i'm losing passion for Formula One the last couple of years.

[pingu666]

and those stupid fake flags on the podium

its become too dull

[pingu666]

oh ricky stenhouse did a killer burnout too, under flag stand, catches the flag while making a ton of smoke :-)

[MikeV1987]

To me, donuts are just a stupid, childish and annoying way to show off, so all credits to the FIA

Wow.

[wonk123]

Let me guess. You're someone who likes the corporate press conferences too, and the fact that drivers can't have personalities these days.



That was pretty cool, although I still think Van Gisbergen is one of the best.

Love SVG's celebrations

This is cool too! Maybe not really relevant but great video.

Rodney Waters

[Gyno]

The FIA is an organization lost in their own world, IMO. They have silly unexplainable ways of dealings with penalty and punishment. It's non consistent, and always a joke. This is supposed to be a sport, not a strict business. Off topic, Merc gets away scott free for cheating, unsafe release from pits at the Nurburgring last weekend was only judged after the race, drivers can't perform donuts and entertain the fans, etc. No wonder i'm losing passion for Formula One the last couple of years.

[Disgrace]

The FIA is an organization lost in their own world, IMO. They have silly unexplainable ways of dealings with penalty and punishment. It's non consistent, and always a joke. This is supposed to be a sport, not a strict business. Off topic, Merc gets away scott free for cheating, unsafe release from pits at the Nurburgring last weekend was only judged after the race, drivers can't perform donuts and entertain the fans, etc. No wonder i'm losing passion for Formula One the last couple of years.

I suppose that's the civil way to put it. I wouldn't say their dealings with penalties/punishment is unexplainable, though, as it usually depends on whether or not their own daft ruling is at fault.

Regarding stewarding:

When oh when are we going to get real, experienced PROFESSIONAL stewards? Currently this is a patronage position. Nothing to do w competence

[dau]

FIA is trying to promote road safety and cool burnouts and donuts don't really go too well with that, don't you think? F1 drivers are role models after all and if FIA wouldn't even try to cut down on what is perceived as 'hooning' in some places in their main motorsport series, their Action For Road Safety campaign would look rather silly.

Not to mention teams don't like burnouts and donuts either. Puts strain on gearboxes and engines and reduces the amount of rubber still on the tyres when the car's weight and ride height are checked after the race.

Regarding the flags thing, it's like johnmhinds said. Drivers need to be weighed to determine whether their car complies with the weight regulations. If they receive something between the end of the race and the weighing, there's no control over what the drivers are actually given. It's certainly just a flag, sure, but at least theoretically, they could be given some tungsten weights wrappen in that flag as well.

Edited by dau, 14 July 2013 - 10:30.

[SophieB]

It's certainly just a flag, sure, but at least theoretically, they could be given some tungsten weights wrappen in that flag as well.

I always wonder how Operation Flag: Cheat to Victory is supposed to work in practice. I mean, the car is underweight, requiring the extra sneaky flag weight to avoid suspicion, right? So Driver has to first win the event for it to seem plausible for him to collect the triumphant flag. Fine. Let's allow that it is definitely going to happen for the sake of argument and he won't finish, say second and be caught out. Who is going to present the dodgy flag? Have your own team member train for the seasons to build up the necessary accreditations to go work undercover at the GP as a marshal? That will take a lot of time. Bribe an existing marshal? Kind of risky if they blow the gaff... And if we're in a world with flags are allowed, how would Cheating Driver be sure he collected the right flag? Wouldn't there be more than one flag being proffered? And for that matter how is our crooked marshal to guarantee he can be in the right prearranged place, and not say, moved on to where the organisers decide he's better needed?

[Collombin]

FIA is trying to promote road safety and cool burnouts and donuts don't really go too well with that, don't you think? F1 drivers are role models after all and if FIA wouldn't even try to cut down on what is perceived as 'hooning' in some places in their main motorsport series, their Action For Road Safety campaign would look rather silly.

Not to mention teams don't like burnouts and donuts either. Puts strain on gearboxes and engines and reduces the amount of rubber still on the tyres when the car's weight and ride height are checked after the race.

Regarding the flags thing, it's like johnmhinds said. Drivers need to be weighed to determine whether their car complies with the weight regulations. If they receive something between the end of the race and the weighing, there's no control over what the drivers are actually given. It's certainly just a flag, sure, but at least theoretically, they could be given some tungsten weights wrappen in that flag as well.

Jeez, that post sounds more like it comes from a boring corporate automaton than a racing fan.

[dau]

I always wonder how Operation Flag: Cheat to Victory is supposed to work in practice. I mean, the car is underweight, requiring the extra sneaky flag weight to avoid suspicion, right? So Driver has to first win the event for it to seem plausible for him to collect the triumphant flag. Fine. Let's allow that it is definitely going to happen for the sake of argument and he won't finish, say second and be caught out. Who is going to present the dodgy flag? Have your own team member train for the seasons to build up the necessary accreditations to go work undercover at the GP as a marshal? That will take a lot of time. Bribe an existing marshal? Kind of risky if they blow the gaff... And if we're in a world with flags are allowed, how would Cheating Driver be sure he collected the right flag? Wouldn't there be more than one flag being proffered? And for that matter how is our crooked marshal to guarantee he can be in the right prearranged place, and not say, moved on to where the organisers decide he's better needed?

Well it is very unlikely and i said it's only making sense in theory, didn't i? Still, do you agree that FIA needs to make sure that drivers and cars are correctly weighed?

Also, why do people make such a big deal out of a reprimand?

Jeez, that post sounds more like it comes from a boring corporate automaton than a racing fan.

I'm sorry, i guess i should probably have put in some "FIA is a total joke! ", "They're ruining everything just because! " and "It's all so easy " to authentically impersonate a 'racing fan'. But you know, life in the FIA internet automaton office makes you forget such things sometimes. You try concentrating when you get fanned and fed grapes by naked grid girls all the time.

[johnmhinds]

Regarding the flags thing, it's like johnmhinds said. Drivers need to be weighed to determine whether their car complies with the weight regulations. If they receive something between the end of the race and the weighing, there's no control over what the drivers are actually given. It's certainly just a flag, sure, but at least theoretically, they could be given some tungsten weights wrappen in that flag as well.

I said that was the given reason, not that it was reasonable

Drivers are filmed from so many angles, how would you ever pull it off when you've got dozens of cameras pointing at you?

What happens if you don't win a race? You still have to go and suspiciously collect your flag and weights?

And where are you supposed to put any weights that are given to you anyway, you don't have pockets in your race suit and you can't just drop them in the cockpit for the FIA to find...

[ardbeg]

To me, donuts are just a stupid, childish and annoying way to show off, so all credits to the FIA

Usually performed by stupidly talented, often very annoying kids. Let them donut! Seems like someone, maybe it's God, maybe it's JT Ignatius, is trying to remove all the fun elements from sports. I should like it -- I have been saved from the damnation of sports by a sound eroticism, but I do have a soft spot for speed, so I'd hoped motor sport would be excluded.

[Shiroo]

IndyCar isn't supervised by FIA? Cause yday Bourdais did some donuts and nothing

[Briz]

Donuts are disrespectful and silly, bring the level of the sport down. Flags are nice, I miss that part...

[johnmhinds]

Isn't any excitement derived from seeing an F1 doughnut in part from them being rare, if they happened every week like they do in NASCAR then we wouldn't really care about them.

And once you've seen one doughnut or burnout you've seen them all really.

In motorsports there isn't really that much scope for unique celebrations like you get in a sport like football.

[JHSingo]

FIA is trying to promote road safety and cool burnouts and donuts don't really go too well with that, don't you think? F1 drivers are role models after all and if FIA wouldn't even try to cut down on what is perceived as 'hooning' in some places in their main motorsport series, their Action For Road Safety campaign would look rather silly.

I can sort of understand that, but I still think it is a stupid argument.

It is like that disclaimer you get at the start of all racing games: "please do not try to replicate this driving in real life and always wear a seatbelt" or something similar. Do people seriously have to be reminded that, and reminded they shouldn't do burnouts/donuts on a public road? I thought that would be common sense, although it is clear that common sense isn't so common anymore...

But surely, by that logic, you could argue that racers driving cars fast with the "Action for Road Safety" campaign logo on them makes it look rather silly too.

[dau]

I said that was the given reason, not that it was reasonable

Drivers are filmed from so many angles, how would you ever pull it off when you've got dozens of cameras pointing at you?

What happens if you don't win a race? You still have to go and suspiciously collect your flag and weights?

And where are you supposed to put any weights that are given to you anyway, you don't have pockets in your race suit and you can't just drop them in the cockpit for the FIA to find...

Well you could have pockets in the cockpit to slide them into. Or put them into your helmet after you've taken it off. It's not impossible - but i mean that as in it's not impossible to have Chanoch Nissany win an F1 race in an HRT on the Nordschleife. Seriously, i did write that it's only a problem in theory, didn't i? I don't believe anyone's ever going to try that stuff. Not only because of the difficulty to pull it off, but also because 2 or 3kg hardly make that much of a difference on the track anyway.

The question is, if you're FIA, would you want to allow objects of any kind given to the drivers before weighing or not, especially with so much money involved in F1 right now and teams crying foul about this or that about every second race? Or would you ban it just to get rid of any possible uncertainty, implementing draconian measures such as ... reprimands?

[SophieB]

Well it is very unlikely and i said it's only making sense in theory, didn't i? Still, do you agree that FIA needs to make sure that drivers and cars are correctly weighed?

Also, why do people make such a big deal out of a reprimand?

Yes, dau, I do agree that the cars and drivers need to be correctly weighed. What I am saying is for the sake of a highly unlikely theoretical means of cheating, the FIA is pointlessly denying the winning driver and fans a spot of excitement, joy and some iconic photos. And if they really did issue Alonso a formal reprimand, that's nuts. Three of them in a season equals a 10 place grid penalty for a race, after all. They're hardly meaningless. I think they just told him off, though.

[HuddersfieldTerrier1986]

Donuts are disrespectful and silly, bring the level of the sport down. Flags are nice, I miss that part...

That's hilarious, if only because it's such a massive load of absolute tosh.

[JHSingo]

Donuts are disrespectful and silly, bring the level of the sport down. Flags are nice, I miss that part...

What a load of rubbish. How on earth are they in the least bit "disrespectful"?

[gm914]

Donuts are disrespectful and silly, bring the level of the sport down. Flags are nice, I miss that part...

Donuts are awesome. Burnouts are awesome. The smell of burning rubber and plumes of white smoke billowing from the wheel arches are awesome. Watching a driver let loose and enjoy his triumph: also awesome. Don't ever watch NASCAR, Briz.

Flags are for parade floats and U.N. buildings.

[grunge]

FIA is trying to promote road safety and cool burnouts and donuts don't really go too well with that, don't you think? F1 drivers are role models after all and if FIA wouldn't even try to cut down on what is perceived as 'hooning' in some places in their main motorsport series, their Action For Road Safety campaign would look rather silly.

Took the words out of my mouth..

Amazed to moronic babbling going on about how the FIA isn't letting the ''drivers entertain fans'' after the race..If you think these superstars doing donuts after the race is not going to influence viewers ,then that would be the naivest load of crap I've read in a long time.

Edited by grunge, 14 July 2013 - 14:13.

[JHSingo]

Amazed to moronic babbling going on about how the FIA isn't letting the ''drivers entertain fans'' after the race..If you think these superstars doing donuts after the race is not going to influence viewers ,then that would be the naivest load of crap I've read in a long time.

Could you produce some statistics to back that up then? I'd be very interested to see how many road traffic of "hooning" have come from seeing a driver celebrate after winning a race.

[EthanM]

the ban on donuts in F1 was actually for a much much simpler (and dumber) reason: TV time. Bernie wants a tight post race schedule with the podium ceremony being as close to the race finish as possible (which is the reason they don't do a cool down lap at all in Spa, they just in through the pit exit.) Drivers stopping to pick up flags, do donuts etc delays the schedule. Has nothing to do with hooning and being a negative influence on impressionable viewers.

[dau]

Yes, dau, I do agree that the cars and drivers need to be correctly weighed. What I am saying is for the sake of a highly unlikely theoretical means of cheating, the FIA is pointlessly denying the winning driver and fans a spot of excitement, joy and some iconic photos. And if they really did issue Alonso a formal reprimand, that's nuts. Three of them in a season equals a 10 place grid penalty for a race, after all. They're hardly meaningless. I think they just told him off, though.

There was no action taken against Alonso, citing 'previous decision made under similar circumstances', but as far as i remember, a reprimand was the maximum punishment expected by pundits. But even then, you'd need three of those to get that grid penalty, that's hardly 'draconian', is it?

Well, if you agree they do need to be correctly weighed, how would you phrase the "without receiving any object whatsoever" part in the Sporting Regulations then? Exclude flags? Or how about keeping it as it is and citing drivers who pick up flags to the stewards without giving them any penalty; making clear that while it's not allowed, they won't do anything against it?

Edited by dau, 14 July 2013 - 16:26.

[SophieB]

There was no action taken against Alonso, citing 'previous decision made under similar circumstances', but as far as i remember, a reprimand was the maximum punishment expected by pundits. But even then, you'd need three of those to get that grid penalty, that's hardly 'draconian', is it?

I wouldn't say it was draconian, no, but then I never was claiming that. I just said I didn't agree they were 'no big deal', considering the possible consequences. It also suggests that in the FIA's eyes, acceptance of a flag is potentially on the same level as failing to drive correctly under waved yellow flags or being found to be at fault for an on-track collision, seeing as reprimands were meted out for those things this season. What I am further suggesting is that this is absurd.

Well, if you agree they do need to be correctly weighed, how would you phrase the "without receiving any object whatsoever" part in the Sporting Regulations then? Exclude flags? Or how about keeping it as it is and citing drivers who pick up flags to the stewards without giving them any penalty; making clear that while it's not allowed, they won't do anything against it?

This, except that I say they should just turn a blind eye altogether. After all, I'm not so sure they are saying they won't do anything about it, they merely said they haven't done anything up to now. They still hauled Alonso in to tick him off, pointlessly introducing a small sour note to his race win. Seems nuts for the FIA to give a hoot about the flags when after each race they don't seem to give a damn about the winner driving hugging their team through the fence. Which is the better opportunity for weight-related potential skulduggery?

[Briz]

the ban on donuts in F1 was actually for a much much simpler (and dumber) reason: TV time. Bernie wants a tight post race schedule with the podium ceremony being as close to the race finish as possible (which is the reason they don't do a cool down lap at all in Spa, they just in through the pit exit.) Drivers stopping to pick up flags, do donuts etc delays the schedule. Has nothing to do with hooning and being a negative influence on impressionable viewers.

I was not aware there is a specific f1 rule about it, thought it was a FIA thing? Which f1 driver did donuts before this ban?

[Shambolic]

Seems like someone, maybe it's God, maybe it's JT Ignatius, is trying to remove all the fun elements from sports.

I think you misspelled life..

[Dolph]

I always thought they didn't like the victory celebrations because of TV time. Look at how drivers can only briefly celebrate with their team before being pulled away to the official ceremony. What happened with Alonso in Valencia last year was probably their worst nightmare. The driver getting stuck on track and TV time a-running.

[Dolph]

the ban on donuts in F1 was actually for a much much simpler (and dumber) reason: TV time. Bernie wants a tight post race schedule with the podium ceremony being as close to the race finish as possible (which is the reason they don't do a cool down lap at all in Spa, they just in through the pit exit.) Drivers stopping to pick up flags, do donuts etc delays the schedule. Has nothing to do with hooning and being a negative influence on impressionable viewers.

You beat me to it.

[BRG]

Even the Tour de France can manage more celebration. Today Peter Sagan popped a wheelie on the lower slopes of Mont Ventoux when the main pack caught up with him. He was celebrating his almost certain victory in the green jersey points competition.

[bourbon]

Yes, dau, I do agree that the cars and drivers need to be correctly weighed. What I am saying is for the sake of a highly unlikely theoretical means of cheating, the FIA is pointlessly denying the winning driver and fans a spot of excitement, joy and some iconic photos. And if they really did issue Alonso a formal reprimand, that's nuts. Three of them in a season equals a 10 place grid penalty for a race, after all. They're hardly meaningless. I think they just told him off, though.

It isn't safe to have marshalls (or anyone else) running onto the track to hand out flags while 20+ cars are on on their finishing lap. If drivers want to carry a flag in the car throughout the race, just in case, that might be okay with the FIA, but pehaps the teams would not be open to it. To be big enough to be seen, it would have to be pretty sizeable.

They make nice photos, but those can be had, along with the joy, excitement and donuts at the street runs that teams put on year after year for the fans.